Oil & Fuel Synthetic Oil

[JerryK]

[million minus one] The only engine I use syn in is my standby generator. I use dino RotellaT or Delo 400 in all my diesels. Even with the dino, the motors will be fine and last longer than I need them. And probably the next guy or two guys after me. I do use syn grease. Especially good stuff on the front end components of my Dodge diesel with all the weight it carries. Thirteen years old and still all original except the shocks. I use dino/syn grease on my backhoe. But everything else gets the straight syn grease.

 

[Gary Fowler]

And why not? If someone is going to make such a ridiculous claim.

I'm sure the cheapo Walmart brand oil "meets" the specs, but are you going to claim it is as good as a brand name?

It likely is a brand name oil. Walmart doesn't make their own oil, just like tractor mfgs. don't make Kubota oil or JD oil or whatever brand. It is all made by a major refinery somewhere. Even Amsoil doesn't make their base stock oil, they just put some additive in a base oil stock (per their own website). If the oil meets an API spec, and it has truly been tested and certified, then it will be as good as then next brand oil for all intents and purposes.
Do I use Walmart oil, NO> Would I use it if it was all that was locally available, for darned sure. I wouldn't mail order a brand (like Amsoil) just because of claimed much better quality. My equipment and vehicles don't need racecar performance oil because I don't put that many hours or miles on them and any name brand oil if fine for me. My engines always outlast me. My daughter in law is still using a push mower that I bought in 1990 and it still cranks on 1st or 2nd pull, uses not oil and has never had anything in it but mineral oil.
Would it last longer with syn oil? Maybe, but just how long do I need a small engine to last or a car engine for that matter. My highest mileage car just turned 100K and is 11 years old, uses no oil and still has all original equipment except battery and water pump, neither of which have anything to do with oil.

 

[DarkBlack]

Thanks for all the information. Since the owners manual does list the API spec and Amsoil exceeds that spec I think I will go with it during the next oil change.

super-tech oil probably exceeds it also.

 

[Ram4x4]

It likely is a brand name oil. Walmart doesn't make their own oil, just like tractor mfgs. don't make Kubota oil or JD oil or whatever brand. It is all made by a major refinery somewhere. Even Amsoil doesn't make their base stock oil, they just put some additive in a base oil stock (per their own website). If the oil meets an API spec, and it has truly been tested and certified, then it will be as good as then next brand oil for all intents and purposes.
Do I use Walmart oil, NO> Would I use it if it was all that was locally available, for darned sure. I wouldn't mail order a brand (like Amsoil) just because of claimed much better quality. My equipment and vehicles don't need racecar performance oil because I don't put that many hours or miles on them and any name brand oil if fine for me. My engines always outlast me. My daughter in law is still using a push mower that I bought in 1990 and it still cranks on 1st or 2nd pull, uses not oil and has never had anything in it but mineral oil.
Would it last longer with syn oil? Maybe, but just how long do I need a small engine to last or a car engine for that matter. My highest mileage car just turned 100K and is 11 years old, uses no oil and still has all original equipment except battery and water pump, neither of which have anything to do with oil.

I look at it this way, two different brands of oil are not the same. Oil is more than just refined crude. There are additives and it varies from brand to brand. With the cost of my machinery, a few dollars here or there for higher priced oil make no real financial difference in the end. I never understand the mindset of paying big $$$ for a machine, but squabbling about a relative few dollars to maintain it. My Dodge Ram 2500 wasn't cheap, my Mahindra wasn't cheap...why would I intentionally just dump the cheapest oil I can find in them? I'm sure walmart oil meets some spec, but a spec is the minimum. Why would I intentionally put something that just meets minimums in my machinery?

I have an old Craftsman riding mower (10+ years) that I've never changed the oil in at all. I have added oil to it once or twice in over 10 years. It still runs fine, but that single cylinder, cheap little 18HP engine is not exactly in the same ballpark as my Cummins diesel or Mahindra diesel engine.

 

[Nightforce]

Has anyone switched to running synthetic 15w-40 in their Mahindra? I can not find any reference in the owners manual whether or not it is acceptable to use synthetic oil. I use Amsoil 15w-40 in most every diesel I have. Just got a new Max 28 and would like to use it in that as well.

I think Amsoil is a good oil but it's not locally available where I live....or at least I've never seen it.

This is what I use. It's available at WalMart and the price wasn't too steep if I remember correctly.

Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Synthetic Motor Oil

 

[Gary Fowler]

Sure motor oils are a bit more than refined crude, but if truth be known, there is likely not more than an Iota of difference in any of them made by a major oil company. They all claim proprietary ingredients but with todays spectrographic analyzers it isn't difficult to tell exactly what is in any substance and what % of it is there also. I think mostly the oil companies hype up their oil as being the best so they get more people hooked into it but in fact, any oil made today is 1000% better than oils of 1970's era and even then it did an adequate job of lubrication. I have my usual brands that I use (Shell Rotella) but I would not be scared to use another brand for an oil change if I couldn't get my Shell brand. In the past I have used Quaker State, Castrol, Exxon and still have Mobil 1 full synthetic in my riding mower. I have never had an oil related failure in anything. Our farm tractors of the 60-70 era got well into the 10,000+ hour use and mostly Dad used Exxon diesel oil and we never had any issues with engines or hydraulic pumps for that matter even though none of our tractors had hydraulic filters, but that is off topic a bit.

 

[JerryK]

Talking motor oil is like talking gun oil .... or blondes, redheads, and brunettes...., etc. No one is right, and no one is wrong. Everyone just has thier own ingrained opinion... and can argue their point aimlessly for hours and hours. By the way, everyone KNOWS that it is Rotella T, brunettes [ sorry Brandi ], and most definately Ballistol..

 

[Soundguy]

for the last few years i've used valvoline premium blue 5w40 syn in my powerstroke diesels. .. for most of my tractors except a couple i've rebuilt the top end on.. they get 15w40 dino.. the rebuilt gassers are getting 10w30 walmart syn

I think Amsoil is a good oil but it's not locally available where I live....or at least I've never seen it.

This is what I use. It's available at WalMart and the price wasn't too steep if I remember correctly.

Mobil 1 5W-40 Turbo Diesel Synthetic Motor Oil

 

[Hermio]

The differences in oil are not simply a matter of opinion or preference. API (American Petroleum Institute) has a battery of tests that quantitatively measure oil's performance and longevity. The synthetics win against conventional oil every time. I have used synthetics on a 25000 mile oil change basis on all my cars and most of my trucks for almost 40 years. I normally get 250000 miles or more out of my vehicles (except for my diesel Suburban and 6.0l Ford diesel. But engine oil had nothing to do with the many problems I had with those two) I also use synthetic on my diesel Kubota. It is 22 years old. Rust is a problem on it. Engine oil isn't.

 

[DarkBlack]

The differences in oil are not simply a matter of opinion or preference. API (American Petroleum Institute) has a battery of tests that quantitatively measure oil's performance and longevity. The synthetics win against conventional oil every time. I have used synthetics on a 25000 mile oil change basis on all my cars and most of my trucks for almost 40 years. I normally get 250000 miles or more out of my vehicles (except for my diesel Suburban and 6.0l Ford diesel. But engine oil had nothing to do with the many problems I had with those two) I also use synthetic on my diesel Kubota. It is 22 years old. Rust is a problem on it. Engine oil isn't.

It certainly is "opinion or preference". You're confusing specific oil lab tests, with the decision of what lubricant people decide to run in their particular machines. It's 2 totally different things.

 

[Hermio]

It certainly is "opinion or preference". You're confusing specific oil lab tests, with the decision of what lubricant people decide to run in their particular machines. It's 2 totally different things.

People's preferences are indeed different. But what I am saying is that differences between oils are real and measurable. That takes real performance out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of science. A good synthetic lubricant, properly applied at the viscosity needed by the machine, and with the right additives needed for diesel or gasoline, as the case may be, will not only last much longer itself, but will make the engine last longer also, while also using less fuel, being easier to start in the winter, and needing much less frequent oil changes.

 

[Hermio]

I buy Amsoil from their website. Cheapest way to get it is to pay an annual fee to become a dealer, even if you never sell any.

 

[ray66v]

People's preferences are indeed different. But what I am saying is that differences between oils are real and measurable. That takes real performance out of the realm of opinion and into the realm of science. A good synthetic lubricant, properly applied at the viscosity needed by the machine, and with the right additives needed for diesel or gasoline, as the case may be, will not only last much longer itself, but will make the engine last longer also, while also using less fuel, being easier to start in the winter, and needing much less frequent oil changes.

Every thing you say was true, 20 years ago.

As the synthetic oils evolved, the mineral oils improved with the same technology. With today's lubricants, there is no longer any significant difference in lubricity between dino oils, and synthetic oils, under normal operating conditions.

Making the better fuel mileage, and engines last longer claims untrue.

One only needs to look up the specifications and compare them, to see that.

The only two differences today, are extreme temperatures, and longer intervals.

If you have proof to support your "real and measurable" claims, outside of those two differences, I would like to see it.

 

[Hermio]

HowStuffWorks "Synthetic vs. Conventional Motor Oil: Which is Best for Your Needs and Environment's?"
Is Synthetic Motor Oil Better? | Angies List
Should You Use Synthetic Oil in Your Vehicle? » AutoGuide.com News

Reference tests: ASTM Tests Performed
Each oil was subjected to the following ASTM test methodologies:
• Four-Ball Wear Test (ASTM D4172 Mod.)
• Total Base Number (ASTM D2896)
• Cold Cranking Viscosity (ASTM D5293)
• Thermo-Oxidation Engine Oil Simulation Test (TEOST, ASTM D6335)
• NOACK Volatility Test (ASTM D5800)

In the above tests, there are significant differences even between synthetic oils. Reference https://www.amsoil.com/lit/g3115.pdf
Amsoil

Amsoil summarizes other tests here: API Comparative Motor Oil Testing

Want something more independent: Try looking up oiltests.pdf. Though Amsoil was not included, the oils they tested showed huge differences. Mobil 1 performed quite poorly.

 

[ray66v]

Your first 3 links are opinion pieces, and contain no data. But, they also mostly bolster my argument, that the only real difference today is extreme temperatures, and intervals.

The Amsoil links you provided, show that the difference in lubricity, as I stated, is not significant.

l

 

[Hermio]

Your first 3 links are opinion pieces, and contain no data. But, they also mostly bolster my argument, that the only real difference today is extreme temperatures, and intervals.

The Amsoil links you provided, show that the difference in lubricity, as I stated, is not significant.

l

Well, lets see. The oils tested in the report were all synthetic, because Amsoil does not consider conventional oils to be their competition. But even among the oils tested, there was quite a range of results. In the 4-ball wear test, the ratio of best to worst was 4.57. In the cold viscosity test, there was a 70% difference in viscosity. (This directly affects cold cranking amps). In the thermal oxidation test, the worst oil had 8.85 times as much degradation. In the NOACK volatility test, the best to worst ratio was 2.5. If you do not consider these results to be significant, then you and I have a very different idea of the meaning of the word "significant". I guess if you were to perform a job for someone and asked $100 for it, but the client only paid you $12 for your work, you would consider that to be an insignificant difference, as that is about the difference in the thermal oxidation test.

I also decided to do some more digging. In this report, conventional oils are tested also. Motor Oil Testing Methods

 

[ray66v]

Yes, it's insignificant. There is something called the point of diminishing returns.

Any engine will out last the vehicle today, under normal driving, using conventional oil. If you want to get excited about making yours last longer then that, so be it.

There is still only a real difference in extreme temperatures, and intervals.

 

[Hermio]

I would say that my 25000 mile oil change interval is certainly significantly longer than the 3000 miles most people recommend for conventional oils, or the 7500 mile interval generally required by the OEMs. That alone saves me money. And since synthetic oils have lower friction (as evidenced by the 4-ball test), they must improve fuel efficiency, though possibly not by an easily detectable amount. For instance, if they increase fuel economy by 1-2%, that is a significant savings over the life of the car, but since fuel economy varies much more than that based on driving conditions, it would be hard to demonstrate that. However, it is known that conventional oil has more volatile components, which boil off, leaving the less volatile molecules behind. This results in the oil viscosity going up with time, as one of the ASTM tests shows. A thicker oil means more power required to move it, and hence more fuel consumed. This is one reason why long oil drain intervals are not a good idea for conventional oils, no matter how good the additives are. Basically, use of synthetic oils saves money in a variety of ways, and there is no downside.

 

[DarkBlack]

The differences in oil are not simply a matter of opinion or preference. API (American Petroleum Institute) has a battery of tests that quantitatively measure oil's performance and longevity. The synthetics win against conventional oil every time. I have used synthetics on a 25000 mile oil change basis on all my cars and most of my trucks for almost 40 years. I normally get 250000 miles or more out of my vehicles

Look at you go! If you're gonna' spread it on... spread it on thick.

So let we try to follow this story. So you really care about your vehicles, You care so much that... you hold out on changing your oil for 25k miles. That makes a lot of sense.
You care so much, but not enough to change it at a reasonable interval. Hmm. That sounds like a 'story' from an amsoil salesman.
You 'normally' get 250k miles from your vehicles. Hmmm, how many millions of miles do you drive?
How's that oil filter at 25k? At least your story is easy to remember with the convenience of 25k oil for 250k miles cars.

Sorry. I've read 100 too many amsoil salesmen posts.

 

[Hermio]

Look at you go! If you're gonna' spread it on... spread it on thick.

So let we try to follow this story. So you really care about your vehicles, You care so much that... you hold out on changing your oil for 25k miles. That makes a lot of sense.
You care so much, but not enough to change it at a reasonable interval. Hmm. That sounds like a 'story' from an amsoil salesman.
You 'normally' get 250k miles from your vehicles. Hmmm, how many millions of miles do you drive?
How's that oil filter at 25k? At least your story is easy to remember with the convenience of 25k oil for 250k miles cars.

Sorry. I've read 100 too many amsoil salesmen posts.

No, I don't care about my vehicles, in the sense that you seem to mean. I care about the cost per mile. It is lower with synthetic oils than with conventional petroleum oils. My engines do not show either significant wear nor sludge build-up after 250,000 miles, even with the oil change intervals described. But by then the upholstery is worn, I usually have some rust spots, the transmission is starting to act up, and maybe a few other problems, such as fuel injectors, wheel bearings, etc. And I don't remember saying I changed the filter every 25000 miles. In fact, I said earlier that I changed the filter more often for most of this history. (However, now that Amsoil has filters that can go 25000 miles for some vehicles, I am using such a filter change interval.) And I am not an Amsoil salesman. I have never sold oil in my life. In fact, I started out using Ultron by Pacer Lubricants. I switched to Amsoil when Pacer Lubricants stopped selling to the general public. But I have used synthetic oils on the following vehicles: 1970 Plymouth Duster, 1978 Olds Starfire, 1980 Honda Prelude, 1984 Honda Civic, 1992 Honda Civic, 1999 Subaru Outback, 1999 Saturn SC-1, 1998 Chevrolet Suburban Diesel, 2009 Subaru Legacy, 2005 Ford F-250 Diesel, 2013 Ford F-350 Diesel and my 1980 Kubota B7100 tractor. I have had a few other vehicles that I have used conventional oils on, with a 3000 mile change interval, because they were oil leakers. Synthetic is too expensive to use when there is much oil leakage. But by all means go on using whatever oil you want. Just know that the following quote could easily come from you: "My mind is made up. Don't confuse me with the facts." And lotsa luck if you ever need to cold start at -34F. (I have done so. No problem!)