The 1964 MF-135 diesel is overheating

[flusher]

While 4020 parts are as common as bugs on a bumper, 3020 parts are a bit harder to find and a bit more expensive because of their low numbers. A good friend bought a 3020 powershift w/ side console a couple years back. It had the common 3020 problem of a failed counterbalancer shaft. He tried finding a complete engine and gave up after a while. A Deere dealer near here put him on to a 4 cylinder Deere "industrial" engine that was a bolt-in replacement. It was a replacement for a back-hoe. The new engine is turbo-ed and 100 hp. Makes for one mean 3020.

FWJ: thanks for the 3020 info. I learn a little more each time I mention that I'm looking for a 3020. Does fixing the problem you mentioned involve splitting the tractor? I've sorta fixated on the 3020 because it met my requirements (be a JD, 70 hp pto, $5000 range). My backup is the JD 4010, 80hp pto and a few years more vintage.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

FWJ: thanks for the 3020 info. I learn a little more each time I mention that I'm looking for a 3020. Does fixing the problem you mentioned involve splitting the tractor? I've sorta fixated on the 3020 because it met my requirements (be a JD, 70 hp pto, $5000 range). My backup is the JD 4010, 80hp pto and a few years more vintage.

That coutershaft runs parallel with the crankshaft, and sets opposite of the camshaft if my memory is correct. I've seen 'em pulled during an "in frame overhaul". From what I've read, the 3020 used an engine design that was essentially 2/3rds of the "400 series" in the 4020. The 4 cylinder version had vibration issues at first that were dealt with by adding an internal balancer shaft. I don't have much personal experience, other than knowing a few 3020 owners who've done overhauls.

A good, newer alternative would be a 2640 or 2750/2755. They're 70 and 75 hp. First part of production on the 2640 was Dubuque Iowa, then this line shifted to Mannheim Germany. Very good tractors with a number of good transmission options. You will pay a bit more than $5000 though. 3020's have that classic "20 series" look too.

 

[Soundguy]

I heard that!

soundguy

Not a lot of profit in hoarding old tractors.

 

[flusher]

That coutershaft runs parallel with the crankshaft, and sets opposite of the camshaft if my memory is correct. I've seen 'em pulled during an "in frame overhaul". From what I've read, the 3020 used an engine design that was essentially 2/3rds of the "400 series" in the 4020. The 4 cylinder version had vibration issues at first that were dealt with by adding an internal balancer shaft. I don't have much personal experience, other than knowing a few 3020 owners who've done overhauls.

A good, newer alternative would be a 2640 or 2750/2755. They're 70 and 75 hp. First part of production on the 2640 was Dubuque Iowa, then this line shifted to Mannheim Germany. Very good tractors with a number of good transmission options. You will pay a bit more than $5000 though. 3020's have that classic "20 series" look too.

My 84-year old neighbor has a JD 2640 with an FEL (6-ft wide bucket). Nice old, beat up tractor that runs everytime he needs it. He's offered to loan it to me for the cost of diesel when I need all that horsepower. I appreciate his offer, but my feeling is that it's like borrowing someone's toothbrush. Tractors are too personal. And I have a pride of ownership thing that nags at me.

 

[Soundguy]

I always figure If i borrow it.. I need to be prepaired to fix it.. if I'm prepaired to do that.. I might as well own the thing..

Another thing I once posted here, as a 'theoretical' response to someone wanting to borrow my tractor...

" Can I borrow your wife? "

I'm glad to loan -myself & my tractor- out as a unit if a friend needs me.. however.. the tractor never goes out alone..

Soundguy

 

[flusher]

My sentiments exactly. I've yet to see a manual non synch tranny 'fall' into gear.

I've seen em started in gear various ways.. and I've seent hem pushed into gear by reaching over, or climbing off. Ditto again on the H/L shifter... odds of both 'falling' or getting knocked into gear at the same time are of fthe charts.

I agree on the hot engine issue. He's running out of 'reasons' for why it would / could be overheating, and is now into the 'grasping for straws' area ..

I'm eager to find out what the final verdict is..

Soundguy

I may be making some progress.

Decided to check the temp gauges. Used the pot of hot water on the stove method. My reference sensor was my meat probe with digital readout (a Williams-Sonoma gift from one of the kids). It's the kind that has the sheathed probe you insert into the meat. A metal shielded cable connects the probe to the readout.

Checked the first temp gauge that I installed as a replacement for the one I got with the tractor, which was completely shot. It has a Cold-Normal-Hot scale and is an el cheapo unit I bought from yesterday's tractors, IIRC.
As the water heated up the gauge stayed pegged on cold. At 127F the pointer jumped upscale to the part of the scale where cold and normal ranges meet. At 186F the pointer reached the start of the hot range and at 207F the pointer reached the end of the hot range. So this gauge probably has a real cheap movement with a lot of friction to overcome before the pointer starts moving upscale. Previously I thought that the pointer jump was connnected with the thermostat opening. But I've checked that the thermostat starts to open in the 180-190F range, so that pointer jump at 127F has nothing to do with the thermostat.

I repeated the test with the other new temp gauge, the one with the numeric scale that reads from 130F to 280F. It's a cheap gauge from NAPA. The pointer stayed pegged at 130F until the water temp reached 149F at which time the pointer jumped upscale to read 152F. Here are the (temp gauge, ref gauge) readings up to the boiling point:

(170F, 169F)
(180F, 182F)
(190F, 190F)
(200F, 199F)
(210F, 207F)
(215F, 212F)

Not bad agreement considering that the temp gauge is a cheapie.

So I installed the temp gauge with the numeric readout, installed the new 180F thermostat, installed a new engine block draincock. Filled the radiator/block with about 9 quarts of coolant (system capacity is 10.5 quarts).
Started the engine, ran for 10 minutes. Temp gauge stayed at 130F. Topped off the radiator with another pint or so of coolant. Ran the engine for about 15 min. Temp gauge still reading 130F. Top radiator hose cold. Bottom radiator hose warm. Bypass hose and hose from block to pump inlet are both pretty hot. The block is hot to the touch, but not painfully hot.

I know there's coolant in the block because I've drained the block several times and got a real gusher out of the draincock. Also get good flow out of the temp sensor hole when I remove the sensor.

Need to run the engine longer and see what happens. Work for tomorrow. The barbeque is just about ready for the steaks now. Bone apetite.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

I may be making some progress.

Decided to check the temp gauges. Used the pot of hot water on the stove method. My reference sensor was my meat probe with digital readout (a Williams-Sonoma gift from one of the kids). It's the kind that has the sheathed probe you insert into the meat. A metal shielded cable connects the probe to the readout.

Checked the first temp gauge that I installed as a replacement for the one I got with the tractor, which was completely shot. It has a Cold-Normal-Hot scale and is an el cheapo unit I bought from yesterday's tractors, IIRC.
As the water heated up the gauge stayed pegged on cold. At 127F the pointer jumped upscale to the part of the scale where cold and normal ranges meet. At 186F the pointer reached the start of the hot range and at 207F the pointer reached the end of the hot range. So this gauge probably has a real cheap movement with a lot of friction to overcome before the pointer starts moving upscale. Previously I thought that the pointer jump was connnected with the thermostat opening. But I've checked that the thermostat starts to open in the 180-190F range, so that pointer jump at 127F has nothing to do with the thermostat.

I repeated the test with the other new temp gauge, the one with the numeric scale that reads from 130F to 280F. It's a cheap gauge from NAPA. The pointer stayed pegged at 130F until the water temp reached 149F at which time the pointer jumped upscale to read 152F. Here are the (temp gauge, ref gauge) readings up to the boiling point:

(170F, 169F)
(180F, 182F)
(190F, 190F)
(200F, 199F)
(210F, 207F)
(215F, 212F)

Not bad agreement considering that the temp gauge is a cheapie.

So I installed the temp gauge with the numeric readout, installed the new 180F thermostat, installed a new engine block draincock. Filled the radiator/block with about 9 quarts of coolant (system capacity is 10.5 quarts).
Started the engine, ran for 10 minutes. Temp gauge stayed at 130F. Topped off the radiator with another pint or so of coolant. Ran the engine for about 15 min. Temp gauge still reading 130F. Top radiator hose cold. Bottom radiator hose warm. Bypass hose and hose from block to pump inlet are both pretty hot. The block is hot to the touch, but not painfully hot.

I know there's coolant in the block because I've drained the block several times and got a real gusher out of the draincock. Also get good flow out of the temp sensor hole when I remove the sensor.

Need to run the engine longer and see what happens. Work for tomorrow. The barbeque is just about ready for the steaks now. Bone apetite.

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

Just for one more straw to grasp at, have you checked/changed radiator cap? I believe oem was 7/9psi rated. Mine would "puke" a little coolant from the overflow under normal conditions with the old original cap. I installed a new 12psi cap a few years back. That stopped the overflow and made the temp run a few degrees lower (judging by the guage)

An old high school buddy runs a radiator repair shop near here. He told me any leaks, even a cap venting prematurely, would make a cooling system perform below spec.

 

[flusher]

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

Just for one more straw to grasp at, have you checked/changed radiator cap? I believe oem was 7/9psi rated. Mine would "puke" a little coolant from the overflow under normal conditions with the old original cap. I installed a new 12psi cap a few years back. That stopped the overflow and made the temp run a few degrees lower (judging by the guage)

An old high school buddy runs a radiator repair shop near here. He told me any leaks, even a cap venting prematurely, would make a cooling system perform below spec.

The radiator cap seems OK (it's 7 psi,IIRC), but I haven't pressure-tested it. I'll replace it if the 135 overheats tomorrow when I run it longer. I'll set the throttle at 1000 rpm and let it run until it overheats (or not).

 

[flusher]

I can fire up the 150, let it sit "static" and run for 1/2 hour before seeing temp guage get anywhere near operating temp.

.

That's good to know. Thanks for the info. That gives me a time-temp benchmark and helps a lot. I get antsy with the 135 engine running and nothing happening on the temp gauge. Worry about frying that engine.

Appears that Perkins diesels are similar in that respect to the diesel in my Kubota B7510HST. Normally when doing chores like toting stuff in the FEL bucket, the temp gauge on the Bota barely moves upscale. However, I know the gauge is good because I once heated up the Bota engine good while mowing weeds with the radiator screen nearly fully blocked. That lesson taught me to check that screen every hour while mowing. Don't want to cook that engine.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

That's good to know. Thanks for the info. That gives me a time-temp benchmark and helps a lot. I get antsy with the 135 engine running and nothing happening on the temp gauge. Worry about frying that engine.

Appears that Perkins diesels are similar in that respect to the diesel in my Kubota B7510HST. Normally when doing chores like toting stuff in the FEL bucket, the temp gauge on the Bota barely moves upscale. However, I know the gauge is good because I once heated up the Bota engine good while mowing weeds with the radiator screen nearly fully blocked. That lesson taught me to check that screen every hour while mowing. Don't want to cook that engine.

Diesels make real good power when they're operated at or near maximum temp. They quit making ANY power if operated well above max for very long.

It reached 101 degrees here yesterday. (calling for 102 today and tomorrow) I fired up the Massey yesterday to haul the trash cans out to the roadside. It didn't take quite as long as usual to reach operating temp It didn't take very long at all for me to reach maximum temp on MY temp gauge. Man is it HOT. (101 w/ 76% relative humidity.) Woke up to 84degrees @ 4:30AM.

Did I mention air conditioned cabs are wonderful?

 

[flusher]

Diesels make real good power when they're operated at or near maximum temp. They quit making ANY power if operated well above max for very long.

It reached 101 degrees here yesterday. (calling for 102 today and tomorrow) I fired up the Massey yesterday to haul the trash cans out to the roadside. It didn't take quite as long as usual to reach operating temp It didn't take very long at all for me to reach maximum temp on MY temp gauge. Man is it HOT. (101 w/ 76% relative humidity.) Woke up to 84degrees @ 4:30AM.

Did I mention air conditioned cabs are wonderful?

We got a break from triple digit temps the last few days. Tues: 58F low, 78F high according to the front porch thermometer. On Monday Sacramento's high of 77F set a record for the lowest high for that date which had stood for more than a century.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

We got a break from triple digit temps the last few days. Tues: 58F low, 78F high according to the front porch thermometer. On Monday Sacramento's high of 77F set a record for the lowest high for that date which had stood for more than a century.

Sure...Just rub it in every chance you get

And the AC in our office went out overnight. Well, it didn't go out, it was STOLEN. Thieves snatched the compressor unit off the roof. That's getting to be a common occurance. The copper is worth so much nowdays. I'm going to go sit in my truck w/ AC on.

 

[Soundguy]

Welll.. I guess it did 'go out'

i know what you mean about theives.

We have a case 721 wheel loader someone came in and stole the quick couple that was hooked up to it.. Now we have the laoder and ACS setup bucket.. and no way to attach them. i just got off the phone with the case dealer.. new QC is 7k$!!! Looking for a used one now!!

Also.. burglery is getting bad in this area as economic times are getting tight.

More break ins in the townnorth of us.. and 2 homes in our community were hit within the last month.

I let my dogs run the property now ( fenced ) for extra security.. vs keeping them kenneled at night.. neighbor is doing the same..

Soundguy

Sure...Just rub it in every chance you get

And the AC in our office went out overnight. Well, it didn't go out, it was STOLEN. Thieves snatched the compressor unit off the roof. That's getting to be a common occurance. The copper is worth so much nowdays. I'm going to go sit in my truck w/ AC on.

 

[flusher]

Sure...Just rub it in every chance you get

And the AC in our office went out overnight. Well, it didn't go out, it was STOLEN. Thieves snatched the compressor unit off the roof. That's getting to be a common occurance. The copper is worth so much nowdays. I'm going to go sit in my truck w/ AC on.

Sorry about that A/C theft. Can't keep the bad guys from getting what they set their minds to.

So, I ran the 135 for 30 minutes today with the tractor sitting in the driveway idling at 1100 rpm. The temp gauge didn't move. No overheating. The top radiator hose, the bypass hose and the hose between the block and the water pump inlet all warm to the touch. The bottom radiator hose at room temperature. About a half cup of coolant came out of the radiator overflow about 10 minutes after start of engine (I suppose this was when the thermostat opened).

I'm pretty sure I know what happened before, and it's embarrasing. When I changed the thermostat the first time I forgot to remove the peel-off plastic film on the gasket. When the thermostat opened, I lost a big chunk of coolant through that badly installed gasket. I was driving in the field when I saw the temp gauge go into the hot zone so I high-tailed it back to the garage. By that time I was getting coolant out the radiator overflow in great abundance. I failed to notice the leak around the thermostat housing.

When I removed the thermostat to check it out in the boiling water, sure enough there was that piece of plastic. It took me a while to put two and two together. The previous owner says he never had an overheating problem and I believe him. So it had to be something I did. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Oh well, I learned a lot about the 135 cooling system.

Got a scare while the 135 was running. I have the exhaust stack vertical now and noticed that when the exhaust stream is viewed with Sun backlighting it looks wispy white. Against the blue sky the exhaust is invisible. Thought for a moment that the white smoke means water in the cylinders. Don't think this is the case. I have one of those test kits that checks for exhaust gases in the radiator. I'll check this out later.

With the crud cleaned out of the air passages, that radiator must be super efficient. Of course I was only running at 1100 rpm. PTO speed is 1700 rpm so at that speed I expect the temp gauge to read upscale a little.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Well, at least you KNOW the cooling system is clean now.... We've all done things like that. My latest one was spending 1/2 hour looking for my glasses. Found 'em in the strangest place. ON MY FACE.

My Perkins/Massey has shows a little white in the exhaust until its fully warmed up for 36 out of its 36 years whenever I run it in humid weather, which is 364 days out of the year here in Kentucky.

 

[flusher]

Well, at least you KNOW the cooling system is clean now.... .

That's for sure.

Next job: reinstall the sheet metal and lights on the 135 and take some photos. Also need to get a set of seat cushions for the metal bucket seat.

Thanks to all for your help.