The value of the space programs

[texbaylea]

As an ex NASA type I frequently get jumped on about the money "wasted by going into space". The following is the best assessment of the true value of government spending on space and other programs.

The Space Review: Is space exploration worth the cost?

You may think that the space program is a waste but please read the article to the end. You may be surprised at what you read.

Vernon

 

[Ductape]

I'v never once complained about the money my government spends on going into space ! Alot of the other things it spends our money on, however.............

Excluding the military of course..... we don't spend nearly enough there!

 

[milkman]

Hey, we got velcro out of the deal, and my Tang stock went up, I'm not complaining.

 

[Tractors4u]

I am a current NASA employee and of course I don't have a problem with money being spent on space exploration, my problem is with the money being wasted and not being used on space exploration. I am pretty sure it goes on in every government agency, but NASA is the only one that I have first hand knowledge of. Every year we are told to tighten our belts because we didn't get the funding we requested. Then at the end of the fiscal year the managers are trying to spend the surplus they have so that they can justify the new budget. It would make you sick. And it seems as though the employees don't realize that it is their tax dollars as well. I don't know where they think this money comes from.

 

[texbaylea]

I am a current NASA employee and of course I don't have a problem with money being spent on space exploration, my problem is with the money being wasted and not being used on space exploration. I am pretty sure it goes on in every government agency, but NASA is the only one that I have first hand knowledge of. Every year we are told to tighten our belts because we didn't get the funding we requested. Then at the end of the fiscal year the managers are trying to spend the surplus they have so that they can justify the new budget. It would make you sick. And it seems as though the employees don't realize that it is their tax dollars as well. I don't know where they think this money comes from.

Brent

I understand your frustration. I worked the Space Station program the last few years I was there and the ISS was replanned and redesigned 3 times with the changing political winds. Unfortunately that is true with all government programs.

Or you have the situation with some politician who wants to get some TV face time will start ranting and raving about the money going into this or that program so let's cancel it and save that money. What the public never learns is that the contract cancellation costs frequently (almost always) exceed what it would have cost to complete the project.



Vernon

 

[RavensRoost]

Brent, are you at Redstone? Spent some happy times there way back when during my Army days.

RavensRoost

 

[Tractors4u]

Brent

I understand your frustration. I worked the Space Station program the last few years I was there and the ISS was replanned and redesigned 3 times with the changing political winds. Unfortunately that is true with all government programs.

Or you have the situation with some politician who wants to get some TV face time will start ranting and raving about the money going into this or that program so let's cancel it and save that money. What the public never learns is that the contract cancellation costs frequently (almost always) exceed what it would have cost to complete the project.



Vernon

Vernon,

I think it goes way beyond that. Anyone who has ever been in business is familiar with cost over-run, missed estimates, etc. What I am talking about is pure waste. Most of it in the infrastructure. I read recently that our center director's bathroom and break area, (kitchenette) was remodeled at a cost of $150,000. For a freaking bathroom and mini kitchen!!! We actually have a document that spells out how much crown molding a manager gets in their office depending on their pay grade! There is something like this going on constantly. Then when I hear politicians talk about a tax increase I was to pull my hair out. Cut the budget of all of these government agencies to the point where they have enough money to get the job done, but not enough to take their extravagant trips and upgrade their Blackberry every 6 months.

 

[Tom_H]

In a nuclear fusion reactor, one Helium3 atom fused with another Helium3 atom will give off great energy and virtually no radioactive waste whatsoever. We have no He3 on Earth, but it is ejected from the sun and the surface of the moon is the only place we can find it (It lands on the moon. Earth's magnetic field deflects it away from Earth). The highest concentration is at the lunar south pole. Can it be any coincidence that the new Constellation program will not explore various parts of the moon, but only set up a permenant base at the lunar south pole? The Chinese have not beaten around the bush about their intentions, their clearly stated objective is to mine He3 at the south pole of Luna (our moon's actual name is Luna and our star's actual name is Sol, ie. we live in the Solar system). Intersesting also that the first race to the moon served as a substitute for war with our communist enemy the Soviet Union, yet the second race to the moon may spur us to war with our rising new communist nemesis China.

One of the biggest problems with the space program is meddling by politicians. When the shuttle was built, those with economic interests in their districts wanted to make wure we would not go bact to heavy lift rockets; they wanted us to be completely dependent on the shuttle. Therefore, all blueprints, templates, and dies for Saturn rockets were ordered destroyed. Well, the shuttle turned out not to be what was promised. All that R&D $ for Saturn was down the toilet. Now we're trying to make Aries 1, Aries 5, and possibly an Aries 4 from modified shuttle components. Just this past week, a report came out saying that the Aries 1 will probably vibrate so much that it will destroy the upper stage and the Constellation CEV atop it. Any technology, once paid for and developed, should never be thrown away for good. That is sheer folly. Shelve it when outdated, but lock the technical specs and blueprints up in an archive vault.

Another example is the cosmic ray detector that is going to be left off of the space station. Griffin will not bend from the 2010 date for shuttle retirement. A cosmic ray detector has been built for $1.5 billion. It is complete and was to be attached to the ISS. There aren't enough flights allocated to send it up. It has the ability to find dark matter, anti-matter sources in the universe, and to unlock equations that could leap-frog technologies into the future by the equivalent of several centuries. The thing is, the Europeans and Japanese want their labs attached to the ISS so they can be on equal footing with us & Russia in terms of "status", though almost no-one now expects much science to come out of those micro-gravity labs. So, they were chosen over the cosmic ray detector. Also, even though Hubble is about to fall apart (Don't get me wrong, I love what Hubble has given us, but truthfully, it is on its last leg), public outcry made a bunch of senators pester Griffin to the point that he committed a shuttle trip to attempt one last servicing of Hubble, even though sending a shuttle to Hubble will mean no "safe haven" at the ISS if another Columbia type debris strike compromises the thermal skin. This cosmic ray detector is paid for and has the potential to give us thousands of times the payback that those lab modules or Hubble could, but because of politics, it will just be laid to rest in an old missle silo. Griffin says it is too expensive to send it up via some other launch system.

As far as what we have gotten from the space program, well, a lot more than velcro and Tang: micro-circuitry for all our modern electronics, EKG/EEG monitors, endoscopic surgery tools, cell and satelite phone technology, satellite TV. GPS not only keeps you from getting lost in your car, it lands airplanes in fog and means our bombs strike directly on enemy targets, avoiding collateral casualties and damage as well as keeping our own troops from having to penetrate and destroy targets in person.

As far as VR games, I can't wait until Wii is replaced with Star Trek hollodeck technology. Forget transporters and replicators. When the day comes that we can all walk into our own hollodeck and be in St. Moritz one moment, then on a Tahitian beach with Hula girls the next..... Well, maybe that will pacify everyone so much that it actually brings peace on earth and goodwill among all mankind!!

 

[grnspot110]

milkman, every old farmer knows; Velcro came from cockelburrs!

 

[Tom_H]

Vernon,

I think it goes way beyond that. Anyone who has ever been in business is familiar with cost over-run, missed estimates, etc. What I am talking about is pure waste. Most of it in the infrastructure. I read recently that our center director's bathroom and break area, (kitchenette) was remodeled at a cost of $150,000. For a freaking bathroom and mini kitchen!!! We actually have a document that spells out how much crown molding a manager gets in their office depending on their pay grade! There is something like this going on constantly. Then when I hear politicians talk about a tax increase I was to pull my hair out. Cut the budget of all of these government agencies to the point where they have enough money to get the job done, but not enough to take their extravagant trips and upgrade their Blackberry every 6 months.

Maybe the govt. should use the same interior designers that the U.S. Navy uses. Ever walk around on a navy ship or sub? Minimum square footage and instead of crown moulding, you get exposed conduit. No need to cut into walls to get to wires and pipes, they are right there in plain view when repairs are needed. Same basic paint scheme everywhere. Deluxe mattresses and beds? Try a thin mat with a foot and a half of headroom. Trident crewmen get to sleep squeezed in between missle tubes. You would never confuse a U.S. Navy vessel with an art museum or a house from Architectual Digest.

 

[deereman64]

Thanks for pointing out the article. I hope you don稚 mind but I would like to make a couple of points.

He talks about space exploration in general terms and makes some specific points about the benefits. The US is a wealthy country and if it wants to spend its tax money in a certain way then that's´ its prerogative. But there is a question is the money being spent in the best way? Apart from one situation (which I will get too in a minute) there is no hurry in space exploration. We are not going to leave the planet anytime soon and equally I don't think we are going to meet any body. Therefore it doesn稚 really matter whether we find condition x on planet y tomorrow or in 500 hundred years time. To me then the question becomes are we spending the money in the most efficient way? The space station, for example, is an exercise in feel good international cooperation. I am sure we could get a much better return if we all worked together curing AIDS or Malaria. Manned exploration of Mars is another doubtful exercise. Getting man there and back involves immense resources and great risks. One disaster and all the political will would fly out the window. In contrast, the Març—´ Rovers have been beavering away happily for years, doing great work and I m sure given a couple of more generations of development they'll come across some fossil and we will be told by the politicians once they feel we can handle the truth. In some ways astronomy meets our needs for the wow factor. I'm sure every young man out there thought it was great that there is a galaxy blasting another one with the ultimate ray gun.
So what is the urgent need? There will be the occasion when an asteroid takes aim at planet earth. The dates are doubtful but I do think we should do the preparatory work in discovering how we could deflect one. There are plenty of comets out there to practice on. Money would be spent and success would be most reassuring.

 

[Tig]

I think the space program is very valuable. If more people would look at things in the context of our place in the universe we would have less problems on our planet.
Just my 2 cents....

 

[Tractors4u]

Maybe the govt. should use the same interior designers that the U.S. Navy uses. Ever walk around on a navy ship or sub?

When I left from my deployment to Iraq in July we were replaced with a Navy unit. Before we left they went to painting every hatch (Navy for door) gray. I kept hearing "haze gray and under way!"

 

[EddieWalker]

When I was an Embassy Marine with the State Department, we did the same thing at the end of the fiscal year. We'd save all year for 11 months, then buy two of everything possible on the 12th month to make sure the budget was down to zero. We had supplies, sports gear and just plain junk piled up in storage that was a challenge to figure out what to do with. It's not just NASA, the State Department is nothing but waste!!!

Since then, I've always thought that is anybody really wanted to stop the waste, all they have to do is offer half of what a person can save to them tax free. Save the governement $100,000 for the year, pocket $50,000. I bet that it won't take long to fix the problem this way. Everyone envolved knows of dozens of things that they can cash in on.

Eddie

 

[shimp]

out on a battleship/transport ship etc x navy.

time for annual/fiscal inventory...

any items OVER inventory-dump em overboard....

jeeps, helicopters,etc...not in our inventory, get rid of it

 

[dooleysm]

Do not look to the Navy as an example of fiscal responsibility within the US government.

 

[dooleysm]

But I do think that money spent on space exploration is money well spent.

 

[ToadHill]

I'd rather spend money on space than all the give away programs the government has for those too lazy to work. And I don;t disagree with the programs for those who can't fend for themselves, only those who welch off the system.

I have a disabled son who could get SSI due to his lack of vision, but he chooses to work 40 hours per week and fend for himself. I just think there are way too many people who look for the least little reason to live on the dole.

 

[rox]

As an ex NASA type I frequently get jumped on about the money "wasted by going into space". The following is the best assessment of the true value of government spending on space and other programs.

The Space Review: Is space exploration worth the cost?

You may think that the space program is a waste but please read the article to the end. You may be surprised at what you read.

Vernon

Vernon- I thought this part of the article was outrageous

The school breakfast program was successful, increasing the number of kids getting breakfast. However, when funding for this program or this type of program stops, as soon as the last of the funds goes through the pipeline, the program is over. It has no life past government funding. There was no residual benefit lasting years after the demise of the program. I was unable to find an inspirational or motivational quality for the program leading to downstream business, economics, science, or other advancement and development. One could make the case that kids who benefited from the program went on through school to accomplish great things and I don稚 doubt that. I simply could not document it in my research.
​

The author says that there is no quantifiable way to measure the susccess of the program. This program did not put money in the parents hands, it put food, actual food into childrens mouths. Apparently the author has never been hungry. My daughter taught in the worst school in America made front page of the New York Times etc., worst scool in America. Everyone gripes about 'entitlement programs (and I also most of the time) but a kid that didn't get dinner the night before and comes to school hungry did better in school after s/he got a breakfast. This is one progam I do support becasue it does not give the parents any money it simply puts food into the mouths of children and it is NOT the KIDS FAULT their parents are poor and or irresponsible. It is not the kids fault! Boy I'm wound up now. I do not beleive for a second that there are no studies on this. Don't beleive it.

And then he goes on to say this

However, as with the entitlement program above, I could not find an inspirational or motivational aspect to Hoover Dam. I致e not heard anyone say they wanted to be an engineer because of Hoover Dam. I知 sure this factor exists to one degree or another, but I could not document it either.
​

I would bet the hole against the donut as harv would say, that many many people who designed and built the hoover **** were INSPIRED to go further with their education. I was in AWE of the Hoover **** and was INSPIRED at the engineering and construction. How many other civill engineeres studied this project and went on and took that knowlege onto other projects. That civil engineering project, those engineers, clerks, and accountants took that knowlege back into the world and built other "stuff" The Hoover ****, that piece of rock we can see touch and feel iS Inspiring, and the author's attempt to cast it as uninspiring begs belief.

We spend on Public parks, and no doubt our Public parks have inspried many many people to seek our a career in ecology, the environment etc. Especially young people who spend time in our pulic parks are inspired and take a career path because of the pubic parks. This is inspiring.

So when he goes on to say that "Only NASA" Only the "Space Pprogam" inspires is a lot of hoha. This is his career, he has blinders on, he needs to get out more int he world. Yes the space progam is inspiring but a LOT of other things we spend our public tax dollars on are also inspiring. We spend our tax dollars ont he Peace corps for example, those volunteres leave after their service and pursue careers, lifelong careers becasue they were 'inspired" by their experience. And I could go on and on and on. It is NOT just the Space progam that is inspiring. The below paragraph is hogwash.

Businesses were started and are now meeting payrolls, paying taxes, and sustaining economic growth because the founder was inspired by the early days of the manned space program, often decades after the program ended! This type of inspiration and motivation seems unique to the manned space program and of late, to some of our robotic space missions.
​

I am not going to quote his whole closing comments about the rate of return, because it is so long and honestly so lopsided and biased. What about the return on the investment of our interstate highway system. When were the interstate highways bult, the 1960's? The development the interstate highways opened, savings in transportation costs etc. I'll bet it is higher than the rate of return garmered by Space exploration.

So by now you must think i am anti NASA or the Space program. Hardly, I am a big supporter. But I also see where it fits in our public life, and see that other projects/park/programs/resarch are at least equally inspiring and in some cases more inspiring. I am truly Inspired at the medical research that is currently inderway. I am inspired that we decoded DNA. Personally i would close down Nasa and spend all the money on getting us alternate energy sources, and thow off the binding chains from the big oil companies and the non democratic countries who supply the crude. Remember the first Clinton Election "It's the eceonomy stupid" Well right now in this time "It is energy stupid" We are harming our planet and are ecenomic and political security is always at risk because on our dependency of oil. Well i take back my remark about shutting down NASA, however we need to publically invest in a huge way in alternate energy and if other budgets have to be cut to get us there then Nasa is not a sacred cow. Okay off soap box.

The article really got me, it is a puff piece written by someone who is a Space pimp, he makes his living off of exciting people about space exploration, so he does not want his ox gored. The logic (not) and examples he uses are not well reasoned. No wonder he was heavily edited in the NY Times. What a drivil piece. No offence to you Vernon for posting this. Don't take this personal, I am positive there are many good articles that make a legitimate point of the iportance of NASA and space exploration. The post from Tom_H starting with... In a nuclear fusion reactor, one Helium3 atom fused with another Helium3 atom will give off great energy and virtually no radioactive waste whatsoever...was excellent, and much much better than this article. See his post is something I can get behind. There is Helium3 on the South Pole of the moon? GREAT! Llet's go there! NASA Beam me up!!!, I'll bring a shovel and a bucket.

 

[deereman64]

In todays WSJ

Biologist Craig Venter and his team have replicated a bacterium's genetic structure entirely from laboratory chemicals, moving one step closer toward creating the world's first living artificial organism.

So as a rhetorical question. If we create life here on earth does this mean we dont have to go looking for it in the rest of the universe? Or Am I sailing too close to the wind here?