Starter problem, 354

[greg_g]

Are the clutch's in those bendix replaceable as components.. or are they simple repalced with a new unit assembly?

100-200 hrs seems like such a short life for a starter gear...

Soundguy

It's a short life indeed, unless abused. Most of that abuse can be attributed to excessive cranking. The OE wiring is partially at fault, hence the manufacturer's recommended wait time between starting attempts. Larger gauge wire will fix part of the problem, not overheating the starter should fix the other part.

Originally, you could only get the entire starter/solenoid assembly under warranty. But a few years ago the dealers wised up and started ordering them as separate components. But since then, I haven't heard of any stocking parts below that level.

//greg//

 

[AlanB]

Just a thought from the sidelines, May be entirely irrellevant but something that crossed my mind.

Could it be that instead of not engaging enough, it is hitting the flywheel then starting to spin?

I know you said everything was tight and aligned, but there has to be a "little" bit of slop in there for everything to work. When you said the teeth where fully engaged (I am picturing shiny marks on the bottom of ringgear tooth) I am just wondering if it would be possible for the starter gear to slide out, and touch the face of the ring, and then spin?

Kind of the opposite of what would be normal, but just a WAG and something to consider and dismiss possibly.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Yes Alan, that is a possibility and it has been mentioned before. It was suggested I use magic marker, chalk, or some such marking method on the pinion gear to find out. Yet the point is that there has been a change after 200 hours from the starter engaging flawlessly to where today it doesn't engage at all. The starter had not been taken out or moved in any way during those 200 hours. Only after it failed did I remove it. So misalignment seems to have a very low probability.

Also the starter fits in its berth with absolutely no slop. There is no play other than rotating it so the bolt holes are in the right place. Once it's been tightened up, you can take the bolts out and the starter does not move, does not fall out, because of the press fit. I have to yank on the starter to get it out of its tightly machined fit.

I've ordered a starter drive. As soon as I receive it we'll know whether it is the culprit or something else.

 

[greg_g]

I've ordered a starter drive. As soon as I receive it we'll know whether it is the culprit or something else.

While you're waiting for it to arrive, you might consider replacing the wire between the keyswitch and the solenoid with 10 or 12 gauge. I'm pretty sure what you have now isn't any bigger than 16 gauge. And if yours is a glow plug engine, they would likely benefit from larger diameter wire as well.

//greg//

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

While I'm waiting I've got firewood to cut and haul, logs waiting to be sawn into lumber, a bathroom to build from scratch, plenty of renovations on my father's house to complete, picture frames to make from the hardwood I've sawn into lumber as well as numerous other woodworking projects, and that does not include what I do to earn money. There I have an estimate on a roofing and siding job due, an appointment on Friday with hopes our snowstorm will be over and plowed, I've yet to finish my taxes for the year and send them out, which is why I'm sitting here on the computer at three in the morning, trying to finalize that. Then of course there is the starter to repair when the drive comes in and I really need to adjust the valves, and attend to solving the thermostat problem as per suggestions on these tractor boards. I just lit the fire in the woodstove and am about to head into Turbotax.

Oh yes, there's all the projects I have for when the ground shows itself again, using the tractor I hope to have running by the weekend. I'm afraid that changing the OEM wire size is a little lower on my priority list.

 

[greg_g]

I'm afraid that changing the OEM wire size is a little lower on my priority list.

OK. Get back to me then, when the issue re-appears

//greg//

 

[Soundguy]

I have to agree with greg. While the wire size may not have directly caused the problem.. It certaintly could have contributed to the problem. Undersized wire causes significant voltage drop.. voltage drop means more current has to flow for a circuit to work ( if the circuit will even work ).. All around.. it's hard on the system with undersized wire. With what you have planned onthe tractor ( setting valves and replacing starter drive ).. the wire replacement will be the easiest by far.. and if you are prepaired.. should only take a few minutes.. probably not more than 15-20 for everything greg mentioned.

Good luck

Soundguy

 

[AlanB]

Yes Alan, that is a possibility and it has been mentioned before. It was suggested I use magic marker, chalk, or some such marking method on the pinion gear to find out. Yet the point is that there has been a change after 200 hours from the starter engaging flawlessly to where today it doesn't engage at all. The starter had not been taken out or moved in any way during those 200 hours. Only after it failed did I remove it. So misalignment seems to have a very low probability.

Also the starter fits in its berth with absolutely no slop. There is no play other than rotating it so the bolt holes are in the right place. Once it's been tightened up, you can take the bolts out and the starter does not move, does not fall out, because of the press fit. I have to yank on the starter to get it out of its tightly machined fit.

I've ordered a starter drive. As soon as I receive it we'll know whether it is the culprit or something else.

I guess my thought on the change would be that in 200 hours of use, the end bearing or sleeve on the starter wore, allowing more slop then it had when it was new. Something that was marginal and worked before, with a couple thousandths wear on that bearing, now does not.

Sounds like you are too busy anyway, sorry to bother you.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Alan, I don't consider myself too busy. Time for myself and my sweetheart is my number one priority. What I was doing was prioritizing my time. Each person on this board has an issue with the tractors that he feels is very important. Greg has stressed the wire size many times. Soundguy agrees with him. For others its making sure the fluids are flushed thoroughly and changing fluids often. Still others emphasize valve lash. Each of us has priorities on what needs to be done on the tractor. My priorities are mine and may not be the same. The wire issue is lower for me than Greg or Soundguy.

The time it will take for me to change out a wire consists primarily in making sure I have the right wire, the right ends, and hooking it up right. I know I don't have the proper wire ends in my shop, so that means a trip to the hardware store. I figure the job at a minimum of an hour, perhaps longer. There are many ways I'll spend that hour before I get to the wire, unless the evidence points to it being the culprit.

I don't think undersized wire contributes in any way to the clutch on the starter drive failing, if that is what indeed the problem turns out to be. And I've bet with hard earned cash that it is. When I bypass the ignition wiring by jumping at the starter or hooking it up on the bench, the starter sounds no different than when energized by the ignition wiring. My conclusion is that the evidence doesn't point to the wire size being a factor at this point.

 

[Soundguy]

SC.. I think what alot of people are trying to tell you, as that you may not find a big 'problem' pop out and say 'I'm it.. I caused the problem'. IE.. no smoking gun or direct evidence. There is a significant probability, given the fit and finish and assembly line style work that is turned out on these machines that there may be -many- small contributing factors all working together that may for instance.. have caused the clutch to fail. Could be a handfull all at the same time. Start with a clutch that is marginal... both materials and machining. Add in substandard wireing, add in a bushing with a defect, or not perfectly machined.. or a housing that is at the edge of tolerance.. Everything works 'goof nuf' when it rolls out the door. Crank it over a hundred times and that non aligned shaft or slightly out of round bushing may have let that clutched drive not engage well.. add a minute drag due to undersized wireing.. now multiply that by the number of starts in 200 hrs.. and you may have real problem.. with no definate cause.

The flip side of this is that is simple could have been a bad drive that just happened to make it a hair past the HEF time period before it let go.

The reason we are offering of these many ideas is simply.. that 200 hrs is just way too short a time for that type of part to last. Looking at the real world... it's not unreasonable to see a starter drive gear last the entire service life of the engine... it's not uncommon either.. Only one of my antiques has a replaced new style starter drive ( clutch style as a matter of fact! ).. the rest have what was oem on them when they rolled out the door.. 50-60 years ago.

You are correct.. your time is your time.. it's up to you to do with it as you please. However.. one day you may find yourself stranded down the road with no easy way to get back or get the tractor back due to a starter drive that strangely went out again after 200 more hours! We just want you to be aware of that.. that's why we keep bringinh up these ideas..

Good luck

Soundguy

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

When I look at a problem I look for evidence. I've set forth the evidence I've gathered and the observations I've made. Soundguy, in your last post what struck me most is your series of assumptions: marginal clutch, substandard wiring, bushing and housing not machined well with many crankings exacerbating each of these, to the point where all of them add up to a starter not engaging. Or we have a clutch that is slipping. For me, when assumptions pile up, I look for the simplest explanation. Each one of these assumptions may be perfectly reasonable on their own. But all of these assumptions must be reasonable and have actually happened in this case for this line of reasoning to give an accurate result.

Either the clutch is bad and must be replaced anyway or all the machining defects must be aligning together to make the pinion gear hit the flywheel out of it's designed tolerances rather than engaging it. Upgrading the wire won't solve the problem in either case. I provided evidence that the undersized wire is not affecting the action of the starter in this case, at least as far as my ability with starter observations is concerned. I also did not observe slop in the pinion gear on its shaft and was quite impressed with how well the starter fit into its housing. The pinion gear showed wear I felt was indicative of good meshing.

I don't claim much experience with Jinma's, and nothing but adequate experience with machinery mechanics in general. But I do understand problem solving and the amazing power of assumptions to cause well intentioned people to reach conclusions forced by their assumptions.

In my opinion the evidence points to the clutch in the starter. I'd be interested in alternate explanations using the evidence I've presented here. Or explanations on why and how I'm misreading the evidence.

 

[greg_g]

I'm curious how a such busy fella has the time to approach a help forum. Besides length explanations why you're right and we're all wrong, seems so far all you've accomplished is to order a part you quite possibly don't even need.

I love the irony; you've likely spent more time typing, than it would have taken to replace a wire or two.

//greg//

 

[rutty creek]

S C
Your cards are on the table. I agree that not all things happen/contribute to failure and you are taking the logical path to problem solve. If you performed all the improvements mentioned, would be able to tell which was the actual problem, if the starter works properly. We are all anxious to see you get this repaired and to share with us your new knowledge. If the starter drive corrects the problem, you can upgrade during >60 degree temps, which looks like it won't be for a while. Good luck !!

 

[rutty creek]

Greg,
I don't think S C is saying anybody is wrong and he is certainly being gentleman about trying to reply to suggestions and the reasons he has chosen this path. I wish I had your knowledge about tractors, and appreciate and consider all input, just need to tap into some of my own occasionally.

Thanks for taking the time to help! I've learned a lot from your input over time.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Thanks rutty creek for your words of encouragement. One of the reasons I enjoy posting to this forum is for the ideas and opinions offered. Please don't think I'm bashing your ideas, Greg. You offer much experience and knowledge. When I was growing up my parents encouraged active discussions and expected us to back up our positions with logic and evidence. You've championed the idea that the size of the ignition wire is a major factor. I've offered evidence that I see/hear that the wire size issue is not affecting the starter on my tractor. It's not that I don't understand wire size, voltage, and current. I studied physics in college and have done a fair bit of wiring in my business. If I were building the tractor I would have used a larger wire size, yes. But for me the bottom line is always evidence, not theory. I fail to observe that there is a difference in my starter performance between using the ignition wire and bypassing it.

The reason I spend time here is because I enjoy exchanging ideas. I have no problem with you disagreeing with me, I welcome it! But I also enjoy backing up my reasoning and asking you to back up yours. How else am I to learn about Jinma's? Many on these forums express interesting opinions about the tractors. Fewer provide solid reasoning and evidence for their reasoning. I feel that evidence always trumps opinion and theory. And I was taught that if it ain't broke, don't fix it, and I mean taught the hard way, by experience.

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Seems that the clutch was the problem. I received a new starter from my dealer. After I installed it the tractore started immediately and started two more times after. Problem seems to be solved!

Thanks to everyone for their help!

 

[rutty creek]

Good goin!
Now, if we can just get rid of the Noreaster and move on to some seat time i'll be happy !
Thanks for keeping us posted.

 

[3RRL]

sc,
Glad to hear your problem is fixed. As I recall your deductive reasoning led you to identify the problem, and you were right.
Good job man.

 

[AlanB]

Glad you got it fixed.

Did you change the entire starter or just the drive?

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Since my tractor was under warrantee, my dealer sent me a brand new starter. I also ordered a starter drive so I could fix the old starter and make doubly sure that was the problem as well as giving me a backup starter. Today it's partly sunny up here in northern Vermont and I'm getting some seat time on the tractor! Been leveling an ancient pile of stones and moving gravel to make way for a new home for the tractor. Nice to see the sun again!