"Teacher" splain this

[Chuck52]

Re: open-mindedness

Dan,

Duck and cover. Reminds me of something my sister the retired teacher might have written, unless she was really provoked. You did a very good job splaining this. It is unfortunate that some of the guys will assume you are providing justification for the 9/11 attacks, though perhaps I am being overly pessimistic about the response you will get. I certainly hope that is the case.

Chuck

 

[Chuck52]

Re: open-mindedness

Terry,

Eliminating "opinions" is all very well if only reading, writing and arithmetic are taught, though there could be reasonable arguments made about the content of the reading and writing. On the other hand, how in the world do you eliminate the presentation of "opinions" when teaching history, psychology, sociology, or that good old stuff we used to call civics?

I was going to ramble on with some pertinent examples, but it's lunch time, and I have my priorities straight.

Chuck

 

[Wingnut]

Re: open-mindedness

Very good, Terry ... good insight. I was thinking the same thing when I read the posting .... I was not aware that we were supposed to be rewarding teachers for having an opinion ... I always thought we were supposed to be preparing the students with knowledge of facts and preparing them to fporm their own opinions.
The major problem I've had with the educational system in this country is the communism that was formerly taught at the higher levels of education is now moving further and further down the ladder.
But they always do it politely ... and point out that "they're" the moderate people ... while cutting off any discussion that disagrees with them.
When I was in the system (as a student) I knew where Afganistan and ********* (and most other countries) were ... even if I didn't know they hated us. Now students learn how evil we are and how correct it is that others hate us ... but seldom are shown the behavior of the haters ... such as the partying in ********* on 9/11. Or the educational matter from Saudi schools.
Working from within the system used to have a good connotation .... now it appears we're severely infected with people who want to bring us all down to the stone age.

 

[Wingnut]

Re: NEA scam

I'm in Northern Alberta this week .... and the first thing I saw on the news when I got here (schools just about to start ... so they're in the news) was an interview with a principal who was having budget problems. He's in a quandary about what cuts to make in programs because it is vital that the 6% increase the teachers got stays in place.
It's gratifying to know that nothing has changed since I left ... still a strike or threat of one every year "for the children" ... meaning the teachers need another raise.

 

[TimSullivan]

Re: open-mindedness

Terry,

Please read Dan's post again, the opinions (plural) come from many sources and most teachers would withhold their’s as not to influence their students. If you have ever witnessed a well run class discussion, the teacher is a guide or facilitator not a preacher.

 

[TimSullivan]

Re: open-mindedness

Dan,

I spent some time last night writing a post and decided why bother. I am glad you did take the time to write your post. Public schools are a mirror of our society and there are people who do not understand what they see.

 

[Flint]

Re: open-mindedness

Sorry, I don't know how to make the quoted text of another post show up in blue so I hope you can follow this post.

First, thanks Chuck.

Then, Tim writes:
". . . the opinions (plural) come from many sources and most teachers would withhold their’s as not to influence their students. If you have ever witnessed a well run class discussion, the teacher is a guide or facilitator not a preacher. "

Exactly what I meant!!! Thank you, Tim!


Wingnut writes:
"I always thought we were supposed to be preparing the students with knowledge of facts and preparing them to fporm their own opinions."

YES!!!!! You've got it! Except surely you must understand that pure fact is not possible outside of maybe math and Mr. Spock. (Again, thanks to Chuck for touching on this in his post above.) A range of opinions, as Tim thankfully pointed out, must be presented with facts which will allow students to form their own opinion. Again, as Tim says, I rarely if ever let students know my opinion. (This drives them crazy sometimes and I will ask them what they think my opinion is. When they respond I say, "Interesting! Is that what you think I think?!!" This drives them even crazier and eventually some kids will get upset with those who are determined to know what I think and they'll scream, "Don't you get it!!!! He won't (or can't or shouldn't or isn't allowed) tell what he thinks!!! Just deal with it!!!!!!!) (Also interesting on this topic, I think, is that quite a few students think it is insulting to their intelligence that teachers don't give opinions at times. Their response is, "Why do some teachers think we're so dumb that we will will believe something just because they do! Get real!")


Wingnut again:
"The major problem I've had with the educational system in this country is the communism that was formerly taught at the higher levels of education is now moving further and further down the ladder."
AND
"Now students learn how evil we are and how correct it is that others hate us ... "

Now you've lost it again! What planet do you live on? (I'm sorry but that last part was meant with humor, not disrespect or derision. Perhaps I should say, " We must live on different planets!") When was the last time you were in a classroom? When and where have you witnessed this firsthand? Not heard a cousin's sister's boyfriend talk about his little brother's teacher, but actually sat in a classroom and witnessed this yourself? Please people, if you have doubts or fears about what is being taught in your local school go down and sit in on a class. Any teacher should be happy to have you and welcome you any time. I know I personally would pay some of you to come sit in my classroom or any classroom I know of to see how ridiculous some of your "Once I heard abouts . . . " are.

Again, I beg you, visit a classroom before you charge ahead with paranoia, wild accusations and second, third, fourth or fifth hand anecdotes.

I hope this reads as polite and respectful for that is how it is intended. Have a wonderful day!

Dan

 

[wroughtn_harv]

Re: open-mindedness

Morning Dan,

I'd have to say I suspect that teaching's a lot like welding based upon what a welding instructor in a high school once told me. He was in my shop. We started talking about teaching welding. He explained that some kids just picked it right up and other's never could.

I'd guess teaching's a lot like that. It might even be a bit like splicing telephone cable too. I guess I'd been doing it about five years when it hit me that the best splicers didn't always make the best supervisors. And, choke, gag, cough, some of the worst splicers made great supervisors.

If you interact with the kids like you interact with us I'd say chances are most likely that you pick up sixty percent or more their interests in the subject. And if you're as eloquent there as here even some in the other forty percent are able to comprehend what you need them to understand.

It'd be real hard on me to be a kid today. I got through school without ever doing homework. I read all the time and was glib in gab so what I didn't know I could bs the teacher into thinking I was interested. From what I've seen with friends and family in school today that wouldn't float.

Of course there's no way in gawd's green earth that I could be a teacher today in anything but artsy fartsy stuff. I've noticed that the kids today remain kids up into their thirties and forties. At least when it comes to their attitudes towards teachers.

They don't like them and they still think they're stupid even when they have their own kids in school. And it seems some of them seem to be hanging around like vultures at a dying for the teacher to do or say something to little Johnny or Janey so they can come in like a hurricane cleaning house.

One good case of that and I'm afraid their mental condition (headupbuttitis) would become a physical one. Yup, the kids today who have parents who are their best buds are going to find the world a place without friends. I mean it's bad enough having friends with too much but being raised by them and not having parents who parent has got to be a handicapper for real life.

I know it's not a popular position these days but I believe kids will always be able to find friends. That's nothing but a given. What the kids need are parents. I think parents should be adults living in an adult world. That is an example the kids see and will emulate. Parents aren't there to provide entertainment and companionship for the kids. Kids aren't interested in what adults should be interested in. And by the same token parents shouldn't be wanting to play kids games.

Again, I know it's going against the flow. But I see all these parents busy spending half their time making sure their kids get to have the childhood they missed out on and I have to shake my head. I have to wonder what those parents are going to do when the kids are gone and there's no one to play with besides people their own age. How will they fit in then?

 

[jhburke]

Re: open-mindedness

Yes I have four bros and a sister. We are all different in our tastes and abilities. Dad started a family business. I worked we my bros. I am the middle of the 3 older bros. My older bro was shop manager, I was sales and parts dept, my younger bro was the general manager after dad died. I am not a mechanic I am a parts changer. The other two were good mechanics. They hated everything abouts parts except having them when needed. I run the parts dept and was outside salesman. They could sell if you came to the shop, otherwise they would freeze up. I could sell on the road and enjoyed it. The other 2 are twins and almost 20 years younger. They have an alltogether different outlook. But by using everybodies strengths the business has grown from year one on.
The point I would like to make is that all of us are different. When we try to put everybody in the same box, it makes most of us unhappy. An example is the number of different models and makes of tractors. I feel that it is very important that a person be as happy as possible in any situation. Bearing in mind that we will not be happyall the time and neither will everybody else. My dad always said get happy or get gone. With him that was a given, if a worker was bitching and mouthing off because he was unhappy about something and this was causing problems. He tried to resolve the problem. If that didn't work the guy was encouraged to find a different job.

I guess what I am getting at is that when several people from the same parents with a happy upbringing aren't the same how can we expect everybody to be the same with all the diversity of families and situations.

 

[PitbullMidwest]

Re: open-mindedness

<font color=blue>...the opinions (plural) come from many sources and most teachers would withhold their’s as not to influence their students</font color=blue> /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

It's been my experience that "the opinions...from many sources" simply re-enforce their own. As an example, I had 2 Iranian students in a history class during the embassy hostage takeover. Our teacher wanted us to be open minded and assigned us to bring in articles about the political climate in the Middle East from "alternative sources". She rejected one student's articles daily because they came from a Jewish newspaper. So much for HER open mindedness. BTW, she cried in class when they were deported.

The evolution/creation debate is a bright example about the open minded views of the NEA.

 

[Egon]

Re: Truth

Ah Truth????

People who read well and quickly pay no attention to those quigly faces that appear on many posts. They only pick out the important factors and can infer those quigly faces by conotation.

Now my other perception is that you are quite willing to move from your current residence to a tent so a person who has resided in your country from time immorial can occupy it.

Egon

 

[Phred]

Re: open-mindedness

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

Except surely you must understand that pure fact is not possible outside of maybe math and Mr. Spock

<hr></blockquote>



What in the world do you teach?

Lets see: Netwons laws a matter of opnion?
How many stomachs does a cow have is a matter of opinion?
Students with out verbs in their sentences might be good english after all?
In oregon maybe george washington was not the first president after all?

<blockquote><font size=1>In reply to:</font><hr>

On the other hand, how in the world do you eliminate the presentation of "opinions" when teaching history, psychology, sociology, or that good old stuff we used to call civics?

<hr></blockquote>



So history is now a matter of opinion?
How much psychology and sociology does a 17 year old that can't read write or solve basic algebra problems actually take?


Flint and chuck you have me even more concerned than when we began this "talk".

All I know is that I have students that come to me after high school and their math skills are poor at best and the writting is terrible. Maybe thats because is all a matter of opinioin and I am just old fashion thinking that a particular differential equation has a unique answer and that complete sentence are the way to go.....

Silly me what was I thinking....


Fred

 

[PitbullMidwest]

Re: Truth

<font color=blue>...the instructing officer described the Battle of the Bulge as the largest tank battle of the war. When I asked him about the Battle of Leningrad, he modified his description to be the largest tank battle of the war involving U.S. forces. </font color=blue>

The largest tank battle of WWII was at Kursk, not Lenningrad, but your point is still valid.

 

[Wingnut]

Re: open-mindedness

Dan,
sorry ... I always have to remind myself that American schools are, in fact, no Canadian schools. I have never been in an active American public classroom so my biased opinions on that topic should definitely be taken with a very large scoop of salt.
I guess what I was trying to say was that - based on secondhand information that I've seen since I arrived in Michigan and started reading American newspapers and listening to/viewing American media - the predilication of "teaching" the views of the person at the front of the room has trickled down from the universities to grade schools.
I never have thought that <font color=blue>every</font color=blue> teacher was like that ... since <font color=blue>every</font color=blue> one of us is different. I've also been reminded, frequently, by some friends who are teachers in Texas that not all teachers in the US are members of NEA or are even allowed to be.
I apologize for the tone of my last post ... I always choke on this issue since I'm in the "taxation without representation" class. Never had kids but always paid taxes to educate other's kids ... definitely taints my perception. And I did some interviewing last week .... had to waste hours of my time dealing with some of the end-products of the educational system. I do NOT envy you, sir, and wouldn't trade places with you on a bet!

pete

lesson for today: how to turn a copied paste blue .... after you cut and paste, simply add the html tag for color before and after the post. You can find it in the "markup in your posts" tag at the top of the post screen ... but, [bluex] (without the x) at the front and [/bluex] (without the x) at the end. Hope that helps.

 

[Wingnut]

Re: Truth

<font color=blue>time immorial</font color=blue>
I assume you mean "forever"?
Did you have some education, that I didn't, that proves the previous residents didn't move here from elsewhere and drive off or slay the previous residents? As they did? And the ones before them?
Would this person be willing to fairly compensate me? If so, give me their name, I'm ready to sell.

 

[Chuck52]

Re: Truth

Thanks for the correction, PitBull. I don't remember military history as being covered much in regular history courses, which is yet another plug, I guess, for including different views.

Chuck