Tell victom or not?

Richard · Oct 17, 2001

Yesterday, I had a fortunate/unfortunate opportunity of being witness and second person at head on car collision.

Without getting into sordid gore, two vehicles, the "offender" vehicle was driving in opposing traffic's lane and hit the "victom". Other witnesses thought she was bent on suicide (if so, she was in fact..successful) based on her swerving in/out of lanes including opposing traffic. Second thought was drunk.

As I also was witness, I saw "victom" vehicle careen, I have the "slow motion, LORD tell me this isn't happening" vision burned into my memory of seeing the father being flung out of his window and being tossed like a rag doll though the air and onto the ground.

Upshot, I got to this gentleman who was initially unconsious. He slowly came around, though obviously dazed. His right foot was simply ripped off, hanging on by some skin & maybe tendons. His left leg was definately broke completely in two, however, no bone protrusions. Lacerations on face, hands, head blah blah... Very suprised if he doesn't have many internal injuries.

His child was the least (evidently) hurt. The child WAS hurt, but no obvious broken bones, just a "more than little" cut on his face, so he looked VERY bad. The childs (maybe 13 years old) legs were crimped by the vehicles door/seat and that seemed to be his primary source of pain.

Upshot, Father & son hear each other moaning/screaming in pain. Father is obviously not feeling pain & high on adrenalin (sp?). He was adament that he was going to get to his son. I can't blame him. He lifted himself from the gutter to sitting position, reached hand to me for me to pull him up, I finally got him to lay back down.

I was the one with him trying to keep him still & do what I could to comfort him. I knew that I and others had called 911 so it was only minutes before they would be there.

During his attempts to arise (him not knowing both legs were broke) I tried to make him understand that the wheels were already turning to get help. He asked what happened and I told him what I saw & knew about the accident. He asked how his boy was and I told him that which I perceive to be the truth given I'm out of my element. I ALSO described his obvious injuries to him. From his feet/legs to lacerations. I was calm, tried to be soothing but I did NOT want to lie to him. I told him everything straight up.

Because they were both visually in bad shape with LOTS of blood, one of my main concerns was to prevent father/son from seeing each other. Their proximity had them such that they coudn't easily see each other but coud hear each other. I tried to intermediate with each to calm them. I feared that if either one saw the other (or themself) the depth of their situation might cause even MORE stress on them.

Upon talking to my Wife about this, she was shocked. She thought I might have been out of bounds telling him his "real" visual condition. She thought I should have said something like, "your're ok..don't worry" or something touchy/feely like that.

I maintained to her last night that I felt what I did was the right thing, and if presented with same situation, I would NOT hesitate to be honest again. I think if I were the father, I would want to know. Even if I'm alone & I'm the victom..I think I'd want to know.

Opinions?

Richard

Bird · Oct 17, 2001

Yeah, Richard, there are some who think you were right, and some who think your wife was. Of course, I've been on the scene of many accidents and injuries. I won't intentionally lie to anyone; try to tell them the truth (facts, not my opinion), so I'd be a little careful about giving too many details (too easy to drift into opinions and it's hard to make an accurate evaluation of injuries on the scene and don't want to tell someone something that later turns out to be wrong).

Bird

dmccarty · Oct 17, 2001

Richard,

Since the guy was calmed downed and not trying to get to his child I think you did the right thing. Certainly keep to the facts and don't lie for the most part. I'm not sure I would tell the truth to a parent who was injured that their child was dead. In that case the kid is gone and the parent has to be treated. The parent is the first priority. Having an emotional/freaking out patient is not going to be easy to treat. That is a situation I don't ever want to face. One of the worst incidents officers, fire fighters, EMTs, etc., have to deal with involve injured or deceased children. Don't want to go there....

Some people are just very emotional. What is said has to be judged by the circumstances as they stand at each incident.

The only thing that I think was a no no was moving the injured man. He was obviously seriously hurt and he could have had neck or spine injuries. I was told in my first responder class about an accident. The injured driver got out of the car and sat down on the curb. An officer/EMT got there and told the man to stay still and not move. For some reason the man moved, I think he turned his head, and he cut his spinal cord. /w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif Don't know if the story is true but it drive the point home. Don't move people who are injured and might have hurt their spine or neck. Keep them still until the EMTs can stablize them and transport them safely.

Later...
Dan McCarty

TerryinMD · Oct 17, 2001

Richard,

How could anyone provide advise after the fact?

It is unimaginable to think how I or anyone else would respond any differently to a similar situation. Those that have witnessed or have been trained to respond to serious accidents are passing along valuable information that, hopefully, will never be required.

You handled the situation as best you could and provided solice and comfort to the father.

Take it easy,
Terry

Richard · Oct 17, 2001

I agree with sentiments on moving. To be clear, HE moved himself. When I arrived, he was lying half on sidewalk, half in road. Belt was on curb, tummy to head in streat, belt & below was on sidewalk.

He came around and I tried my best to get him to listen & stay still. he STILL managed to righten himself, sit up (all the while, his feet were...never mind) reach out for me to help him and I just tried to be as stern & clear as I could that he HAD to be still.

He COMPLETELY turned himself around and finally was laying on his back, feet completely up on sidewalk.

It was here that I presume he started being cognizant that "something was wrong" and started to listen to me somewhat.

I guess people don't know how they will react until put into a situation. My wife would have told you I would pass out here. In fact, there were maybe 7 "helpers" that stopped. Primarily all were witness to events. One man saw dead lady (I think) & went out to direct traffic, myself & male teenager went to father & son and tried to do what we could when they started showing life.

Virtually all the others were freaking out. One was in middle of road kneeling while hands were over head and doing a bowing type movement all the while SCREAMING for love, peace & for "someone" to help, (was really bizarre...then she got in car & drove away /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif) others were standing at a distance, shaking with tears & emotions.

In hindsight, I think the teenager & myself were probably the two most collected there followed by the guy directing traffic.

(no offense to the women intended)

had his child indeed appeared dead, I don't know that I would have said anything. As it was, his child was VERY energetic in his evidence of pain and alertness to his situation though he was still somewhat dazed by the shear impact.

Richard

MossRoad · Oct 17, 2001

Richard, in my opinion you did the right thing by staying calm, attempting to keep the victim from moving and aggravating his injuries. Also, since the child looked intact and alert, you did the right thing to calm the father by telling him this. And you kept assuring him that help was on the way. What else could you have done? You did far better than most in that situation and I applaud you.

 MossRoad

dmccarty · Oct 17, 2001

Sorry Richard,

I went back and looked at my post and it was not worded correctly. I did not mean to imply that you had moved the man. I had picked up from your post that HE was moving when you arrived. The problem I was trying to address was the man moving. Hope that makes sense this time! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif It took me at least three attempts to get the last few sentences even remotely on target! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Second guessing critical incidents is not helpful. Learning from what went wrong/right in a critical incident is helpful and important. I think you did the right thing.

People react differently in these situations. Even a person who behaves OK at one critical incident may do something completely different in a similar situation. Its just being human I suppose. I'm amazed at what one sees at accidents/incidents. Some people just freak out and are a danger to themselves and others. They also can hinder rescues. I think its somewhat cultural as well. I saw a training tape of a group of Correction Officers getting pepper sprayed. Most handled it calmly. Others just freaked out and had to be physically restrained. All the people had just been through the same training but there was a difference in how they handled the stress. Each person knew what would happen to them but how they reacted was completely different....

The point about minimizing/preventing the movement of people injured in accidents that might involve the neck/spine is important. If I had not been to two first responder classes I doubt I would have a clue about how important this can be. And that was what I was attempting to do with my misworded sentence. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif I have seen people at accidents doing dangerous things both for their own safety as well as the injured. The idea of a man turning his head and loosing the use of his arms/legs is rather haunting....

Later...
Dan McCarty

Jag · Oct 17, 2001

Richard, you did great..... You were calm and tried to keep the the man from moving. You did all you could to keep the man calm. It does no good to second guess this kind of thing. You do the best you can at that time, and learn from it. No one else was there and saw exactly what you saw, and had to make the decisions in those few seconds.

RPM · Oct 17, 2001

Richard,

I think you did great. The (limited) training I have received can be summarized as:

1. Stay calm

2. Call for help

3. Manage remaining risk

In a traffic accident, the #3 includes keeping victims still, controlling traffic and keeping people from freaking out if you can.

Take care of yourself - if you start feeling depressed about it or repeatedly question your actions over the next few weeks then it may help to go and talk to someone. The shock of seeing the injuries and the random nature of an accident like this can dramatically raise a person's anxiety levels.

All the best,

Patrick

RAllen · Oct 17, 2001

Richard

First, thankyou for your assistance. You did good! I've seen many folks with good intentions turn away from someone with the level of trama you described. I have some experience with such things and I think the best course of action depends on the situation. You don't have to lie but you don't have to go into details either. One strategy is to focus on one of the less serious injuries. In your case, I might tell the father the son didn't appear too bad and not to move cause his leg may be broken. You can kill a trama victim by even your reaction. Staying calm but insistant may have save a life. Telling anyone they have lost a limb can put them into deep shock. Using words like may and might or possibly can go along way in calming the victim.

Again, thanks

Rick

cowboydoc · Oct 17, 2001

Richard,
I agree with the sentiments here and the fact that in no way should you second guess yourself! You did what you felt was right in the situation and handled it with courage and a very level head. What I would have done as a healthcare professional or anyone else in no way reflects what you should have done. That is why we have good samaritan laws. You did fine, you did a good thing and you should be proud of yourself and not second guessing what you could've or should've done. You're a good man for what you did and that's all the advice anyone should be giving you.

Richard · Oct 17, 2001

Thanks all for the support.

I'm not so much second guessing myself what I did because I did what I felt was "right". That said, my curiosity was more along the lines of how much information do you give the injured. That has been addressed.

I guess I was more surprised that the Wife second guessed what I did from the confines of the house rather than being closer to the fire and having to simply react to the situation.

Tidbit..
Mother is an OR nurse (operating room), next door neighbor as I grew up was family physician. I grew up not necessarily in the medical field so to say, but I grew up with some of it's influences and I think that is why I not only was very calm, but had a clue about him staying still. THAT said, I was still very out of my element & expertise.

I've certainly seen number of photos of accidents, but this is my first, "first hand" one. The contrast of the frailty AND the strength of the human body is simply amazing to me.

Richard

Anonymous Poster · Oct 17, 2001

Ya done good. You may have saved this guys foot or his leg. Good for you and him. The father could offer no help in this situation so he should be kept immobilzed in order to keep his injuries to a minimum. Now if the car was on fire maybe this could have gone down a little different.

MarkV · Oct 17, 2001

Richard,

Are you OK? I don’t see how you could have done anything better than you did. The fact that you remained calm and did all you could to help says volumes about you as an individual. I was once in a similar situation and understand how unprepared and inadequate a person can feel when faced with such a traumatic event. You have my vote for TBN’s good guy of the week.

MarkV

StanInCalif · Oct 17, 2001

Richard, I think the reason God gave us deeper voices was so that we will be better able to command in situations such as this. You and the Kid did good.

stan

Richard · Oct 18, 2001

I phoned hospital today to check on their recent guest.
I spoke to the lady (nurse possibly) that worked on that floor. I was informed that the father is in "guarded" (which she said is "good") condition. We didn't speak about the son as I already presume he is catagorically better condition than the father.

I'm glad to know he is alive and carrying onward to some degree (though degree remains unknown). Father is 53 and son is 12.

She wouldn't tell me if the foot was saved or not. /w3tcompact/icons/mad.gif

Richard

TerryinMD · Oct 18, 2001

Richard,

Why don't you visit the man? I bet that he would be more than glad to see you and would really appreciate your concern and thoughfullness.

Terry

Edited by TerryinMD on 10/18/01 02:50 PM (server time).

Richard · Oct 18, 2001

I've considered that and was/am unsure if it woudn't be "tacky" for lack of better word. "I" woudn't mind if I were him, but you never know about people. Also, I would suspect with the general trauma, the probable surgery he has had (or is having) I highly doubt he will remember anything.

I DID leave my name/number today with lady so she could pass on to family who at that time, weren't there. I was hoping on telling them I put the Sons glasses in the back of the vehicle. I picked them up off ground since they were intact with minor bend. I'm not sure though if the family would want, or should, see the vehicle to retrieve them.

Richard

mikim · Oct 18, 2001

IMHO -- from past experience as an ambulance driver/EMT trainee -- leave well enuff alone -- you did good - now get past it and get on down the road. The feelings you have that you coulda/shoulda done more - that it's a job not yet finished - will & should pass - if you let 'em.
mfk

TerryinMD · Oct 18, 2001

Hmm... Richard with your apprehension in your last post and that of mikim, maybe it would be best to move on.

You left your name and number. It is now up to them to contact you.

Consider this, you did all that you could at the accident scene and called to check on their condition. You left a name and number. Your concern is real and is known to them. Let them make the next move. Feel gratified that you did all that you could do and went a little more.

The world would be a much better place if there were more people like you. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Take care,
Terry