Starter problem, 354

[Soundguy]

Looks like that fork drive gear is a bit gooey greasy dirty.. any chance it is binding? Cold grease may be pretty sticky and not let the fork throw out.

At least on ford bendix, if there is any oil or grease on them.. they don't throw out good. They gotta be shiny-eat-off-them clean. or dry-lubed.

Havn't worked with the chinese..so i can't say for syre that is it.. but I'd clean it with brake cleaner.. hit it with graphite lube and see what that got me..

Soundguy

 

[rutty creek]

Ahhh,,, the luxury of a heated garage,, didn't take that into account,,anyway,, in your last photo you can see a small diameter circlip(round wire) partially exposed in slot of end piece; work that out and on the other side is a round ring cut in half that is in a deep groove on the shaft that takes a little work to get out, if yours is the same as mine. I used a 90 deg. pick. I agree w/Soundguy about grease IMHO , especially in cold,,, if at first you don't succeed,, blahblahblah

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

Thanks rutty creek. I was hoping getting the retainer off wouldn't be something as picky as you describe. Doesn't sound like much fun!

Once again may I say that there is no binding because of cold or thick greese. My garage is kept between 40 and 60, 40 all the time except when I'm working, when it's around 55 to 60. In Northern Vermont working on a tractor outside in winter is no fun, and winter lasts a long time.

At the time I bought this place I was single, so I decided my garage/workshop would be built before the house. It was a wise decision! I've built two houses to live in so far over my lifetime and each time I lived in a mobile home while building. My present mobile home is very nice and has been somewhat modified to be very easy to live in. Now that I'm with the love of my life we're in the planning stages for the house, with no great rush. Do it right and do it once is a wisdom I appreciate even though this will be the third time I thought I was doing it for the last time.

 

[greg_g]

Yeah, me three. From my perspective, that's still a dirty starter. At a very minimum it needs a thorough cleaning and fresh electrical lube. And if I'm not mistaken, the armature is scored. Consider taking that starter to an auto-electric shop for a rebuild.

//greg//

 

[3RRL]

Sorry about not telling you what a PITA is was to get the brushes back on. The first time I took mine apart I didn't think of clipping them back either. Also sorry about the key shaft but I could not remember what the drive on the pinion gear was like. Nevertheless, it was something to check.
Now, you say when you replaced the solenoid it started but then later the starter whirled but did not drive the fly wheel. Same thing as with the original solenoid, is that right?
I'm thinking that for some reason the pinion gear is not meshing with the flywheel teeth. So the starter motor is spinning it but it's not engaging with the flywheel for some reason. Deduction tells me if the starter motor is spinning, so is your pinion gear. If the solenoid kicks the pinion gear out on the bench, the solenoid is working too. I wonder if you can check the lead-in on the pinion gear and also the flywheel. There might be a spot where there is no lead-in to allow free engagement? Another thing is the alignment of the starter to the housing. On mine there was a counter bore and a couple bolts holding the starter to the housing. It may also be that the starter centerline is too close to the flywheel centerline? If you can do it, see if you can bolt the starter as far away from the flywheel as that counter bore allows. If I remember correctly, there is a very slight bit of play, but might be enough?

 

[Seasoned Carpentry]

3RRL, it WAS a major PITA getting the armature back in with the brushes pushed all the way in by their springs. This time, hooking the springs back, it was much easier, but did take some delicate prying to get them over the armature.

As far as the starter alignment, there is no play on my tractor. In fact when I take the bolts out the starter doesn't move. There is a machined circular ridge on the starter motor that fits precisely into a machined enclosure on the flywheel, tight enough that it holds the starter precisely.

Perhaps a cleanup and dry lube would make a difference over the grease, but it seems with my digital handling that there is no binding I can detect. Seems to me exchanging dry lube for grease is a small increment of improvement, on an order smaller than what is needed here.

I put the starter back together and into the tractor. First try gave me the same spinning. On the fourth try it engaged and started immediately. I went out and got firewood in for the night and moved some newly cut firewood to it's stack for next season. Then back in the garage I tried starting it again. Took four tries again to get it to engage.

So I have a situation of off most of the time, and on once out of four tries. Frustrating. One more observation. When I looked at the pinion teeth carefully they revealed a full tooth engagement rather than a partial.

My guess is that the clutch is failing and gives me just enough engagement to inspire invectives. I'm trying to decide between a new starter and just the starter drive.

 

[Soundguy]

Perhaps a cleanup and dry lube would make a difference over the grease, but it seems with my digital handling that there is no binding I can detect. Seems to me exchanging dry lube for grease is a small increment of improvement, on an order smaller than what is needed here.

.

I had to laugh out loud at your reply that it was not a cold grease issue.. that your temps were 40 to 60' Here in fl we get temps in 90' plus.. and grease on a bendix will sometimes not always sling out. Course there is difference in the bendix designs.. but.. ANY drag will cause a throw out problem.

Since it costs you nothing but 4 5 minutes of cleaning and 30 cents worth of cleaner to check.. why not try it ?????

Soundguy

 

[Soundguy]

Just to give you an example of what kind of drag grease and oil will give .. think of a dry plate clutch with a leaky trans input shaft seal.. or leaky rear main seal .. that gives you an oil soaked clutch. Wanna guess what the initial symptoms of a oil coated clutch are? ( sticky release ).. not slipping as might be thought.

Soundguy

 

[SPIKER]

Seeing the bendix, fork & pinion gear I would clean all the excess grease off like suggested grease on them & the slides can cause issues! we had a JD starter off an old hoe/loader in the shop last fall for same symptoms, after 2 rebuilds it turned out to be grease in the slide part that would STICK the gear in-place even with new solenoid he had assembled starter on and coated everything with a good coating, it would work 2~3 times then start sticking & gettin worse untill no workie

Fix was 2 min with a spray can of brake cleaner...

MarkM

 

[rutty creek]

O K ,,Now you got us going,,,CAN the "Q" be answered?? How will this chinese starter problem get fixed?? Just to answer the question, I would have to buy the drive gear,,(got nothin to do with being cheap, honest)

Drives me nuts to get such short service life from things that should last much longer. I bought a marine starter for my boat last summer,gear reduction, GMC, $99.00 new. and 9# lighter