Surveyor woes- any advice???

[Flatheadyoungin]

no, the corners i'm satisfied with......this is a large slanted square.......each side is approximately 1600ft.......when i stand on the line, i cannot see the corner markers and i want some pins on the line......this being the case, for example, i don't know if certain trees are mine......or if i were to put in a fence, i don't know where it should go....

I don't quite understand what you are having done. The property has been surveyed by a licensed surveyor recently and I would assume a stamped plat filed with the county. Plats here must note what the corner markers are, "11/2 galvanized pipe, 3/4" rebar, ect." The surveyor's magnetic spikes, pins, ribbons and wooden stakes are in place. Sounds like the corners are already marked.

Am I missing something or are you paying $1100 to have him drive some other sort of spike? I don't know why you would do that with the survey already done. If you are worried the existing marker will not last go drive some rebar 3' into the ground.

MarkV

 

[MarkV]

Sorry, I misunderstood. Here we would call that line marking which is normally done only if you are putting up fencing. A good compass will get you with in a foot or so as long as the corners are marked. Foresters and loggers are real good with a compass. Even a decent hand held GPS unit will get you with in a few feet.

MarkV

 

[riptides]

Everytime I see or hear the word survey, I cringe.

At the bottom line the old time land plots had natural markers that are still in some county books. Add free deals, and land swaps. Then add modern technology like GPS and what not.... Yep... don't forget the microfische at the court house. Better read all those old deeds.....

Got a lawyer? What I just described was interpreted four differnt ways by 4 different surveyors.

All I wanted was a boundary marker..... by a 150+ year old Stone pilllar.

 

[Pirate]

I have a long line that is a ridge in the middle and valley on the other two ends. You can't see the markers at all. It is the middle of the line that is not accurate. I want to mark it. Are ya'll saying I can take my GPS and go to the corner marker and then use that to find the exact line in the middle (on the ridge)? I thought GPS was accurate +/- 15 feet?

Edit: Never mind. I found my answer, and it isn't GPS.

 

[J_J]

I have a long line that is a ridge in the middle and valley on the other two ends. You can't see the markers at all. It is the middle of the line that is not accurate. I want to mark it. Are ya'll saying I can take my GPS and go to the corner marker and then use that to find the exact line in the middle (on the ridge)? I thought GPS was accurate +/- 15 feet?

Edit: Never mind. I found my answer, and it isn't GPS.

It is the surveyors high dollar GPS that is accurate to 5 mm. As long as your home owner/auto GPS can see 3 or 4 satellites, you should be correct within 5 to 10 ft. That is good from driveway to drive way or campground. You can use them with a metal detector and do quite well.

 

[ultrarunner]

It is the surveyors high dollar GPS that is accurate to 5 mm. As long as your home owner/auto GPS can see 3 or 4 satellites, you should be correct within 5 to 10 ft. That is good from driveway to drive way or campground. You can use them with a metal detector and do quite well.

Surveyors were in the neighborhood for a couple of days...

They set up 3 or 4 antenna units on tripods on ridges and worked off of those to the unit in the field. Surveyor said it is very accurate.

 

[riptides]

It is only as accurate as to what was recorded previously.

How many of you check your neighbors boundary lines when you get your plats done?

 

[Egon]

On the GPS systems do the surveyors and others who require a high degree of accuracy pay extra to obtain that accuracy?

 

[J_J]

It is only as accurate as to what was recorded previously.

How many of you check your neighbors boundary lines when you get your plats done?

GPS is highly accurate, and the best you can get. It puts the old surveys to shame, and also causes problems leaving doubt .In my opinion, they need to resurvey everything with GPS as the standard. Just about everybody has doubt about the old way of surveys, , because you will probably never know the qualification of the surveyor that did the survey. I have seen and talked to many surveyors, and most seem to do the best they can. It all comes to something like this, that 300 ft should always be 300 ft, but when you see three or four pins set in a ten ft circle. You have to think who's survey is most correct, and are you and your neighbor going to court over this? I know when I sight a line, or pull a line, it is usually straight. Now when I see other surveyors survey markers and pins offset from monument to monument, it concerns me greatly. The old way could be fairly accurate, if they took all the variables in to account, like chain, steel tape, temperature, inclination, declination, magnet variation, and more. Time is money, you get the point. A lot of people assume that the fence line is a good reference, not knowing the farmer might have set his fence 4 ft inside his property, or the edge of a wooded parcel, a strand of barbed wire. On one of my property lines, I have post set in cement down the line, I have barbed wire, hanging off old rotten post, and I have survey flags down the line, pins in the ground. They are close, but which line is correct? I am really disappointed in the system, except the surveyors GPS, and that is only if they know how to calibrate it, and use it. Theoretically, you should be able to say take a parcel of land of 1000 acres, and survey the perimeter, and then break that into a hundred different size parcels, and when finished, each of the smaller parcels should equal the 1000 acres, by physical or electronic measurement of each parcel .

 

[Egon]

each of the smaller parcels should equal the 1000 acres, by physical or electronic measurement of each parcel .

You should add a disclaimer indicating a plus/minus factor that again depends on the quality and accuracy of the electronics involved.

 

[J_J]

You should add a disclaimer indicating a plus/minus factor that again depends on the quality and accuracy of the electronics involved.

5 mm is pretty small don't you think. The GPS system should be calibrated at a state calibrated test site. and the system with serial # certified by date and operator qualified by date.

 

[Egon]

The discrepancies may be small but they will be there.

The instruments can be calibrated but each individual component of the instrument has a +/- factor in it's manufacturing accuracy. This component accuracy is what separates the inexpensive from the expensive in most cases.

Atmospheric conditions will also be a factor as will be the satellite control factors.

All in all there is a whole mess of things that can be added in the accuracy factors. Sad to say I am not cognizant to most of them.

They are well beyond my educational and native intelligence capacity.

 

[survriggs]

Very interesting thread. I've been a licensed surveyor for almost 25 years and owned my own business for 22 of those. I've heard most of everyone's comments at one time or the other. I totally agree, there is no excuse for not returning calls if he is deliberately doing so. I could go on for hours trying to address all of the questions and comments that were posed here but I'll try to help out on a few of them. I am licensed in several states but not Ohio but these answers are not state-specific. I think every one of your questions and comments have merit. It just tells me that we surveyors as a whole are not doing our jobs educating the public about what we really do.

1. GPS is just a high-tech measuring tool. There are no available resources that provide survey grade corner coordinates that I know of. Basically GPS allows me to measure between points that I can't see between. 5 mm accuracy is possible to achieve. And, yes sometimes we think the GPS lies. It usually is operator error. That is why a prudent surveyor will build redundancy into his work. Occupy the point a second time a few hours later when there is a different GPS constellation.

2. Junior-Senior rights: The first deed recorded has senior rights over a subsequently filed adjoining deed. (you can't sell what you don't own). You have a 200 ft. wide platted lot. You sell the east 100 feet of a lot to party A, and later sell the west 100 feet to party B. After a survey you find out that the lot only contains 199.5 feet between the original markers. Party B only gets 99.5 ft. as that is all you had to sell.

3. Any surveyor that accepts another surveyors marks accepts responsibility for their correctness as if he had set them. It would be advantageous to get the original surveyor to mark the lines between the corners. I do not accept another surveyor's work without some checks which usually makes my fee a little higher. Anyone is capable of making an error. I just make sure I don't perpetuate one.

4. When people ask me how much is costs to mark their four corners I sometimes tell them that we mark the corners for free. We just charge for determining the correct place to put them. In most states there is no statute of limitations for surveys. The survey that I do today I will be responsible for till I die and can be called into court to defend that survey any time in between. Remember, when I survey your boundaries, I'm also determining the boundaries of adjoiners. I will want to review their deeds also to determine if there are any jr/sr right issues; overlaps or gaps. This is where you get differences from surveyors surveying adjoining properties. Sure, the neighbors deed overlaps onto your tract but if the surveyor has researched correctly and has determined who has the senior deed there should only be one marker, not two. There can be a difference between what you have a deed to and what you actually have title to. Title is affected by several things including the encumbrance of a senior deed.

5. "you get three different surveyors and they'll put the corner in three different places" Wow! this one is a real headscratcher. Unfortunately surveying is not an exact science. OK, don't cut me off just yet... Measuring is not exact either. You can line up 10 surveyors to measure the same line and you'll get 10 different measurements, guaranteed. And that's not because one of them is right and 9 are wrong. If their equipment is in good adjustment the measurements should be within an acceptable standard of error. The other difference between surveyors may be their analysis of evidence, their analysis of the intent of the parties when conflicting elements occur. For example, I think the old stone (not of record) that sits near the old fence corner is the section corner. Another surveyor's opinion is that the old pipe 5 feet away fits the distances to the other section corners better and bases his survey on that. I found the same old pipe but a landowner said that he drove it to tether his horse to. The other surveyor didn't have a chance to talk to the landowner etc. etc. etc. I know we only hear about the bad cases.

I hope you don't think I'm defending poor surveying practice or "trying to set some of you straight"; I'm not. I'm glad to be a TBN'er and have gained a lot of knowledge just reading the threads. Hopefully I can give a little back with something that I know somewhat about. With the surveying profession there are always misconceptions about what we do, why we do it, etc. I could go on for a long time but better hang it up. Fortunately business is good so I won't be able to participate on a regular basis in this thread but will check in every so often.

Ralph L. Riggs, PLS
Riggs & Associates, Inc. - Land Surveyors in Missouri, Arkansas, & Kansas & Oklahoma
Ruble, Riggs, & Shotts, LLC - Home Surveyors in MO, AR, KS, IL, CO

 

[EddieWalker]

Ralph,

Thanks for joining in and taking the time for a such a detailed explination of what you do. It's probably the easiest to read explination that I've come across!!!!

Eddie

 

[Flatheadyoungin]

Yes, that's some good info......thanks for sharing......

Just like most professions, what people see on the surface, doesn't even come close to what happens behind the scenes.

I like this guy, most people I know like the guy, he seems to do great work, I just can't get him to call me back. I'll continue to try and call. I haven't actually left a message for a while......just called at various times......and I'm sure he is out in the field.

Thanks for taking the time to share....

 

[yomax4]

My intent is not to keep this going but I wanted to ask, As long as there are surveyors in this thread, Why would my Plat read that " No Marker was placed at the request of the land owner". That is what is says for 2 corners of my property. The origional surveyor wants another $1000.00 to come out and place them. It was also done with GPS. Anyone know why someone would request no markers? Its all woods.

Thanks.
MM.

 

[survriggs]

Why would my Plat read that " No Marker was placed at the request of the land owner". That is what is says for 2 corners of my property.

Thanks.
MM.

I'm assuming that your plat is from a prior owner. Let's say that when the survey is complete the boundary line is on your side of the fence several feet. If the surveyor sets the markers the neighbor may see them and want to move his fence over to the line therefore reducing the size of the land area that you are using. You then would have to make a decision; move the fence or try to establish a claim of adverse possession which involves costly litigation. If the neighbor sees no markers he doesn't know that the fence isn't on the line. Of course if you are in an area that requires filing of all surveys; the survey is public record. But... if the surveyor files the plat, he may not show the encroaching fence... which in most states is a requirement. The other reason is that the owner may not have wanted to pay the surveyor to mark the other corners. He may have only wanted 1 side of his property marked and at the time didn't care about the rest of it or it was an economical issue.

Ralph R.

 

[J_J]

Thanks Ralph, I appreciate your comments.

Just where does the professionalism come in? From the old guy that has been doing it all his life, his son who took over the business, the college grad, to the state certified surveyor, to the home owner. We all should have rights of being right, but we can't say that anymore. The judge in the property line dispute doesn't know anything about the subject, how can he make an educated ruling.

When a surveyor is task with dividing up a property, is he not the one to write the description of the smaller parcels, and if he is wrong, does that initial land description become gospel, and establish senior rights. Who transfers the property description to the warranty deed, etc. This subject is very interesting, mainly to the people that have been involved in disputes over 6 in to yards or miles. Some people just want it and want to be right.

 

[yomax4]

Thanks Everyone. Good stuff here.

MM.

 

[survriggs]

Thanks Ralph, I appreciate your comments.

Just where does the professionalism come in? From the old guy that has been doing it all his life, his son who took over the business, the college grad, to the state certified surveyor, to the home owner. We all should have rights of being right, but we can't say that anymore. The judge in the property line dispute doesn't know anything about the subject, how can he make an educated ruling.

When a surveyor is task with dividing up a property, is he not the one to write the description of the smaller parcels, and if he is wrong, does that initial land description become gospel, and establish senior rights. Who transfers the property description to the warranty deed, etc. This subject is very interesting, mainly to the people that have been involved in disputes over 6 in to yards or miles. Some people just want it and want to be right.

JJ:
Very good questions...I consider myself a professional but to describe what constitutes a professional leaves me somewhat at a loss for words. I would say that sufficient experience or advanced training in a specific field that differentiates one from an amateur would fill the bill.
Now the judge: Most judges in the lower courts are only concerned with equity. Case law does not seem to be a consideration until you get into the appellate level or into the supreme courts. In the lower courts it has been my experience that the expert witness (the surveyor) that can convince the judge that his survey is correct will prevail. And you are absolutely correct that most judges are not familiar with case law relating to land or established survey procedures.
More on Jr./Sr. rights: You have to understand that this subject has many answers. There is no definite yes or no. I can come up with a scenario where the initial land description becomes gospel, and establish senior rights and where it does not. There can be circumstances that affect each case differently. It is impossible to answer a generic "what if" question without the complete history and details.
Yes, when a surveyor subdivides a parcel he is the one that should write the descriptions. In that case there should never be any overlaps or gaps in the interior lines.
Most people think that land surveying is a cut and dried exact science but every day I determine the locations of property corners where my decision relies on case law, statute law, the BLM Manual of Surveying Instructions, resident affidavits, testimony of local residents, intention of the parties and stacks of reference materials. When I stamp and seal a survey I have tried to the best of my ability to assure that it will stand the scrutiny of an appellate or supreme court should it ever appear there.
I hope I have not muddied up the water too much.

Ralph R.