Synthetic Engine Oil Base Stocks

DeereMann · Nov 13, 2014

I was re-educating myself on the sorry state of synthetic engine oil base stocks last week. Since SAE got out of the 'synthetic' definition business, and Exxon bought Mobil (1998), it seems the race to cheapen synthetic engine oil base stocks continues. Not that I think there is anything inherently wrong with 'right-sizing' a product, but it seems deceptive marketing practices are at play also.

The original synthetic engine base oil stocks were PAO (poly alpha olephins), long chain hydrocarbons constructed from petroleum gases such as ethylene & methane. These provided excellent lubrication quality & resistance to shear down under load & temperature. API classifies these as "Group IV" today.

Now all the synthetic engine oils are classified API "Group III", which are nothing but highly refined, and/or severely hydrotreated/cracked crude oils. These operations may be a "synthesis" of sorts, but they are NOT constructed from gaseous hydrocarbons!

So what? Well, these are ok, but it is very misleading what you are buying. They do not lubricate as well, as long, or as cleanly as the original PAO's. And the big oil companies are evasive & misleading in their advertising & tech topics, IMO. Because they know they have degraded the quality. One erased blog from Exxon/Mobil talked about how supply of manufactured hydrocarbon base stocks could not be met, blah, blah, blah.

Big oil Co.'s say "well, they're good enough". Maybe so, but don't cover up what you've done! BITOG is full of this banter, depressing.

Then Pennzoil comes along with their "Platinum / Ultra" (Shell) engine oils that claim 'made from natural gas'. But if they were, they would be Group IV, not III. Claim is less deposits than de-graded Mobil 1, so I'm trying that for 1st time in my gasoline engines.

Ok, so I'm ****-retentive/OCD. I can't help it as an engineer & former lubricant field service rep. for Mobil Oil in the 80's.

Any insights welcomed.

*end rant* :hissyfit:

Wolfy · Nov 13, 2014

They may not be as good as they once were, but they are still better than regular oil. But regular oil has come a long ways as well.

2458n · Nov 13, 2014

Thank you for the heads up on Mobile -1. This is all I have used for over 32 years. I called and checked before using it in my Kubota because it did not say anything about diesel engines when it first came out. At one time STP used to have a oil out that was advertised to be good for 25,000 miles between changes and I ran it in a 620 Datsun pickup truck until it was off the market. Never went the 25,000 between changes but did alot of highway miles with it. It is not a new trick to cheapen a product; but as a marketing major in college I should have known.

3930dave · Nov 13, 2014

It's become a bit of a Shell game here..... sorry, couldn't resist :laughing:

And.... I'm not picking on Shell..... I've used plenty of T6.

It's just marketing noise mostly; serves well to increase margins on Grp III oils. Last I heard, Germany held the line on this.... it's still verboten to call a group III a synthetic in their market.

I think one of the values of BITOG is being able to match actual Used Oil Analysis reports to your own application. I've come to appreciate the real data presented there.

I've used (and still do) plenty of synthetics, but will also use conventional oil at times too. We OCD types tend to want to find the "best" product out there, but in reality, unless you are really pushing the limits, even some conventional oils test out (UOA wise) really well. Pennzoil Yellow Bottle, with its good shot of moly built in, comes to mind.

As you do enough reading on BITOG, the other thing that becomes clear is the characteristics of certain engines. Ex. - Subaru boxer 4s tend to beat the heck out of oil, showing up in the Shearing results. Is it a good idea to stretch OCI on one of these Sub engines.... probably not, even with most "synthetics".

And.... I think a trap some people fall into is thinking they can automatically stretch their OCIs, just because they bought a "synthetic". I'm thinking of retired people around here that spend most of the Winter just driving 5km trips for groceries.... that kind of problem led to a discussion on BITOG about the need for an Ultra Severe Service category......

The Glass Half Full way of looking at this noise is that since you understand the difference between Group III and IV, if you really need/want to, you know which product to pick.

Rgds, D.

ksluy · Nov 13, 2014

When you look at the new tractor oil change recommendations, like 500hr's, I cant make myself go that long. I am a car dealer and I think of the BMW oil change (drive it till the light comes on) and I see more BMW motor problems at the Factory BMW sale than any other car make. I change every 100hr's I don't care what the book say's.

Mace Canute · Nov 13, 2014

DeereMann, I use Texas Refinery Corp oil, grease and fuel conditioner. What's your educated opinion on these TRC products?

DeereMann · Nov 14, 2014

Wolfy said:
They may not be as good as they once were, but they are still better than regular oil. But regular oil has come a long ways as well.

Yeah, I know. Just a frustrated perfectionist/excellence rant. Thanks for listening.

sixdogs · Nov 14, 2014

DeereMan--excellent info

DeereMann · Nov 14, 2014

Mace Canute said:
DeereMann, I use Texas Refinery Corp oil, grease and fuel conditioner. What's your educated opinion on these TRC products?

Sorry, not familiar with those. For diesels the blogosphere seems to stay with Mobil 1 Turbodiesel 5W-40, Shell Rotella T6. Some have access to Mobil Delvac 1 (HD trucks) & Delo as well. Visit BITOG if you really want to get into it! Or ask dave3930 - he is in CA too.

DeereMann · Nov 14, 2014

Thanks 3930dave - I was hoping you'd weigh in.

Milo · Nov 14, 2014

Isn't Mobil 1 Extended Performance class IV PAO?

DeereMann · Nov 14, 2014

Milo said:
Isn't Mobil 1 Extended Performance class IV PAO?

That I do not know - but - I doubt it from what I read in BITOG forum. I googled PAO Motor Oils and all I got back was some weird specialty chemical company outfits for app. 2x the price being charged by the majors for their quasi-synthetics.

Again, nothing wrong with major oil co. synthetics - except - they aren't manufactured gaseous synthetics. They are severely treated crude oil. The only real PAO advantage is they last some % longer & stay cleaner (degrade less).

It just irks me, is all.

3930dave · Nov 14, 2014

DeereMann said:
Sorry, not familiar with those. For diesels the blogosphere seems to stay with Mobil 1 Turbodiesel 5W-40, Shell Rotella T6. Some have access to Mobil Delvac 1 (HD trucks) & Delo as well. Visit BITOG if you really want to get into it! Or ask dave3930 - he is in CA too.

TRC doesn't seem widely distributed up here. I've heard of their products, and nothing bad that I recall, but I have no direct experience.

Petro Canada's Duron line seems to have a good rep, and is noted for their wide viscosity range, 5w or 0w40 products.

Diesel Engine Oils, DURON-E | Petro-Canada

Rgds, D.

3930dave · Nov 14, 2014

DeereMann said:
That I do not know - but - I doubt it from what I read in BITOG forum. I googled PAO Motor Oils and all I got back was some weird specialty chemical company outfits for app. 2x the price being charged by the majors for their quasi-synthetics.

Again, nothing wrong with major oil co. synthetics - except - they aren't manufactured gaseous synthetics. They are severely treated crude oil. The only real PAO advantage is they last some % longer & stay cleaner (degrade less).

It just irks me, is all.

It's hard to go wrong with a good high quality base stock. While I struggle to put a contribution percentage on it, my gut feel is that the additive pack probably has more to do with the longevity issue than the base stock....... this is where I'd want to hear from dnewton3.....

I can't bring myself to leave an oil in place for 25,000 miles, so I like the way Amsoil presents their motor oil options..... kind of goes back to the olde Sears catalogue.... Good/Better/Best. If I don't push the OCI out, then the Good oil option is a nice price point.

As I recall..... T6 usually tests well in most respects, and does a good job of retaining TBN.

Rgds, D.

cowpie1 · Nov 15, 2014

The "original" synthetics were technically made from whale blubber oil in the 1800's. It is generally accepted that the first synthesized hydrocarbons were developed by Friedel and Crafts in 1877 using Aluminum TriChloride as the catalyst. The first official PAO was developed in Zurich, Switzerland in 1937. Motul marketed the first consumer synthetic for N. America in the 1966. Sorry Al, Amsoil was not the first. So much for truth in advertising.

As to whether a Group IV PAO is better than a Group III synthetic is almost picking at details that would only show themselves in a lab setting. Group III synthetics, or faux synthetics the purists call them, offer similar performance to Group IV PAO base stocks.

Performance of Base Oils and Future Trends - The Evolution of Base Oil Technology - Part 3

And the one thing that gets rarely discussed in all these synthetic oil discussions, is that the base stock is one thing, but the additive package of the oil can make or break any good base stock. The add pack can make up to 25% of a typical bottled oil or lube. A lousy add pack can make the best synthetic perform worse than a great petroleum base stock with a killer add pack.

What Goes Into an Oil: Additives - The Motor Oil Evaluator

And what is a Group V? Anything that doesn't fall into Groups I thru IV.

API Base Oil Definitions | Global Industrial Solutions

Personally, I like a blend of Group III and Group IV synthetics. They offer the best of both worlds. I get some great Group III/IV oils with exceptional additive packages from Schaeffer Oil, and it is delivered free of charge to me, along with free oil sample kits and analysis, at similar to lower cost than picking up a synthetic at Walmart. I am not into spending my dollars to have major name oils use it to support NASCAR and other uses. I want a quality oil at a reasonable cost. Fancy marketing and "official oil of..." type of stuff doesn't impress me.

cowpie1 · Nov 16, 2014

ksluy said:
When you look at the new tractor oil change recommendations, like 500hr's, I cant make myself go that long. I am a car dealer and I think of the BMW oil change (drive it till the light comes on) and I see more BMW motor problems at the Factory BMW sale than any other car make. I change every 100hr's I don't care what the book say's.

Want a really long OEM recommended OCI? Detroit Diesel has a recommended oil change interval of... (drum roll please).... 50,000 miles or 1000 hrs on it's DD15 truck engine. Chevron even proved the point by taking their Delo 400 LE engine oil out to 70,000 mile / 1400 hrs on these engines before the oil started to get to low end limits specified by Detroit.

DeereMann · Nov 17, 2014

Thanks, cowpie1.

There are a number of BITOG forum gang that go for Walmart house brand synthetic (Super Tech) for same reasons you state (no sponsor markups), I think some of them did OCI analysis and had good results.

Then again, the 'ol whale blubber oil was tried 'n true! Except the human-to-whale ratio got out of whack. :laughing:

What I was really looking for is optimal combination(s) of base oil film strength & additive pack for cleanliness for the money. It used to be PAO did that for you (with diester added to solubilize the additive pack). Then all hades broke loose in the marketer area. :duh:

On my cars this weekend I switched from Mobil 1 to Pennzoil (Shell) Platinum, if nothing more than Wally World had it for a couple bucks less per 5 qt. jug. I read it is highly respected on BITOG forum. $22.66/5qt PP vs. $26.68/5qt Mobil 1. btw, Super Tech Synthetic is $17.47/5qt.

As for diesel engine oils for our tractors, we have Mobil 1 Turbodiesel or Shell Rotella T6 to choose from. Either are fine to me. Having worked for Mobil and knowing the industrial lubricant side is their speciality, I typically use their oil. I used to use Delvac 1, but retail outlets don't carry it.

DeereMann · Nov 17, 2014

Thanks, cowpie1.

There are a number of BITOG forum gang that go for Walmart house brand synthetic (Super Tech) for same reasons you state (no sponsor markups), I think some of them did OCI analysis and had good results.

Then again, the 'ol whale blubber oil was tried 'n true! Except the human-to-whale ratio got out of whack. :laughing:

What I was really looking for is optimal combination(s) of base oil film strength & additive pack for cleanliness for the money. It used to be PAO did that for you (with diester added to solubilize the additive pack). Then all hades broke loose in the marketer area. :duh:

On my cars this weekend I switched from Mobil 1 to Pennzoil (Shell) Platinum, if nothing more than Wally World had it for a couple bucks less per 5 qt. jug. I read it is highly respected on BITOG forum. $22.66/5qt PP vs. $26.68/5qt Mobil 1. btw, Super Tech Synthetic is $17.47/5qt.

As for diesel engine oils for our tractors, we have Mobil 1 Turbodiesel or Shell Rotella T6 to choose from. Either are fine to me. Having worked for Mobil and knowing the industrial lubricant side is their speciality, I typically use their oil. I used to use Delvac 1, but retail outlets don't carry it.

cowpie1 · Nov 17, 2014

Yeah, the Walmart stuff is, or at least has been, primarily blended by Warren oil, a very reputable blender of base oils and additive packages. Truth be told, most all the oil base stocks are made by a few companies, and the additive packages are put together by a small group also. Shell, in fact, makes almost 100% of the Group II an Group II+ mineral oil base stocks for N. America. Infineum makes the lion's share of all additive packages that get blended in N. America. Chevron was the leader behind the Group III synthetic game. Mobil has been the largest producer of Group IV PAO base stocks. Most of what is put in a bottle, jug, or drum comes from these limited suppliers. There are a few other players out there, but they only have a limited part of the entire market. And the classifications that any oil has to meet is pretty restrictive in what you can do when blending. API CJ-4, SN, ILSAC GF-5, and others, all have very tight tolerances in what they will allow a blender to do and still remain in spec.

In essence, buy a quality oil that meets the spec you need, at the best price you can find, and enjoy your life.