Thanks to George...

[JOR_EL]

Hess,

[[[1) Most Americans believe that their generation received a better education than the students of today (regardless o their age).]]]

This observation would seem to require a defining of "better". It also leads to the next question, ...which (if any) of them are CORRECT in their belief?

[[[2) Most Americans give our educational system a rating of "poor," but consider the school district in which they live to be "very good."]]]

...and their team to be "number 1", and their candidate to be "the best choice", etc. (never mind their RELIGION /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif ). Not surprising, given human nature, ...but how significant??

[[[In addition, students today are exposed to a wealth of knowledge and technology that far exceeds what students of our two generations combined (remember Atari's Pong?). ]]]

The world has always offered any student more than he can store, digest, or utilize.
The question is what PORTION of the available knowledge is fundamental to a fulfilling and productive life AS A CONTRIBUTING MEMBER OF SOCIETY, ...and whether-or-not that portion is, in fact, being imparted to today's student within today's system?

Does society benefit more from a conceptual-thinker/communicator, or a video game "whiz"? From a student who thinks "striving" is laudible, or one who thinks "I'm just-as-good no matter what I do(or don't)!"

There is a reason for the use of the term fundamental. It's not just "knowledge".

An infinity of things can be stuffed in a head. Or it can be left empty. The wise selection of those things which SHOULD be stuffed-in, and the accomplishment of the "stuffing" is what the education-system is supposed to accomplish (supposed to = believed to, supposed to = should).

Is it happening? Let's see. Pass the pudding.

Larry

 

[hess]

JOR EL,

I agree with you on the point that our human nature, or at least our sociological predisposition leads us to believe that our choices, experiences, upbringing, etc., are fundamentally better than somebody else's.

As to whether this is correct or significant, I do not know - I was simply responding to Wingnut's claim that he received a far better education than most of the students who are coming out of high school today.

With regards to the wealth of information and technology that was unavailable to yesterday's students, I was merely trying to point out that in some ways today's students are more literate, creative, informed and educated than I was coming out of high school (and I suspect Wingnut, as well).

However, you made an interesting point about knowledge being relevant, and how well it is being assimilated by our students.

I can only say that we are still producing the best and the brightest in the world today. But before I get a lot of grief from the prognosticators of doom, I would like to mention that our educational system is based on the idea that everyone is entitled to a fair and equal education.

We do not have a system, as do many countries in Europe, in which the academically challenged are limited to vocational or trade schools. Nor, and I imagine this is news to 98% of Americans, do we decide for our students which subjects to study, as do many European countries. Typically, at about the age of 14, the better students are tracked along specific subject areas. For example, a student who scores well in science, might attend a school in which their entire curriculum revolves around an intense focus on biology, chemistry, physics and mathematics. Another student may be immersed in literature and the arts.

Hence, many Europeans score far better than their American counterparts on standardized tests at this age. I have seen some of the tests while attending grad school, and believe me, the science questions would be tough for 2nd or 3rd year college students. They really train them well.

But our system is based on Benjamin Franklin's model, and his belief in the "well-rounded individual." We attempt to teach everything to everyone (fair and equal).

However, once our students matriculate to college, WE CATCH UP. And, we are capable of changing our minds, our majors, and even our careers, because we have received a well-rounded education.

So, we should be cognizant of these facts when comparing test scores with students from other countries.

After all, we have the best system of colleges and universities in the world. Which is why people from all over the globe come here to learn.

By the way, the Japanese go to school approximately 250 days/year vs. 180 days/year here in the U.S., which is one of the lowest numbers in the developed world.

Incidentally, when the issue of year-round schooling has been proposed in various school districts in the past, there has been an outcry from parents, horrified that "Junior" will be forced to miss out on those glorious, and endless days of summer that every child should be entitled to.

hess

 

[JOR_EL]

Hi Hess /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Well, somewhere between the "prognosticators of doom" and the "wearers of rose-colored glasses", I would venture, lies reality( speaking conventionally, ...leaving multiple-reality theories aside).

I certainly support the well-rounded approach, up until the age of self-directed choice, as to any specialization.

I have not meant to compare our system to the "high-pressure" Japanese model, nor European practice. My comparisons were between the students my generation were, vs the students today's generation are, ...once again, speaking "fundamentally", and now that I think specifically-of-it, at the high-school graduate level.

Unless you contend that there is NO decrease in today's high schoolers'(as a group) relative grasp of the fundamentals (if you agree that such exist?!), then the "catching-up" that "we" do (at the college level) must be a marvelous accomplishment indeed. I certainly hope you are right.

If you don't mind my asking, by what yardstick or authority do you determine that we are "still (as in "in spite-of-everything"?) producing the best and brightest...."?

And if that is true, how does the "average" US student compare with those of other (developed) countries (leaving out the "cream" of both crops)?

I agree that there is more to life than sitting in a classroom, so would not subscribe to adding schooldays to the calendar every time some other country/culture"raises the bar" by doing so. At some point there is a line between doing FOR our youngster, ...and doing TO them.

My hope would be to maximize the BENEFIT of the time spent in school, (which is what I believe our common/national goal to be) while acknowledging the value of other-than-classroom experience.

Larry

 

[skent]

Remember when our grandparents, great-grandparents, and such stated that they only had an 8th grade education? Well check this out. Could any of us have passed the 8th grade in 1895? This is the eighth-grade final exam from 1895 Salina, KS. USA. It was taken from the original document on file at
the Smokey Valley Genealogical Society and Library in Salina, KS and reprinted by the Salina Journal.

8th Grade Final Exam: Salina, KS - 1895

Grammar ( Time, one hour )
1. Give nine rules for the use of Capital Letters.
2. Name the Parts of Speech and define those that have no modifications.
3. Define Verse, Stanza and Paragraph.
4. What are the Principal Parts of a verb? Give Principal Parts of do, lie, lay and run.
5. Define Case, Illustrate each Case.
6. What is Punctuation? Give rules for principal marks of Punctuation.
7. Write a composition of about 150 words and show therein that you understand the practical use of the rules of grammar.

Arithmetic ( Time, 1.25 hours )
1. Name and define the Fundamental Rules of Arithmetic.
2. A wagon box is 2 ft. deep, 10 feet long, and 3 ft. wide. How many bushels of wheat will it hold?
3. If a load of wheat weighs 3942 lbs., what is it worth at 50 cts. bushel, deducting 1050 lbs. for tare?
4. District No. 33 has a valuation of $35,000. What is the necessary levy to carry on a school seven months at $50 per month, and have $104 for incidentals?
5. Find cost of 6720 lbs. coal at $6.00 per ton.
6. Find the interest of $512.60 for 8 months and 18 days at 7 percent.
7. What is the cost of 40 boards 12 inches wide and 16 ft. long at $20 per metre?
8. Find bank discount on $300 for 90 days (no grace) at 10 percent.
9. What is the cost of a square farm at $15 per are, the distance around which is 640 rods?
10. Write a Bank Check, a Promissory Note, and a Receipt.

U.S. History ( Time, 45 minutes )
1. Give the epochs into which U.S. History is divided.
2. Give an account of the discovery of America by Columbus.
3. Relate the causes and results of the Revolutionary War.
4. Show the territorial growth of the United States.
5. Tell what you can of the history of Kansas.
6. Describe three of the most prominent battles of the Rebellion.
7. Who were the following: Morse, Whitney, Fulton, Bell, Lincoln, Penn and Howe?
8. Name events connected with the following dates: 1607, 1620, 1800, 1849 and 1865.

Orthography ( Time, one hour )
1. What is meant by the following: Alphabet, phonetic, orthography, etymology, syllabication?
2. What are elementary sounds? How classified?
3. What are the following, and give examples of each: Trigraph, subvocals, diphthong, cognate letters, linguals?
4. Give four substitutes for caret 'u'.
5. Give two rules for spelling words with final 'e'. Name two exceptions under each rule.
6. Give two uses of silent letters in spelling. Illustrate each.
7. Define the following prefixes and use in connection with a word: Bi, dis, mis, pre, semi, post, non, inter, mono, sup
8. Mark diacritically and divide into syllables the following, and name the sign that indicates the sound:
Card, ball, mercy, sir, odd, cell, rise, blood, fare, last.
9. Use the following correctly in sentences, cite, site, sight, fane, lain, feign, vane, vain, vein, raze, raise, rays.
10. Write 10 words frequently mispronounced and indicate pronunciation by use of diacritical marks and by syllabication.

Geography ( Time, one hour )
1. What is climate? Upon what does climate depend?
2. How do you account for the extremes of climate in Kansas?
3. Of what use are rivers? Of what use is the ocean?
4. Describe the mountains of North America.
5. Name and describe the following: Monrovia, Odessa, Denver, Manitoba, Hecla, Yukon, St. Helena, Juan Fermandez, Aspinwall and Orinoco.
6. Name and locate the principal trade centers of the U.S.
7. Name all the republics of Europe and give capital of each.
8. Why is the Atlantic Coast colder than the Pacific in the same latitude?
9. Describe the process by which the water of the ocean returns to the sources of rivers.
10. Describe the movements of the earth. Give inclination of the earth.

Gives the saying of an early 20th century person that "she/he only had an 8th grade education" a whole new meaning!



Steve

 

[ddl]

I went to a conference and the speaker made the statement that found out what was wrong with todays education, was that no one wanted to teach "rulers". Which meant that no one wanted to teach the basics, everone wants to teach what they had just learned in college. What they forget is that in order to learn the new they had a basic knowledge already. If you think about education as a triangle, a wide base and as you are educated the triangle gets smaller. In todays education model, they turn the triangle un side down, trying to teach too much of the advance material without a strong basics so the student can learn the new.

So they guess everyone should be asking is who is teaching rulers?

Dan L

 

[cowboydoc]

Larry,
Just to clarify the Japanese system is not high pressure. The Japanese do go to school longer days and more days but their day is filled with frequent breaks, numerous activities, and learning. On every test that has been given in the last 25 years it is Americans who have scored higher on percieved stress, pressure, and discontent with school. The Japanese have an excellent school system and their success is also dependent on the fact that in their culture parents are more consistent and involved in their childrens education than American parents are. The myth of Japanese kids being put through a high pressure system is false though.

 

[JOR_EL]

Hi CowboyDoc,

Never been to Japan/ known any Japanese, ..so I appreciate the input on their ed. system.

Guess I have been guilty of bying into the image of uniformed little robots, trained since birth to be "team players"(as opposed to individuals), doing jumping-jacks while chanting their school song, and "family honor"-bound to commit hari-kari if they fail to excell.

Probably the fact that I was a youngster during WWII has something to do with the impressions I grew up with.

I'm left to wonder, though, ...is the lower stress level simply indicative of the fact that, if you've been brought up for it, its easier (more comfortable) being a "lock-step" cabbage, than to deal with your(and everyone else's individuality/differences?

Anyway, glad their system works for them.

I'd be interested in any more comments-thanks /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Larry

 

[JOR_EL]

Steve,

Thanks for the great (and refreshing) glimpse of past standards!!
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

My favorite technical books are turn-of-the-century publications, written by the adults (with even more of that kind of an education) that those 1895 8th graders had become.

Thats what I call a real educational foundation!
Everything else comes easier if you REALLY have the fundamentals down!

How this fact has been lost sight-of is a mystery to me, and the "shame" of our educational system.

Those kinds of REAL STANDARDS are what made the generations of a few years back, "America's Finest"! (wonder whether Kansas/that particular teacher was a "leader", or the test was nationally-typical at the time??

I'll wager that in that 8th grade class, if you failed, ...YOU FAILED!
You weren't coddle-promoted so you wouldn't feel "inferior" to your classmates.

On that note, let me admit that I don't believe the majority of my own graduating class (high school) could have done really well on that test, 50-60 years later /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif .

Looks like a downhill-graph to me!

Larry

 

[cowboydoc]

Larry,
I also teach a couple classes at the university and the Japanese students are just an absolute pleasure to have as students. They are kind, courteous, hardworking, and dedicated. They never never complain about tests, papers, etc. or make excuses. They seem to look at each assignment, test, lecture, etc. as a new experience and feel priveleged that they have the opportunity to learn from you as a teacher. I have had many conversations with them about their schooling and for my education credentials just finished a class in multi-cultural education, which is why I know about their school systems. All that I have had as students have been great.

 

[skent]

I've been fighting this in my kid's elem. school math courses. They get a new teacher in and the first thing she does, is make up her own lesson plan on how to teach the math basics. She will end up using something she typed on the computer and show it on the overhead, then give a home-made homework assignment. When the kid dosen't get the point while in school, and asks for help with homework, I look at what she's doing and ask to see her text book(so I can 'relate') and low and behold the assignment and its objectives arn't even covered by the text. This has happened MANY times and we have gotten it through the (teachers) head that if she is going to teach this way, we want a copy of the overhead to work from. Our county pays lots (or should I say the Taxpayers) for school text books only to have them sit unopened all school year while a fresh-out tries to mark her territory.

Has happened in other classes as well. (I feel my BP going UP)

Later



Steve

 

[skent]

I also have many many "Radio Craft" magizines from the 30's and 40's. It's amazing the distance we have covered in all these years, but as I have said before, as we make the computers and machines smarter, faster and more efficient, we are ending up making our human race less smart, slower and less efficient. We are allowing the machines to "pick-up" the slack and allowing ourselves to coast.


Steve

 

[tanuke01]

Most of the students that come to the US for College are the one that can not get into the good schools in Japan. They are very thankful to be able to attend.

 

[cowboydoc]

I can tell you exactly where I get my facts from. That is Dr. Laure E. Berk's textbook "Development Through the Lifespan" Chapter 9 Education in Japan, Taiwan, and the United States from Illinois State University. The class I took was Multicultural Education from the University of Iowa. I have also talked to numerous Japanese students and have been told exactly the opposite. It is the gifted and the well to do that are sent over here to go to school because the Universities are better. From what I've been told there is nothing to compare to Ivy League schools there as well as Big 10 schools.

 

[JOR_EL]

Tanuke01,

Welcome to TBN /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif,

Could you tell us what the average Japanese citizen thinks of that kind of pressure on the schoolkids?

Are there any dissenters, or would that be too "politically incorrect" in Japanese culture?

I also wonder what the Japanese students who DO come to the US for school think of the system/culture here?

Thanks for your comments! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Larry

 

[hess]

skent,

It's funny how times have changed with regards to our objectives (learning goals) in the classroom.

When I first started my student teaching assignment eight years ago (3 months in a Philadelphia middle school), I was initially surprised by my co-op's unwillingness to focus on grammatical and spelling errors. Granted, this was an 8th grade science course, but I expected her to be a little tougher when it came to these "basics."

Without going into the specifics, this school was a "magnet school," and there was a waiting list to get in (many inner city kids came into the school at a remedial level and left at an advanced or gifted one) - and the mission statement revolved around developing ideas, and stimulating the mind to think on its own; so that learning becomes a lifelong endeavor.

By focusing too much on details (dates, names, phrases, etc.) we discourage some of the higher level thinking that we all want our children to develop. I gradually bought into this way of thinking, although it still bothers me to see some of the mistakes that my 10th - 12th graders make.

Now, is this an approach that everyone will agree with? Probably not. Does it encourage mediocrity with regards to fundamentals? Maybe. Can students learn the basics and develop their mind at the same time? Of course. But, I was persuaded by the fact that many of the students coming into this school were borderline illiterate - but they were bright kids, anxious to learn. It is my opinion, and the opinion of a great deal of people, that ideas and concepts are more important than the rote memorization of rules and facts.

When people criticize the paths that some of their schools have taken - I encourage them to become an active participant in their childs education. Talk with the teachers and listen to their rationale for whatever it is they may be doing.

Some new teachers will try to re-invent the wheel - sometimes they have a good reason for it.

hess

But, as we have seen over the past century, times change. As do our objectives in the classroom.

 

[JOR_EL]

Hess,

[[[By focusing too much on details (dates, names, phrases, etc.) we discourage some of the higher level thinking that we all want our children to develop. ]]]

Acknowledging that 'too much" of ANYTHING is too-much (duh!) let's remove those two words from the above quote.

Now we have; (A)"By focusing on details (dates, names, phrases, etc.) we discourage some of the higher level thinking that we all want our children to develop."

Let's compare that with; (B)[[[ Can students learn the basics and develop their mind at the same time? Of course.]]]

Do you not see a contradiction between these two statements?

Now lets add ; (C)[[[ Does it encourage mediocrity with regards to fundamentals? Maybe.]]]

So: If (A) contradicts (B), and (B) is an "Of course"., then lets just disregard the "disproven" (A).

Leaving a "new" system that "stimulates thinking" but "maybe" "encourage mediocrity with regards to fundamentals? ", ...vs an "old" system that has "students learn the basics and develop their mind at the same time".

This scenario offers(paraphrased) "thinking" expressed-with, or using-as-tools, "perhaps-mediocre" fundamentals.

In the past "thinking" was highly valued AND the base upon which to best-do this "thinking" was highly valued as well!

Having conceded that both can be accomplished ("of course"), ...why (for all of our sakes!) not DO IT?

[[[It is my opinion, and the opinion of a great deal(sic) of people, that ideas and concepts are more important than the rote memorization of rules and facts.]]]

That, to me, is like saying that food is more important than water.
Living without either one would be quite a trick. And having an "idea", ... visualizing a "concept" that you can only with-great difficulty research("readin'"),poorly-express("ritin'"), or faultily develop("rithmatic"), is not what it means to be educated.

It is to have a "partial", or INCOMPLETE "education"(so-called).

I am constantly amazed by those who would "serve" our children (and society) by LOWERING STANDARDS(!) ...and without fail, asking for more money to do it with.

[[[It's funny how times have changed with regards to our objectives (learning goals) in the classroom.]]]

Nothing "funny" about it, in my opinion!

PS: The "duh!" was intended to be "generic", ...not directed at you personally, Hess.

Larry

 

[tanuke01]

I agree with the part of the well-to-do coming here. The gifted no. Most Japanese Corporations do not hire the people that were educated in the USA. (Unless Dad owns the Co) except in lower postions. Try to find a CEO that was educated in the USA.
As to what the students tell you" Would you tell anyone that you could not make it in Japan and came to the US to get your degree. I think Not.
In this country, status (Ivy League) and sports (big 10) are for the rich and powerful. Japan has their status universities. A degree from the University of Tokyo assures a student of a good life as long as he follows the rules. Japanese are very closed mouth when talking to non-Japanese on matter of pride and Japanese honor. They tell outsiders what they expect to hear as long as Japan looks good.