The Car-ification of tractors

[flwiii]

I have to disagree a little also. It truly depends on the type of plastic. Polyester resins with fiberglass or Kevlar are repairable, maintain their strength and can be modified with a little grinding, a little glass, resin and paint.

 

[daTeacha]

True enough, but the question remains -- What do you do 20 or 25 years down the road if the motherboard or whatever in your long living electronics laden tractor goes out? Has anyone successfully tried to get parts for something like, oh I don't know, maybe a Radio Shack Color Computer -- about 30 years old? And that one had electonic widgets you could actually single out and replace once you tested them to find the bad one. Or an Apple IIe that's about 20 or 25? I blew out a motherboard on one of those once upon a time, too. Can anyone repair or replace one now? I'm not asking why you'd want to, but CAN you? 20 or 25 years from now will enough people be wanting to fix a 4115 JD with E everything to make anyone stock or manufacture electronic parts? By then tractor technology will have bypassed it and it'll be looked at as a curiousity from the past that is no longer useful. If you had a broken 8N in 30 years, you could still at least make parts that might break, should the need arise, and keep the thing working. To my knowledge, there isn't anyone out there now who can supply you with something like an 8088 chip, a first gen Pentium, or any other not so out of date electronic stuff. So yeah, the newest latest highest tech tractors are great, but are they going to be victims of the increasingly rapid advances in technology as they age and the high tech parts go bad?

 

[cowboydoc]

A couple things. First you can bypass most of those switches if you want to and run them manually. Second you aren't replacing some complicated electronics system. The electronics could be mfg. and repaired by anyone with a moderate electronics background. Just as it would take someone with some with a pretty good skill to mfg. their own steel part. But it could be done in the right hands pretty easy. Most of the electronic equipment on the tractors is also nothing more than simple relays. Way more is being made of all of this than there really is. BTW have you ever had a machine shop make you a part? The cost is usually pretty dang high.

 

[SnoFalls]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( A couple things. First you can bypass most of those switches if you want to and run them manually. Second you aren't replacing some complicated electronics system. The electronics could be mfg. and repaired by anyone with a moderate electronics background. Just as it would take someone with some with a pretty good skill to mfg. their own steel part. But it could be done in the right hands pretty easy. Most of the electronic equipment on the tractors is also nothing more than simple relays. Way more is being made of all of this than there really is. BTW have you ever had a machine shop make you a part? The cost is usually pretty dang high. )</font>


I wanna add a bit onto this ...

I "wheel" suzuki based 4x4's some of the "computers" got made with a substandard part. So, yes, the computer can be repaired. Or you can get one from a scrapper.

The point about "machine shop" is applicable here. I can't "machine" a replacement part for an "antique" but I could probably fix your "electronic" part that failed ...

 

[HGM]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( A couple things. First you can bypass most of those switches if you want to and run them manually. Second you aren't replacing some complicated electronics system. The electronics could be mfg. and repaired by anyone with a moderate electronics background. Just as it would take someone with some with a pretty good skill to mfg. their own steel part. But it could be done in the right hands pretty easy. Most of the electronic equipment on the tractors is also nothing more than simple relays. Way more is being made of all of this than there really is. BTW have you ever had a machine shop make you a part? The cost is usually pretty dang high. )</font>

I'll add a little bit to this too... Some keep comparing the electronics on tractors to PC's,TV's, and other media type electronics.. There couldnt be much of a worse comparison.. It is far cheaper to replace any of these components with better quality updates than it is to repair one... Could you, repair a Commadore 64 if the motherboard burnt up..Yea, I guess you could replace the parts, though it would have to be much better quality(DARN!!!)... Like its been said many times here, there's no magic here...Mostly electronic transistors replacing relays=no moving parts, less heat, less arcing, no wear.. In short much more reliable, faster operation leading to longer life..30yrs ago, did you think we would all be here on the "World Wide Web"? Think about it guys, the stuff that is unimmaginable to some of you right now will be commonplace in 30yrs.. Again, I wouldnt worry about getting parts for something that most likely wont break.. I bet the same bearings and linkages will be the most troublesome on todays tractors, just like they are in yesturdays tractors.. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[SnoFalls]

to add just a *touch* of humor into this thread ...

Where's the button on the key chain I push to have my tractor go "chirp-chirp" ...

I mean, CMON /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ... sheesh the thing cost more than all my cars combined (and most of them have that "chirp-chirp" feature).

(and ya KNOW once one manufacturer does it they ALL will)

 

[willfick]

Ok, the thread continues to spiral out of topic. Unless the topic widens to include the possiblility that some rthings are getting better.
"What kind of life is it expected to have, given storage like in a book rack or filing cabinet?"
Basically (pun intended), forever. That is, it will never eat itself as acid paper does. As long as nothing else (moisture, paper mites, book worms, bookburners) gets to it, there it will sit.
Wm

 

[daTeacha]

Yeah, this thing has gone around so many times it seems like people are posting just to be the last post in the board's longest thread. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[flwiii]

Well, from my recollection, (which is getting worse in the old age) the topic was that Electronics and Plastics were going to destroy the tractor world. My remark about the plastic, seem to be on subject. The creator of this post (andrewj) stated that metal can be repaired and be as strong as before and that plastic could not. I just pointed out that it truly depends on the type of plastic.

Also, as so aptly stated by cowboydoc, the electronics onboard a tractor is not as complex as the computer example that is being used. Computers are a different world. No one wants to revive the old technology. They want more power, more speed and better graphics to play more realistic games, or produce better spreadsheets faster.

Just for the record, I own a fully functional Color Computer running OS/9, along with a fully functional first production Compaq Portable (not so portable). (Not that they are used for much other than as a collection)

IMHO, If the buying public wants to repair or replace, in large enough quantities, the manufacturing world will answer the call. As a bad example probably, they make all sorts of fiberglass and kevlar replacement panels for the mid 50's cars. This is done mostly to save weight and of course it is cheaper to produce.

In conclusion, it will all depend on the buying public and how bad they want to revive the older stuff. If there is a market, you can bet your bottom dollar that the manufacturing industry will not leave it untapped.

Wow! My longest post yet. I am developing such bad habits! LOL

 

[andrewj]

First, I never said these advances in cheap production were destroying anything, I just suggested that we consumers have lowered our standards from something that works the field to something that looks good in the garage next to the suburban.

Your comment suggesting plastic can be repaired as good as metal depending upon the plastic, well what kind of a rebuttal is that? "Depending upon the plastic?" That's like defending sharks saying you won't be eatern whole, depending on the shark. He may just take a leg or arm. I still ain't swimming brother!

A lot of folks can weld as it is pretty much a requirement on the farm (or at least have a neighbor within tractor driving distance that can) but plastics repair is a little more dicey. Are you seriously contending the regular joe has the knowledge, equipment, and confidence inplastic to perform repairs as easily as welding metal? This is just not believable.

Regarding electronics, I have first hand personal examples of electronic failure in a new tractor......you defend electronics in general, but what specific experience are you speaking from? On my new (150 hour 04 model) the dealer had to replace ALL the relays. (relays are sealed and supposed to be good for life!) and my PTO switch basically deteriorated in the first few months. (I have a seperate post on 5105 maintenance notes in the JD forum with a fairly detailed record of my issues, as well as things I am happy about.)

As for your point about us (or me) wanting "older stuff" Sure I like vintage tractors, but I purchased a new one. I want new stuff made to last like old stuff. And for the topic twisters, no, 'm not saying I want to go back to a life without power steering either, just saying I want some modern comforts like that as well as quality manufacturing. You guys act like in order to get a more comfortable suspension seat you are willing to trade off to spending full price for a throwaway product. I just don't get that. Even after the manufacturing apologists explain why my 40 dollar grill screen now costs over 200 because they won't sell you one without the entire front light assembly, I still ain't buying it.

</font><font color="blueclass=small">( Well, from my recollection, (which is getting worse in the old age) the topic was that Electronics and Plastics were going to destroy the tractor world. My remark about the plastic, seem to be on subject. The creator of this post (andrewj) stated that metal can be repaired and be as strong as before and that plastic could not. I just pointed out that it truly depends on the type of plastic.

Also, as so aptly stated by cowboydoc, the electronics onboard a tractor is not as complex as the computer example that is being used. Computers are a different world. No one wants to revive the old technology. They want more power, more speed and better graphics to play more realistic games, or produce better spreadsheets faster.

Just for the record, I own a fully functional Color Computer running OS/9, along with a fully functional first production Compaq Portable (not so portable). (Not that they are used for much other than as a collection)

IMHO, If the buying public wants to repair or replace, in large enough quantities, the manufacturing world will answer the call. As a bad example probably, they make all sorts of fiberglass and kevlar replacement panels for the mid 50's cars. This is done mostly to save weight and of course it is cheaper to produce.

In conclusion, it will all depend on the buying public and how bad they want to revive the older stuff. If there is a market, you can bet your bottom dollar that the manufacturing industry will not leave it untapped.

Wow! My longest post yet. I am developing such bad habits! LOL

)</font>

 

[Bird]

Andrew, I don't know much about plastics myself, but when my brother was a Matco Tool distributor he sold several plastic welders to paint and body shops. So you can weld plastic, but I don't know how many different kinds of plastic it works on.

 

[flwiii]

<font color="blue"> I'm having a light bulb moment (epiphany? what the smart guys call it)

What follows is a post by "Rambler" (Paul) which is completely ON TARGET! thanks Paul.

Electronics & plastic will kill the current set of tractors. Metal & bearings can always be rebuilt, but once plastic molds & a new generation of electronic building blocks come out, there will be no replacements at any price for the old, & the thing is dead. </font>

At first you agree with the above remarks, which led me to believe that you felt electronics and plastic parts were going to "kill the current set of tractors". This of course prompted me to respond with what I thought was a summation of your thoughts ( [Well, from my recollection, (which is getting worse in the old age] the topic was that Electronics and Plastics were going to destroy the tractor world.) Please excuse me if this was not the point you were trying to make.

<font color="blue"> I guess part of my gripe is we consume, consume, consume and treat everything as disposable. Durable goods seem to be extinct nowadays. </font>

Here I see a shifting to another point and possibly your real issue and the point you were trying to make in the first place. I agree that we live in a disposable society and it probably is not in our best interest. The human race has not been known for making the best decisions in many circumstances. I think (from a landfill perspective) that the steel parts will rust and return to the earth from which it came much faster than many of the modern plastics.

<font color="blue"> I guess the heart of my complaint is not just using plastic...not just using plastic and raising prices through the roof, but doing those things and (just one example) charging over 200 bucks for a complete side assembly when they realized they coudl make more money that way.

Or, another example, not producing under armor for the 5105 because they could make more money repairing the damage to underhanging electronics and gas tank damage than they could by selling a armor plate. are all you guys OK with that type of business policy? somehow it seems to run against the grain of customer service. </font>

I see a reiteration of the previous thoughts here. I believe that this issue from a manufacturing aspect is to cost versus what someone is willing to pay. Compromise is alway a factor in the manufacturing of some product. I've spent 23 years in the boating industry and I have know many design engineers in the process. I have never found anyone of them designing something so that they could make more money in repairs. What I always found to be the case was the engineer trying to meet the projected retail price the market was willing to pay for the product and still maintain a profit so that the business could continue to be a viable entity.

I think, after much re-evaluation, that your point is that we as a society are caring less about the longevity of a product (aka Quality) than we are about the Jones factor (how well it looks in the drive). I have to say that I believe there is some truth in that thought.



<font color="blue"> A lot of folks can weld as it is pretty much a requirement on the farm (or at least have a neighbor within tractor driving distance that can) but plastics repair is a little more dicey. Are you seriously contending the regular joe has the knowledge, equipment, and confidence inplastic to perform repairs as easily as welding metal? This is just not believable. </font>

If you can weld, you can do fiberglass repair. I can't weld very well, but I can repair fiberglass. With practice, I can do both. I would rate both as equal on the learning curve aspect.

<font color="blue"> Regarding electronics, I have first hand personal examples of electronic failure in a new tractor......you defend electronics in general, but what specific experience are you speaking from? On my new (150 hour 04 model) the dealer had to replace ALL the relays. (relays are sealed and supposed to be good for life!) and my PTO switch basically deteriorated in the first few months. (I have a seperate post on 5105 maintenance notes in the JD forum with a fairly detailed record of my issues, as well as things I am happy about.) </font>

The responses to the electronics issue I don't think I expressed well. My intent was to say that trying to compare computers etc. (high end electronics) to the electronics in a tractor are not the same. It's like comparing apples to oranges. As far as relays go, they have been around a long time. I had a 1955 Chevy in which the switch for the headlights was actually a relay that would open when it got too hot and my headlights would go out. They of course would come back on once it cooled down. This was not a completely sealed relay nor as small as the new electronic versions but it was a relay just the same.



<font color="blue"> As for your point about us (or me) wanting "older stuff" Sure I like vintage tractors, but I purchased a new one. I want new stuff made to last like old stuff. And for the topic twisters, no, 'm not saying I want to go back to a life without power steering either, just saying I want some modern comforts like that as well as quality manufacturing. You guys act like in order to get a more comfortable suspension seat you are willing to trade off to spending full price for a throwaway product. I just don't get that. Even after the manufacturing apologists explain why my 40 dollar grill screen now costs over 200 because they won't sell you one without the entire front light assembly, I still ain't buying it. </font>

Again, I feel I did not express myself properly. I was not making any statement as to whether or not you or anyone else like vintage equipment. My point was that it really doesn't matter what parts are used in the manufacturing process of a product. If the demand for repair is high enough the parts will be made available by someone looking to make a profitable business. If the buying public wants vintage tractor parts in large enough quantities, someone will oblige them. By the same token, if the buying public wants the new fangled electronic machines rebuilt in large enough quantities to make it profitable, someone will do that also. It's all supply and demand. Didn't mean to mislead you in what I meant to say. I think both the old and the new have their place and I don't put one higher on the pedistal than another.

Sorry for the long winded explanation!!!