This is NOT a coffee cup!

[scruffy]

I'll be darned, I never noticed that! I don't know about the rest of it Twink, I thought I would post until Muhammad gave me the boot! Hopefully, when things settle down, I will be buying another tractor to play with. Muhammad would be the authority on VA benefits!

 

[WVBill]

I wonder if Rick from R&BManufacturing (Tiltmeter fame) can shed any light on bonding plastics. According to his web page, the body of his tiltmeters are made of ABS plastic. I know that ain't polypropolene but maybe he did some research...

Rick... Do you read this boring thread???

Bill

 

[RobertN]

Harv,
Try Gorilla Snot. It will hold the magnets to the cup, no problem.

It's really a adhesive for trim and vinyl tops. I have heard lots of Mechanics refer to it as Gorilla Snot; when I was a kid and first saw it, that was more amusing /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I have used it in the past. It stick VERY WELL on irregular surfaces and plastics.

RobertN in Shingle Springs Calif

 

[JerryG]

Harv,
I hadn't thought of that (gorilla snot). It's really name is 3M Super Weather-strip adhesive (SUPER is the operative word). It WILL hold the magnets after it dries. The original color is yellow, but they now have black also.
JerryG

 

[gordon]

Ok here is a web link to not the KL-650 but the even better HV-350. The reason I ended up with a tube of this is because I bought the Tube-Grip for small caulk tubes 3.5 oz. in size. I will say this that the Tube-Grip is money well spent. I use mine almost daily at work and it sure does make life easier. http://www.valcocinconsumerprod.com/

Now Derek and a couple of others have brought up some good ideas on glues.

Right now at work I've got the 350 and the 3-m trim glue with a screw in the center of a dab of each on the bottom of a gallon plastic jug setting up to harden. Will post results tomorrow if anyone is really interested.

Gordon

 

[Harv]

Gordon -

Thanks for following through with the HV-350.

You, Derek, JerryG, RobertN and others have suggested some really fine adhesives, most of which I never heard of.

This has become an intriguing pursuit for me, since I am now learning way more than I ever knew about sticky stuff. But please keep in mind -- when it comes to plastics and adhesives, there seems to be two groups -- "most plastics" and "teflon, polypropylene and polyethylene". The latter is considered the "non-stick" group for which proper adhesives are scarce.

Having discovered that, I have read a number of labels on various glues I found in the local hardware store, and although many are pretty vague about which plastics they bond to, a number of them, including Goop and most epoxies, state specifically that they do not work well with polypropylene.

Now, since we know that Goop works "pretty well", my quest is to find one that is "guaranteed" to work on our cup. It's taking me a while to track down the specs on all these glues you're telling me about, but so far I've only found one or two which make that claim. One is a thin liquid that requires a "good fit" (not likely between our magnets and cup bottoms), and the other one I will have to mail order when/if I make up my mind to do so.

Your gallon plastic jug is "probably" polyethylene, so I'll be interested in your results.

 

[gordon]

I tested the pull power on the hv-350 today. I used a three inch screw and glued about and inch onto the bottom of the jug. With the screw flat on the bottom of the jug. I let this set up overnight. Glue wasn't set 100% but I tried it anyway.

I pulled on the free end of the screw it took alot of power to pull this apart but it did come apart at the gluebond to the jug.

Overall rating on the glue would be in my opinion fair to good holding power.
I should have let this set up for more time before doing the pull test. I also used no solvent and didn't rough up the bottom of the jug---just flat out glued it.
Gordon

 

[Harv]

Gordon -

Thanks for your test results. Sounds like your glue will ultimately perform as well as Goop, which ain't bad at all.

<font color=red>***** Beginning of extra boring dissertation *****</font color=red>

I decided to try out this product called "Nbond", which claims to actually bond to polypropylene, rather than "stick" to it. I believe the distinction here is that Goop-like glues form a "mechanical" connection to the polypropylene. That is, it interlocks with the molecular surface of the material without really interacting with it.

"Bonding", on the other hand, implies that the glue and the polypropylene actually intermingle on a molecular level -- virtually a "weld" of dissimilar materials. Intuitively you can see that this would be the stronger attachment.

I spoke to a tech-type at the Nbond company and he explained about high and low-energy plastics.

<font color=red> If you didn't believe the first boring warning, this is your last chance.</font color=red>

"High energy" plastics, the most common type, contains a lot of electron activity which makes it quite willing to interact with other substances. "Low energy" materials, such as teflon, polypropylene and polyethylene, have little molecular activity going on and are therefore quite indifferent (inert, if you will) when brought into contact to dissimalar substances, such as glue.

The Nbond glue is formulated to actually "excite" the polypropylene molecules (foreplay?), thereby opening the door, so to speak, for a true reaction and genuine bonding.

Now here's the real sci-fi part (for those of you who are still awake) -- you can deepen the bond by raising the energy level of the polypropylene ahead of time by focusing the flame of a propane torch onto the target area for a short time. It's not just the heat, but the releasing of oxygen from within the material (I won't pretend to fully understand this part of his story). And catch this -- once this procedure has been applied, the molecular energy level of the plastic will remain elevated for more than 48 hours! No need to rush the glue job when your done with the torch.

The final result, after gluing and curing (48 hours), is a deep bonding, where the two materials have literally become one. (Kind of romantic, don't you think?)

Anyway, I've ordered the glue and will attempt the entire torching procedure as he described. My confidence level is sufficiently high that, well..., I might just pick up an extra cup at 7-Eleven, just in case. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

I intend to wind up with two completed Chalkley Cups -- one using Goop and the other Nbond. It will be interesting to see if either one ever comes apart.

<font color=red>***** End really boring dissertation ***** </font color=red>

Those of you who read this far, please signify by raising your hand. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[jimmoore]

WOW. X rated glue. After reading that post, My keboard is sticking! jim

 

[MChalkley]

Harv - Absolutely riveting! No, wait, we already said rivets won't work, didn't we? At any rate, my eyes were absolutely glued to the screen as I read your narrative. I can see you're definitely in a sticky situation getting those high-powered magnets to stay on the bottom of the cup. Keep at it, though - I can see you're not stuck yet.

I can't wait 'til you get a chance to try this stuff. It certainly sounds like it should work. Keep us posted!

MarkC

 

[Harv]

MarkC -

Stuff should be here soon.

Stick around...

 

[bpence]

A quick update on cost and availability of Aladdin cups.

First-you can get these cups in just about any color imaginable.

Second-you can get these cups in a variety of sizes - 20 oz for $2.50 ea, 34 oz for $2.75 ea, 48 oz for $3.00 ea, 54 oz for $3.25 ea. These are bulk wholesale prices. Could do better with a sizeable order and/or some negotiation-I haven't tried, yet.

As far as doing some cool logos, there are logo police at each of the tractor manufacturers and any use of their trademarks would have to be worked out with them individually.....probably a licensing fee involved, too. But, as far as a tractor image, if someone were interested, I have one being drawn (I may have another use for anyway) that the artist promises me will look absolutely terrific colored in orange, blue, green, yellow or any other color. Kind of a tough looking compact with a front loader, aggressive tires, and a couple of big lights on the ROPS. A blend, if you will, of Kubota, NH, and JD larger compacts into one look. Cost to put on the cup is almost nothing if held to two/three colors.

My contact at the supplier is getting me a full line Aladdin catalog since he thought there were a variety of lids available for this style cup. He was pretty sure there was at least one he could recall that would be just right for the application I described to him.

More to follow later.

You know, even though it may appear boring,this is getting kind of fun.



Bob Pence

 

[MChalkley]

Bob - Cool! Keep us posted.

MarkC

 

[Harv]

Just when you thought this thread was dead --

I received the hi-tech glue (PolyBond 33) from the NBond company a couple of weeks ago. This is the stuff that is formulated specifically to bond with polypropylene (like Chalkley Cups are made of) and polyethylene.

The recommended gluing process sounded complicated at first 'cuz it involved the use of a propane torch. /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif But it turns out to be quite simple -- you prep the plastic surface with just a few light passes out at the end of the torch flame (this has to do with oxygenation, not heat), and then a pretty good up-close blast to remove any possible parting agents or other foreign materials left over from the manufacturing process. This time the heat does affect the plastic, making it more "willing" to bond when this glue is applied.

Interestingly, after the torching you have up to 3 days to do your gluing before the plastic settles down and has to be torched again. A complete explanation comes along with the instructions.

The glue itself is a 2-part epoxy-like goop which comes in an applicator similar to what you might be used to with other epoxy glues plus a couple of truly nifty applicator tips that mix the 2 parts together on the fly. At first I thought this was wasteful 'cuz the tip must be discarded after each use, along with the mixed glue that's left over inside it. But when I actually started using it, I realized how nice it was to not have to worry about how much to mix ahead of time. Since it's mixed on the fly, you just just keep squirting it out until the job is finished. You use exactly as much as you need and what's left in the tip is really quite small.

Having said all that, being the clutz that I am, I put a little too much on the cup before I set the magnets in place, so the overflow practically filled that round recess where we're sticking them on. I thought it looked tacky, so I went ahead and filled it the rest of the way up. Like anybody's going to see the bottom of my cup while I'm tractorin' out in the middle of the woods. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif

It's a slooooowwwwwwww-curing glue -- firm in 24 hours, mostly cured in 48. I didn't apply any stress for 72 hours. Getting cautious in my old age.

For my field tests I spent most of 3 days bouncing my tractor around, alternating between my NBond cup and my Amazing Goop cup which had been curing for several weeks (I'm not that patient -- it was just circumstances). At the end of the 3 days both cups were still perfectly intact. Only time will tell the real story, I guess.

One thing I can tell you is that the pair of #41 ForceField magnets have terrific gripping strength, holding a fully-loaded 52-oz Chalkley Cup so solidly to the fender that no amount of bouncing or vibration has the slightest effect on the cup. I even accidently banged the cup with my elbow once and it didn't budge, yet lifting up on the handle effectively prys it off with little effort.

This may be my last posting on the subject, at least until one of the glues fails. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Boring pictures attached.

 

[MChalkley]

Harv - Now that's my idea of a progress report. Nice pics, too. (I just love anything that has "FOR INDUSTRIAL USE ONLY" stamped on it.) That sounds like the stuff to get. I'm definitely going to get some of that stuff if the excellent results continue. How did the Goop version work? Thanks again for all the details...

MarkC

 

[Harv]

Mark -

The Goop version is holding up fine so far.

I suppose if I was really serious about this I would just keep attaching and pulling the cups off over and over until something breaks, but for now I'm just happy to use them. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[toddler]

Believe it or not, I just read that entire post, with the expectation I'd find an address or web site to order an orange cup from. No such luck.

Soooooo? You guys gonna market this?

Todd

 

[Harv]

Todd -

If you read this entire thread, you NEED a giant cup o' coffee! /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif

I think we've gone about as far as we're going to with the cups. It was more of an R&D project -- we're not much into marketing and/or mass production.

At least you now have the knowledge to build one yourself, and maybe even add some touches of your own. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

 

[MChalkley]

By request (via e-mail), this is just a repost of the original cup pic.

MarkC

 

[MChalkley]

Repost of first pic of bottom.

MarkC