Surround Sound Advice

OKnewguy · Aug 31, 2011

I got started in Home A/V back around 90. I worked at a high end company installing and setting up the systems. Back then we had a number of clients that spent $100,000 on there STEREO stuff. These systems were incredible! But we are talking about Krell monoblock amps and Nautilus speakers. Anyway, the market started to move to high end home theater (around 93-94ish) . About 95 I moved to pro audio (stadiums, mega churches) and was out of things for a bit. I invested some pretty big bucks for a system around 97 (dolby pro logic), it was great for around 4 or 5 years, and then I wanted to get a system for the main room and leave one in the tv room. I bought an Onkyo 5.1. The Digital surround was a Major change. I have a couple now.
All of this is to explain the big changes that have happened. You can get darn good sound out of these systems now! It used to cost 10k to have a decent system, and now you can get 95% of that sound for under $1000. These Onkyo systems are the best bang for the buck! If you search around, and review them they get great reviews. I have always liked them, because many of the systems have gone to cube/satellite systems (Bose). This Bose style is crap, They take your mids and add it into the subs and then you have these little mid/high tweeters. I never have liked that design because your mids are directional and now they are all coming from your sub.
Onkyo!
Sorry for long post, and good luck!
Dave

Marveltone · Aug 31, 2011

At the risk of sounding like I'm brand bashing, I'd stay away from Bose. Why? Several reasons:

1. They are built using cheap materials. Most of their speakers have foam surrounds which work fine for a while, but will dry up and disintegrate after about 10 years or so. Most high quality speakers use either butyl rubber or treated paper which last many times longer.

2. Limited sound reproduction. Bose likes to try reproducing full range audio through tiny drivers. Physics will tell you in order to get room shaking bass, you need to move lots and lots of air. The only way to do this is through displacement, usually involving a huge piston (speaker), although an array of smaller speakers have been known to work. Just one or two tiny drivers will not get the floor shaking. Also, without a dedicated tweeter, the highs will be vague or muddy.

3. Overpriced for what you're getting. You can do better.

There are many good companies making excellent speakers for consideration. Celestion, DCM, Klipsch, Polk, Paradigm, Altec Lansing, JBL, Advent, just to name a few.

As far as Denon and Onkyo go, I have a Denon AV receiver and absolutely love it. Very crisp, clean sound. Onkyo has, what I consider to be even better amplifier sections than the Denon, so they are what I would consider to be a slight upgrade from Denon. But this is something you may or may not even hear, depending on the listening environment and speakers. You claim to have a tin-ear, so get whichever has the features you like for the best price, as they are both quality brands.

Yamaha also makes very good products in the higher end of their line-up. Also worth a look.

Want a good stand-alone sub-woofer that will rattle the bomnes? Look no further than Velodyne!

Okay, I'm getting long-winded, so I'll shut up now.

Joe

Kyle_in_Tex · Aug 31, 2011

Eddie, I just recently bought a Denon receiver on auction and it is OK. Not awesome but good. Of course I'm comparing it to my oldie but goodie McIntosh amp. It is not a real high end model. You can find them for $99 on Amazon.

I just got a home surround system and I had some different parameters while shopping. 1st, I have kids. Kids are hard on speakers, stands, etc. They will tear up most anything. 2nd, I wanted something with as few of wires as possible to eliminate clutter.

Here's what I bought:
Polk Audio : Sound Bars - BestBuy

I got the 6000 model Polk audio. I would rate it a 4.5 out of 5 stars. My other home stereo is old school McIntosh/JBL studio monitors so I know what sounds good to me. It doesn't need a preamp or amp, it uses a fiber optic cable straight from your TV. The base woofer module can be plugged in on another wall or behind a couch or such. I have to admit I was skeptical about its abilities when I bought it. My neighbor came over one day and we were watching an AMA motocross program in HD, we heard a bike get kick started and we both looked out my home's side window looking for a motorcycle. ha ha. Then we looked at each other in amazement!!! So, their technology works. As far as kid proof, it has a durable hard metal mesh over the speaker bar and the kids can't poke their fingers in the speaker cones. Whew! Not to mention they've knocked it off the TV cabinet three times and it still works. I guess I need to mount it to the wall above the TV.

dmccarty · Sep 1, 2011

Just to make it more complex.....

15 or so years ago my old speakers rotted away.

So I went shopping. I went to Best Buys/Circuit City and spent WAY too much time listening to the different speaks they had in the listening room. I listening to classical music, Jazz, Rock, video sources, etc and compared the speakers.

I WANTED small speakers.

I ended up with big honking speakers.

Dang things are a pain to place in a room and as a result they are in the study on TOP of a wall unit. :laughing: They sound MUCH better than the surround sound speakers we have in the living room but there is no place for the huge speakers.

The bigger speakers sound so much better but they simply will not fit into the room.

As with so many things, you have to find a balance in audio equipment. I would go listen to the speakers, with a variety of music and audio, and HOPEFULLY what you like will fit the space.

Later,
Dan

2manyrocks · Sep 1, 2011

Paradigm studio monitors aren't huge, but sound good. Add a powered subwoofer if you want thump.

One problem with speaker shopping is your ears get tired--I think sales people intentionally crank them up to make it worse, and in many stores, there is so much other noise, you can't hear yourself think anyway.

Marveltone · Sep 1, 2011

2manyrocks said:
Paradigm studio monitors aren't huge, but sound good. Add a powered subwoofer if you want thump.

:thumbsup:

One problem with speaker shopping is your ears get tired--I think sales people intentionally crank them up to make it worse, and in many stores, there is so much other noise, you can't hear yourself think anyway.

Another trick sales people do is mess with the EQ or tone controls to make the speakers sound "better". Do yourself a favor. When you go into a store to listen to speakers, make sure you listen to music from an album you know. I mean, bring a CD from home. Next, find out which amp is feeding the speakers and make sure all the tone controls are set flat (no boost or cut). Remember, you want to hear what the speakers really sound like; not what the sales people want you to think they sound like.

Joe

aczlan · Sep 2, 2011

Marveltone said:
When you go into a store to listen to speakers, make sure you listen to music from an album you know. I mean, bring a CD from home.

A good one is Mannheim Steamroller - Hallelujah (2007 - Mannheim Steamroller - Hallelujah - YouTube)
The sales droid will look at you like you are nuts, but that song hits high, low, in the middle and needs to be clear. Any distortion is obvious.

Aaron Z

EddieWalker · Sep 2, 2011

I'm leaning towards Denon right now. I go from liking the Onkyo, to getting nervous about it. There are some complaints about quality, and I'm reading over and over again about how hot they get. One of the big selling points to me about my LCD tv compared to the Plasma was just touching the screens and comparing how hot Plasma gets compared to mine.

I'm also beginning to wonder if I'm just splitting hairs and over thinking this. I know that I don't have much of an ear for music, and this isn't for music. I want to feel the sound when watching a blueray. From everything I'm reading over at AVForums, just about everything does this.

I'm getting real close to buying. Maybe if I see a good sale over the weekend, I'll go for it!!!

Thank you,
Eddie

ttriff · Sep 2, 2011

One of the better options for lower cost speakers is the Pioneer SP-BS41-LR Speaker System

Several magazines including Stereophile have tested these and given them good reviews

Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha are all good and will do what you need.

Frequently you can buy last years model receivers at significant discounts. B-Stock/refurbished or demo units are also good buys

Plasmas get hotter, they are also much more fragile than LCD. Plasmas can't be transported laying down without a high potential for them to be damaged.

FWTW, I'm a recovering audio/video-holic who's been building stereo speakers for 50yrs. As a result, I know a thing to two about this stuff ......

cdaigle430 · Sep 2, 2011

massey990 said:
I'm no AV expert but many recommend turning down (all the way) the inferrior TV's speakers and use the center channel

Yes,
The center channel speaker and and center channel speaker AV output are desined specifically for that.

gsganzer · Sep 2, 2011

I agree with you Eddie, the home electronics is a whole different world. I had a co-worker that used to own a high end consumer electronics company and had some speakers squirreled away for himself, just in case he ever built a new home. He finally decided he'd never use them and talked me into buying them for $50 each. He had two fronts and two rears (I added a center and base later) They're made by "Speakercraft" and I'd never even heard of them. They mount in the wall, so when I built my 20 x 30 foot addition, I had them put in. They're incredible!! I never would have thought a in-the-wall speaker would sound as good as these do. Turns out, they normally sell for about $1000/pair and have a pretty good reputation.

jwstewar · Sep 6, 2011

When we moved into the new house 2008 I spent quite a bit of time looking at stereo receivers. I've had a surround sound system since about '93 and really missed it while we lived in the house trailer after the fire. So I wanted a decent system. I spent a lot of time looking around and listening to different systems. Came down to Onkyo, Denon, and Yamaha. Almost bought a Yamaha system, but then I started playing with it a little bit more and just didn't like the controls on it. So I ruled them out. Then on the Onkyo and Denon. I liked both and was really torn. Read quite a few reviews really like the Onkyo especially the new (at that time) model just coming out. So I went with that. 1200 watt 7.1. I really liked that system especially paired with my 52" Samsung. One thing to note, I didn't use the rear speakers that came with it. I bought a pair of 8" Polk to mount in the ceiling. Then last May we took a huge power surge and fried a bunch of stuff in the house including the 52" Sammy and the Onkyo Receiver. I started shopping again - but I started with a much shorter list. This time only consider Onkyo and Denon. I ended up with another Onkyo 1200 watt 7.1 and a 60" Sharp Quatron.

Incidentally, I started messing with the stereo after we had the new one. The only thing it messed up was the HDMI port on it. Everything else works great. I moved the stereo to the basement and hooked the kids' game systems up to it and used component video and typical R/L audio cables.

jwstewar · Sep 6, 2011

Another note, we were at HH Gregg a couple of weeks ago buying a new TV for our camper. The tuner went out of the 2 year old 19" LCD Sharp that came in it. So I replaced it with a 24" LED 1080p Curtis for $169. Figure for the camper might as well go as cheap as possible, but anyway, the salesmen there were all gaga over the latest and greatest Bose and had to crank it up and have me listen to it. I wasn't impressed and told them that. I said it didn't hold a candle to my Onkyo that was about 1/3 the cost of it. I felt the Onkyo was louder with much, much less distortion and you could feel the Onkyo. Didn't feel anything from the Bose other than your ears hurting as it was "squeeling" trying to produce the sound - even when not cranked.

dmccarty · Sep 6, 2011

Marveltone said:
... Remember, you want to hear what the speakers really sound like; not what the sales people want you to think they sound like.

Joe

I tell the sales people to leave me alone.

I might have to tell them over and over but they eventually do leave me alone. :laughing:

One great device I used as a Salesman Force Field was my cell phone. I was talking to SWMBO in the store and I noticed that the sales people would walk over, see me on the phone and walk away. I was only talking to the wife for a few minutes but I pretended to to be on the phone for about an hour while looking at TVs.

If the sales people started towards me I started talking to the wife. :laughing: Who was not on the line.

So either the sales people thought I was talking to someone or they decided to stay away from the guy pretending to talk on the phone. :laughing:

:laughing:

For whatever reason they left me alone. :thumbsup:

Shopping for speakers during the week and/or later in the night clears out the people who just want to see how loud the speakers will go.....

Later,
Dan

EddieWalker · Sep 6, 2011

I made my decision and went with these speakers.

Amazon.com: Energy 5.1 Take Classic Home Theater System (Set of Six, Black): Electronics

I can't find a better review then what these get at every site that I've looked. I've never heard of them, but have heard of all the other brands. I considered some other brands, but the reviews really decided it for me.

And this receiver.

Amazon.com: Denon AVR-1312 5.1 Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver: Electronics

I was hesitant because there are only three reviews on Amazon on this receiver, but it is the same as the 1311 and 390 model from last year, just with a few updates. I thought about saving $50 and buying last years model, but figured it was only $50. The other reviews are mostly all positive on it with a few quirks that seem common enough in all the models that I read up on. I'm also not sure how fantatical some of these guys are who review and if their standards are so high as to be impossible for me to even comprehend the differneces that seem so important to them.

My head was really spinning on reading up on this, and I appreciate all the advice you guys gave me. I'll update with what I think about it when it gets here.

Thank you,
Eddie

Tony_S · Sep 6, 2011

Hmmmm.....
No highs......no lows.....must be Bose!
:laughing:

aczlan · Sep 6, 2011

jwstewar said:
the salesmen there were all gaga over the latest and greatest Bose and had to crank it up and have me listen to it. I wasn't impressed and told them that. I said it didn't hold a candle to my Onkyo that was about 1/3 the cost of it. I felt the Onkyo was louder with much, much less distortion and you could feel the Onkyo. Didn't feel anything from the Bose other than your ears hurting as it was "squeeling" trying to produce the sound - even when not cranked.

As they say, there is no replacement for displacement (with engines or speakers).

Aaron Z

dhyayi · Sep 7, 2011

EddieWalker said:
I made my decision and went with these speakers.

Amazon.com: Energy 5.1 Take Classic Home Theater System (Set of Six, Black): Electronics

I can't find a better review then what these get at every site that I've looked. I've never heard of them, but have heard of all the other brands. I considered some other brands, but the reviews really decided it for me.

And this receiver.

Amazon.com: Denon AVR-1312 5.1 Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver: Electronics

I was hesitant because there are only three reviews on Amazon on this receiver, but it is the same as the 1311 and 390 model from last year, just with a few updates. I thought about saving $50 and buying last years model, but figured it was only $50. The other reviews are mostly all positive on it with a few quirks that seem common enough in all the models that I read up on. I'm also not sure how fantatical some of these guys are who review and if their standards are so high as to be impossible for me to even comprehend the differneces that seem so important to them.

My head was really spinning on reading up on this, and I appreciate all the advice you guys gave me. I'll update with what I think about it when it gets here.

Thank you,
Eddie

I bought this with an Onkyo TX-SR606 reciever. I could not be more pleased. I am not an audio expert, but I listen to enough music to know the difference between bad and good speakers. These are excellent.

EddieWalker · Sep 12, 2011

UPS delivered everything a day early, on Thursday. Both the speakers and receiver where packaged very well, and here was no sign of damage to the boxes.

The instructions for the speakers are pretty much worthless. Of course, they are speakers and pretty simple to figure out.

The Denon receiver's instructions where not much better. After trying to figure them out, I just winged it by what was labled off of the back. Nowhere could I find anything about what the settings are, or how to even get to them. There are some on screen instructions, but getting there and figuring out what they do is still something that I'm working on. I'm rather disapoined in that.

My Direct TV box does not have a plug for HDMI cables. I cannot use it through my receiver, so I ran RCA plugs for sound and then used coaxial cable to run the picture right into the tv. It's takes a few steps to go from watching TV to watching a blue ray.

I called Direct to see about a new box, and found out they wanted almost a hundred bucks for the box and instalation. They also want another ten bucks a month for the box. I called Dish and they are going to give me two boxes, free instalation and no additional montly fee. For what I was paying with Direct TV, I ill get 60 more channels with Dish. They are supposed to be here Saturday morning.

The sound is great. Very clear, and crisp. It is all around me. I love listening to the radio!!!! Bluray movies are also very impressive. It gets way louder then I can deal with, so there is more then enough power for my use.

I'm figuring out the receiver by pushing buttons and seeing what happens. I'm disapointed in the manuel, but enjoying the sound quality that I'm getting.

Eddie