Thoughts on ****** Harrasment...

[2LaneCruzer]

I first entered the corporate work force in 1964. At that time, the language was much more subdued, even among men. The first time I ever heard a vulgar word spoken in mixed company, in the workplace at least, it was during the feminist movement in the early seventies...and it was spoken by a woman. The first "proposition" in the workplace I am aware of was from a woman. It seemed the attitude was that anything a man can do, a woman can do better. ****** harassment was something I never heard of then; the attitude was the women were able to take care of themselves if the actions were unwelcome.

After I took a position as legal counsel for a state agency, I was given the responsibility for the HR division, which included all of the discrimination complaints, including ****** harassment. Of those cases referred to me, most all of them were filed not because they were being discriminated against or harassed, but were filed to get back at someone or to protect themselves from a bad personnel review or a reprimand, or to save face. Of course anything you did after that could have been considered "retaliation", which was prohibited. It's easy to make an accusation, hard to disprove it, and the stigma never goes away.

 

[ultrarunner]

My first instance was holding the door open for a woman who let me have it... saying she was more than capable of opening her own door... I said not to worry as I wouldn't make that mistake again.

The mandatory training we had was all about what not to do and how to protect the company and each training started out with some astronomical amount paid out as a settlement for a harassment case...

Too bad the emphasis is on what not to do instead of what to do for a better workplace.

Now for a twist... the corp training film on being culturally sensitive is a minefield of things that can go wrong if you are not culturally aware.... even wishing someone Merry Christmas should be avoided and substituted with Happy Holidays.

One of our young nurses was in the lunch room telling other nurses about her wonderful weekends with her boyfriend... each week was another installment and often the most beautiful arrangements would arrive Monday every noon... really nice.

One of the male Docs made a comment about the flowers... saying she must have been very good or her boyfriend very bad... that statement in passing was enough for the Doc to be called in for sensitivity refresher...

Maybe Mike Pence has it right... never be in that position and take steps so it doesn't happen.

 

[Rock knocker]

P.S. It seems to me that in order to register someone as a *** offender, there should have been an adjudication to that effect. If I read your post correctly, charges may have been filed, but no action taken. If they pursue this, I would contact a good attorney; public officers can be sued you know, for doing things they are not entitled by law to do.

Yea, the dad needs a lawyer

 

[tcreeley]

I am a retired highschool teacher. There were many pretty students in the school, and staff people over the years. You simply trained yourself not to see, not to look, not to say anything, no extra smile or anything. The females were not looking for adult attention. Staff who could not "control" their behavior were moved along (fired, etc) out of the district.
****** harassment should not be tolerated anywhere. People can live and control themselves. I have no tolerance for these idiots who didn't control themselves, or who lacked the judgment to know what was the right and wrong thing to do.
What also makes me angry is that with our stupid politicians, taxpayer dollars were used to settle the harassment claims. Individuals should settle their own claims. Where public monies were used- those claims and names should be made public.

 

[EddieWalker]

From what I understand, a big percentage of people that are registered as ****** offenders are guys who where 18 to 19 years old who dated girls 16 and 17 years old, and her parents filed charges against him. Usually they went to High School together. Once filed, it can never be undone. I was 17 when I graduated High School and was one of the youngest in my class. I had several girlfriends that where 18. One of my best friends was held back in kindergarten and he was 19 when he graduated High School. His girlfriend was a year younger then him, so he was 18 and she was 17 their Junior year. It's been 35 years, so maybe it's time to start making accusations if any of them run for public office?

The second Gloria Allred gets involved in anything, I change my opinion to one of extreme skepticism. Now that we know her daughter is just as bad, and maybe worse, that will also affect my opinion on anybody making accusations. Sadly, it also makes it hard to believe anybody else involved in those accusations.

 

[downsizingnow48]

I am a retired highschool teacher. There were many pretty students in the school, and staff people over the years. You simply trained yourself not to see, not to look, not to say anything, no extra smile or anything. The females were not looking for adult attention. Staff who could not "control" their behavior were moved along (fired, etc) out of the district.
****** harassment should not be tolerated anywhere. People can live and control themselves. I have no tolerance for these idiots who didn't control themselves, or who lacked the judgment to know what was the right and wrong thing to do.
What also makes me angry is that with our stupid politicians, taxpayer dollars were used to settle the harassment claims. Individuals should settle their own claims. Where public monies were used- those claims and names should be made public.

Exactly right. I worked with women employees and supervisors at various times, it was not a mystery to me how to behave. Did not need "training" what I had was a sense of personal responsibility, respect for the other people, and standards. Gripes me that our politicians behave badly, then settle in secret using taxpayer money.

 

[ultrarunner]

Yea, the dad needs a lawyer

I went to his funeral this year... they took it all in stride... the officer said there is a court procedure to petition but he wasn't up to it... and it was not going to change his life.

At the service everyone got a chuckle when one of the nephews was speaking... said my uncle loved my aunt so much that not even the law could keep them apart... also said at a time when burning your draft card was popular or moving to Canada his uncle reported for duty knowing he had the love of the woman he loved...

Totally off topic... the retired couple I bought my home from was a 16 year old bride... she married a Colorado Springs Air force cadet... he was 18... the parents thought they should wait but they did give permission... traveled around a lot and had 55 year before Parkinson/Related took him...

Hard for me to imagine being married at 16 or at 18... heck... many I know don't get a driver's license until after their teen years...

 

[LouNY]

I am completely against actual ****** harassment, but so much of what is called ****** harassment has become plain and simple bull crap and I do believe that a great many of the accusations for 30 and 40 years ago are pure D lies and make up stories. I believe that a great many of these woman coming forward with these stories were more then willing participants when they thought it was an easy way for them to get ahead instead of actually being qualified.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Sometimes a passionate, consensual interlude becomes a rape the morning after if Mom and Dad find out.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I'm guessing it's maybe 50/50. Some surely valid, others not. A friends friend is an Elementary School Principle and he is just in the process of having his career ruined by some allegations. It's just not something that he would do. There should be extremely serious punishment for making false allegations, regardless of age, but that opens up a whole new can of worms. A legitimate complaint could be met with further punishment.

We had a science teacher in grade seven that we all made fun of, but especially the girls. He used to walk around the room talking, playing with his fly!

 

[bunyip]

One of our senior female managers comments on her gardener being a piece of eye candy but god help me if I make such a comment (about a female), thankfully I don't work in the same area.
I do work with several quite attractive females and my only problem with ****** harassment is that I don't get any.
It seems to be a one way street and they also seem to retrospectively pick on a celebrity although the catholic church is under considerable pressure at the moment.
I don't condone ****** harassment but where do we draw the line, apparently if I just look at a woman it can be misconstrued.

 

[Steppenwolfe]

All through the 80's and 90's I worked as a residential contractor, dealt almost exclusively with the woman of the house. I was young, strong, great shape, and not that hard on the eyes... Was also married the whole time with children. I can't tell you how many times the women I dealt with crossed the line. I never said a word, just played dumb... and stupid. Always told my wife we would have to watch out for so and so. Now for the past almost 20 years I have done commercial work, and deal with women on a professional level. It is always yes Ma'am, no personal interaction, and as much as possible over the phone, etc. I am very cautious of having women on a job site, and never one on one. I trust myself... but don't know what is cooking in someone else's pot.

 

[goeduck]

Legally we are innocent until proven guilty. Unfortunately nowadays in the media and as it relates to your job it appears you are guilty if accused and not given the chance to prove yourself innocent.

Having said that, all these men that have done these horrible things over the years are making it hard on everyone else. Harvey Weinstein deserves what he is getting from what I can tell. Same for many others but there has to be some cutoff statute in my opinion.

 

[bunyip]

The other thread Millenial Job Interview covers it with the comment 'I don't feel safe'.
The perceived threat gets legs and runs.

 

[Industrial Toys]

I always felt that a slap on my *** was quite the compliment! Of course, never from the women I was attracted too. Probably the same applies when you reverse the genders.

 

[airbiscuit]

I for one am happy that we are taking ****** harassment more seriously. Might there be some false claims? Yes, but prescious few. Most of the claims we hear about have multiple accusers, and they were often disparaged for having spoken up.

The best advice I have heard about staying out of trouble is "The Rock" test (Duane Johnson).

If you wouldn't say it or do it to The Rock, you should be okay.

 

[blackrams]

I for one am happy that we are taking ****** harassment more seriously. Might there be some false claims? Yes, but prescious few. Most of the claims we hear about have multiple accusers, and they were often disparaged for having spoken up.

The best advice I have heard about staying out of trouble is "The Rock" test (Duane Johnson).

If you wouldn't say it or do it to The Rock, you should be okay.

I have no problem with that, just as long as they do it when the "supposed" aggression occurs, not a three or four decades later.
There's a difference between being a ****** predator and being interested in ***. Tell me of one person on this or any other board that didn't ask some lady and then got turned down. Or, maybe didn't.......... Some of these accusations are pretty hard to accept. That is not to suggest that No doesn't mean No.

What it does mean is that very few of us were angels, I know I wasn't. Good candidates will now consider what they could be accused of (without proof) and ask themselves why they should put themselves and their families through such ordeals. Too many "ladies" were willing but now might have an axe to grind or political motivations. That goes for both sides of the political spectrum. As far as I'm concerned, bring proof or keep your trap shut.

Yeah, I've had those moments myself when I would have been more than willing to chew my arm off rather than wake her up the next morning. Not suggesting I'm proud of it but, most of us could be accused. Let those who don't live in glass houses throw the first stones or something like that.

Rams

 

[lennyzx11]

A few years ago, I worked as an instructor in the field I am in. My profession (construction) travels most of the time and when we see each other it's pretty tight knit with hugs (male and female) and a lot of camaraderie and drinks or dinner.

A young lady worked at the lunchroom at the school I was at temporarily who laughed, joked, and flat out flirted with me daily when I got my lunch. To the point of asking me out. I'm married and don't stray.
Anyhow, there was an evening thing at the school that was catered and she worked it. As she came by, wearing one of those chefs shirts white double breasted collar up tight types, I quipped "Nice Shirt.".
Next day HR has me in as I was accused of ****** harassment. I had counseling from HR, my two next managers, sensitivity training, and was forbidden to go near her again.

Some years later, I met her out and about and asked her bluntly why.
She said that she didn't want to report it but an HR rep had been near and heard me and had threatened her with disciplinary action if she didn't report my behavior.
Luckily, my superiors knew the kind of person I am from seeing me turn offers down on the road and interactions with females through the years.
Still rubs me raw to this day though!

 

[Redneck in training]

One of our CFO liked Porsches. He had large Porsche poster depicting the car and scantily clad beautiful young woman leaning on it in his office. One day one of the woman from accounting quit for another job but for some reason didn't like it and either quit or got fired. She came back and asked to get her old job back but was rejected. Being unemployed she went to a lawyer and sued the CFO saying she had quit because his door was always open and she had look at the poster. She lost but it cost the company quite a bit of money before it was thrown out. You can guess who won. Both her and our lawyers.

 

[2LaneCruzer]

Part of the problem is that most people don't know what ****** harassment is when they see it. It's not one remark, one picture, one dirty joke; it's actually a series of actions that affect another person negatively. This definition is close enough, given the explanation:

****** harassment


Unwelcome ****** advances, requests for ****** favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a ****** nature that tends to create a hostile or offensive work environment.

****** harassment is a form of *** Discrimination that occurs in the workplace. Persons who are the victims of ****** harassment may sue under Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (42 U.S.C.A. § 2000e et seq.), which prohibits *** discrimination in the workplace.

The federal courts did not recognize ****** harassment as a form of *** discrimination until the 1970s, because the problem originally was perceived as isolated incidents of flirtation in the workplace. Employers are now aware that they can be sued by the victims of workplace ****** harassment. The accusations of ****** harassment made by anita f. hill against Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas during his 1991 confirmation hearings also raised societal consciousness about this issue.

Courts and employers generally use the definition of ****** harassment contained in the guidelines of the U.S. Equal Employment Opportunity Commission (EEOC). This language has also formed the basis for most state laws prohibiting ****** harassment. The guidelines state:

Unwelcome ****** advances, requests for ****** favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a ****** nature constitute ****** harassment when

submission to such conduct is made either explicitly or implicitly a term or condition of an individual's employment,
submission to or rejection of such conduct by an individual is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individuals, or
such conduct has the purpose or effect of unreasonably interfering with an individual's work performance or creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment. (29 C.F.R. § 1604.11 [1980])

A key part of the definition is the use of the word unwelcome. Unwelcome or uninvited conduct or communication of a ****** nature is prohibited; welcome or invited actions or words are not unlawful. ****** or romantic interaction between consenting people at work may be offensive to observers or may violate company policy, but it is not ****** harassment.

NOTE: There is a difference between ****** harassment, ****** discrimination, and ****** assault/battery. You can get away with some things under the definition of ****** harassment, but you start groping, touching, pinching, slapping, etc. and you are in deep doo doo and probably better look for another job. Commenting on someone's blouse is not ****** harassment, although done continually, in a ****** context, may be.

The example given above, about the blouse, is, in my opinion, way out of line.