Solder question (on household copper pipe)

[Richard]

Simple question first, details after: How many times can you solder, reheat it to take apart, put back and take apart before you have any copper issues (if any?)

Scenario:

Imagine you're framing in a bathroom shower. Hire a plumber and he plumbs everything (BUT swaps the hot/cold sides such that the hot is also supplying the toilet... )

He installs pipes for the shower head, handles and a remote hand held. He puts some 1x6's between the studs to support the copper pipes as they move from one vertical stud to another. On the hand held, instead of putting a female fitting with ears (not sure what it's called) that you can screw a nipple into.... he sweats a copper pipe extension and on that he sweats a male nipple. "ok" on the surface..... until the tile guy comes and doesn't catch it.... turns out by the time the backer board and tile are installed, the tile guy calls me in to let me know that there's an issue.... the threads to mount the base for the hand held are now FLUSH with his tile.

(why the moron didn't see this sooner in his process is beyond me.....but then I admit that I also didn't notice/catch the mounting that the plumber installed)

Well....this might not be a huge issue.... as it turns out I can cut a 12x12 piece of drywall out on the other side and get "some" access to these parts. (I have a knee wall in the way and a toilet in the way so I'm leaning over near 45 degree angle to investigate this BUT it's too late to fix it correctly on the tile side....

So now I'm leaning over & reaching out....working through a 12x12...oh, I've got studs on the left, stud on the right and then I have that confounded 1x6 blocking things. The copper pipe comes up from floor and pulls a 90 to go to the OTHER side of the stud (which is mostly covered by drywall but I can stretch my fingers in there to manipulate things.

Point being, this is like doing surgery on the wall from the BACK side with visual and physical obstructions in the way.

I finally got the original pipe out of the wall and replaced it with the correct parts however, something isn't aligned perfectly.... when you screw the base onto the nipple it goes on at an angle so part of it is going to dig into the tile and the other part has maybe 1/4" gap.

So I need to take it apart.

Yesterday, I (using MAP gas) heated it with wife in shower hoping she could wiggle it a bit to change angle. Didn't work. I now think (but haven't looked as it was hot) anyway, I now think the parts are not fully soldered together.... which is fine. I need to take it apart and try again. I MIGHT slightly enlarge the hole via tile so I can insert a screwdriver to screw the ears to the stud (something he also didn't do) under the hope that it will hold it straight.....but then....I don't know that the relation of the stud to the tile is parallel.....

I've used an auto mechanic mirror (about 2x3 inches) for some of this so I told the wife I now know how a dentist feels when looking at their mirror....it's all backwards!

This is like doing surgery through a belly button, using a mirror so it's all backwards AND you have wood obstructions in the way.

Sigh.

I ultimately am wondering how many times can the copper pipe be heated/reheated before I might have any issues with it? Normally I'm once & done when I'm soldering and if not, I get it the second time when I adjust it.

I fear this is going to be a bigger project than "simply" soldering the parts back in.

 

[KennyG]

Sounds like a horrible situation. I've had some similar issues but none quite like yours. The only good news is that I don't think you have to worry about the copper. The heat to solder it isn't high enough to damage the metal. I've heated copper multiple times with no noticeable effect.

 

[Roadworthy]

You should be able to disassemble and resolder your pipes several times. Beware that too much heat can burn the flux making it useless. I've not used MAPP gas for soldering plumbing. I find propane quite adequate.

 

[Streetcar]

You can resolder copper multiple times. I have heated pipe to red hot to make flexible with no I'll effect

 

[ponytug]

Sorry to hear about the mess. If it is any consolation, been there, done that.

You can solder multiple times with no issues. If you get the copper too hot, you can melt it with MAP gas, but you have to really try, and you will know it when you do it. If things get too out of hand, you can always switch to copper tubing or PEX for the last few feet/inches. I wouldn't let perfect be the enemy of good enough.

All the best, Peter

 

[jaxs]

The copper isn't going to suffer from Map re-heats. The worst case would be that hard copper is annealed and become flexiable like copper tube.
Considering your appearant level of skill,I have to wonder why you paid that inbred plumber rather than doing it yourself the first time.

 

[Richard]

I was working in Florida at the time she had this done (house is in TN and I was in Florida for almost three years)

Update: I've cut away most of the wood. Notched the 2x4 that the pipe goes through. Looks like, how to describe this, looks like the hole in the 2x4 wasn't at an optimal spot so when you turned 90 degrees, it caused the fitting to hit the wood (INSIDE the hole) forcing it at an odd angle, giving me my issues)

I took my oscillating saw and notched it so I can simply slide the copper in/out via the slot verses the hole....discovered this issue so chipped away on the back side of the "hole" allowing the fittings to turn the corner a bit more tight.

I can't get the union off easily so I'm going to cut it.

Dawned on me....I can get my 90 to turn the corner and maybe use a pair of street 45's to wiggle the angle a bit and give me more broad coverage.

I think this is going to work.

Oh, and as I was de-soldering (de-sweating? un-sweating?)

As I was de-soldering, I took the emory cloth to the fitting I took off (male end) and while sanding on it to smooth down the tinning that the solder left, it dawned on me that copper is one of the elements.... and would probably solder again.

Yes, it was then that I slipped and turned the fitting in my fingertips....and burned my thumb and finger.

Heading into town in few minutes to get the parts I need & maybe go to dinner with the wife. I'll try to take a picture of what I'm doing after we get back or, maybe in the morning.

 

[Richard]

Where I cut the wood and now have "nothing" behind the ears to screw them to.... I'm going to mount a short piece of 2x4 to screw the fitting to and then I'll screw another 1x6 behind it making it flush with the studs and then I'll have something supporting the drywall (not really an issue for this small area.... but it will actually support the fitting with the ears)

 

[Richard]

Waiting on wife so grabbed a couple pictures.

Hole in shower where it goes
Toilet area that I'm working behind
Temporary parts to size things and see if the idea is going to work
Wood removed to see the cuts












My goal is to fit things and mount the ears to the wood...."finalize" those fittings and install the base for the hand held. Meanwhile, I'll have the copper parts fitted together, prepped, fluxed BUT not yet soldered.... so I can wiggle things and once everything seems to fit (and I already have the pipe correctly placed and the base mounted) I'll solder all the fittings.

At least that's my current game plan.

 

[KennyG]

Looks like you've got a good plan. It's amazing how supposedly qualified people can mess things up.

My story: I had a property I rehabbed in Chicago and, of course had to use a very expensive union plumber. I bought the Kohler fittings, etc and had them installed. After a few years the tub spout diverter failed and, when I got a replacement, noticed the original was different and actually didn't match the other fittings. Turns out, when the plumber roughed in the piping he left the tub supply short. Because the slip on spout wouldn't work, he found an oddball one that would slip on a short pipe. I couldn't extend the pipe with a union because the spout wouldn't fit over it. So I had to fabricate an internal union by building up solder on a pipe so it would fit inside. It took several tries but finally worked out.