Solar Power Shed Project

[patrick_g]

Egon, Yes... They are all made of ticky tacky and are all the same. There ware blue ones there are green ones...

Pat

 

[3RRL]

Yep, even if I never get my investment return it's still there for us and we did what we wanted. In fact, none of this is for an "investment return". It's for our retirement payback for all the hard years I slaved. I'll try to enjoy (finally) what years we have left. If I save a few bucks along the way, which is always good, well then that's great. Can't take it with you anyway and I'm sure not gonna leave it all for the kids....maybe the grandkids though.

Thanks for the good wishes guys.

 

[Buckeye_Jim]

Someone said "if I'd known that grandkids were going to be so much fun, I'd been nicer to their parents".

 

[EddieWalker]

Rob,

I just recomended a friend read this thread from another site, but was wondering how it's working for you? Did you have enough power during the short, overcast days of winter? Did you have to run the generator? Any updates?

Thanks,
Eddie

 

[3RRL]

Hi Eddie,
Thanks for the referral to your friend, I hope he finds it useful. The system is up and working but we have not taxed the system under full load. The contractor is going to start some time in May this year and he will be using it for all on site power. At this time the system powers the well pump 27/7 and miscellaneous re-chargeable items/battery chargers we use at camp. There are also several motion detector lights around the perimeter of the shed that come on as well as lighting inside the solar shed. The solar panels wake up every morning when the sun hits them and they start tracking until dark. Then they fold up back into their "sleep" position for the night. Right now, the generator only comes on once a week for it's weekly exercise period only.
Thanks for asking.

 

[sandman2234]

Considering the battery investment and warranty, I was just wondering if you should have held off on buying all of your batteries at the beginning.I think buying half of them would have been plenty. Reduced capacity until the house and shop were built, but easily made up with the generator, if needed.. Plus it would give you a break of almost two years between having to replace half of them, if you split the original purchase time by two years (during house building) Having them sitting there just for the contractor's minimal use seems like a big waste, dispite saving $10K on his costs.
Course I do realize that hindsight is 20-20...
David from jax

 

[3RRL]

David, indeed hindsight is 20-20.
One factor is that the original General contractor was fired and the original house plans were scrapped. So that in itself represented quite a time delay. I'm stuck with what I did now, but on the flip side, the new Log home project is moving right along. Not only that, but since the last post we have added a few plug ins such as a small refrigerator to make life more comfortable at camp. Also all our re-chargeables don't need to be hauled home anymore.
lol...I guess I'm making excuses now.

 

[tommu56]

sandman2234
Its far better to have all the batteries the same age different age cells don't charge the same rate.
If Rob added 1/2 of them later they would be over charged or the old ones would be under charged and limiting the whole bank (weekest link is the weekest battery)

The only other way he could have done it was to just put some in now for construction.
Then buy some new ones when construction is done and send me the old ones for my cabin. LOL

tom

 

[sandman2234]

Tom,
That would have been ok with me, but getting him to pay the freight on the old batteries might have been a chore. Granted your trying to protect him from having a mismatched set of batteries, but shipping hazmat batteries would cost a fortune!
David from jax

 

[angelsmile]

Since we are experiencing economy crisis right now, we ought to find ways on how to lessen our daily expenses. We all prioritize expenses at home and it's really amazing to have this solar energy for our homes. It is great to save money from our electricity bills. Saving is really important nowadays, we have to earn more in order to live graciously.

 

[patrick_g]

Since we are experiencing economy crisis right now, we ought to find ways on how to lessen our daily expenses. We all prioritize expenses at home and it's really amazing to have this solar energy for our homes. It is great to save money from our electricity bills. Saving is really important nowadays, we have to earn more in order to live graciously.

So far I have never read a documented case of solar electric being an economic alternative to the grid when the grid is available. It just doesn't pay. Not now, and probably not for a while, especially in residential applications. Now if you are miles off the grid or otherwise restricted then solar coiuld be cheaper than miles of wires and poles. In my case I got a long term lease on recreational property in Baja that is solar only and will never have the grid. Basically it is solar or no electricity. This is NOT the usual situatioin for a residential installation.

Residential installations can make you feel good, feel green, or whatever but NOT pay for themselves.

Pat

 

[tommu56]

Since we are experiencing economy crisis right now, we ought to find ways on how to lessen our daily expenses. We all prioritize expenses at home and it's really amazing to have this solar energy for our homes. It is great to save money from our electricity bills. Saving is really important nowadays, we have to earn more in order to live graciously.

I think the above it is spam just my opinion!

I have a cabin off grid and like Rob's home you cant get electric there at an reasonable price.

Yes the cost per watt is higher but if you have to bear the insulation of the grid to you that is more expensive in some instances.

I called the electric co to see what it would involve to get it to my place n the mountains they said they cant go through the state Forrest any more.

The best route would be up a private valley about 11 miles to my place.

They did offer to put it in and I could pay it off over 10 years plus the electric usage I just said no thanks and we used gas light gas frig gas stove and wood heat and a generator when needed.
I dreamed of solar for 20 years then just bit the bullet and put a small system in and it dose us fine

tom

 

[mgtd]

Very nice, well thought out plan. Don't mean to hijack your thread.

If money weren't a consideration, I'd probably go more along that route too. I didn't have the problem of enormous costs to grid connect, just want to do my little portion of the "green thing".

Being a DIY person, over the past year, I've converted about half my home/shop to run on Renewable Energy as a way to decrease monthly electrical expenses. Here in NE Missouri we saw a 6% increase in electric rates in 2008 and they have proposed almost an 8% increase to take effect this year.

For about $10,000.00, I"ve installed a system that includes 1700 watts of solar, a 1000 w wind turbine on a 103 foot tower, about 1400 amp hours of battery capacity and I also utilize Outback Power Systems Inverter/Chargers and Charge Controllers as 3RRL does. I'm still on grid for charging batteries on sunless/windless days-or when my demand exceeds nature's provision-I don't have a generator in my system. A fair portion of my system components are used, but doing satisfactorily.

It is nice to see the electric bill at about 2/3' of what it used to be, and I get a lot of satisfaction in doing a little part of going green.

 

[3RRL]

I haven't posted on this thread for quite a while.
Not for over a year and a half now. But I have made some posts on the Log Home thread about the solar. I'm happy to report we have made many adjustments. The Log Home is complete and the shop is complete too. Everything runs off our solar ... everything. Our back up generator helps out when there is no Sun, but other than that, it's all off the solar.

Our adjustments were to make sure we unplug (via electric strips) all unnecessary equipment. We turn the computers off except when using them. Same with the TV and radio etc. We even unplug our electric shavers and tooth brushes lol. We also changed every single light to either CFL and many to LED. The saving in energy consumption was astronomical. Typically, we've cut down from about 28 to 30 kW use daily down to between 8 and 13 kW a day.

It depends how much washing and drying we do. The rest is pretty typical for us to use about 10kW a day on average. The adjustments were inconvenience at first, but after 9 months now, it's no big deal. Our biggest power users are the electric drier so we run that when the generator kicks on. I need to run the generator when I run my big lathe which is rarely. The Direct TV uses a lot of energy too, so it's unplugged all the time except when we watch tv. We even have 8 sets of accent light around the home and barn. They are dusk to dawn lights with 2 bulbs in each fixture. We put 1.5w LED's in them so all together they draw 24w total for about 10 hours, or .24kW for the night.
The solar is holding up nicely with very little trouble once we got it tuned in and the batteries balanced out. That took many charges with the generator to get them into float, but it's all working great right now.
Peter has helped us a lot with tips along the way.
Rob-

 

[patrick_g]

Rob, You and Tom are like poster children for solar, definitely atypical. Solar was absolutely reasonable for your installation and Tom's is in the envelope too. I'm not anti-solar or I would not have entered into a long term lease of recreational property where the contract has you agree to solar only, forever. We have even signed away our rights to band together in the future to try to get commercial power.

These special cases where grid access is just way too expensive or contractually prohibited make solar systems "work" money wise.

There are many cases where you might think you are being green or feeling good about your "charitable" contribution to saving the planet that are truly illusory. Proper motivation but lack of understanding. If you consider the energy intensity of making the solar panels and such you will find your carbon and other undesirable footprints are larger and deeper than you may like to admit.

I am a long term subscriber to "Home Power" magazine and strongly recommend it to anyone interested in alternative energy for residential use (hydro, wind, solar, etc.) The projects depicted in the magazine are real world not hypothetical. They give materials lists along with sources for the materials as well as system diagrams complete enough to replicate one of the systems should you desire it.

Never in the entire run of my multi-year subscription has there ever been a solar electric project driven by economics when the grid was economically available. Lots of folks felt green, or felt they did their part to "save the planet" but didn't really except in their mind. There were both wind and hydro projects that had a payback in less time than the expected life time of the installation but NONE of the solar electric projects actually paid for themselves.

If altruism was the intent then going on the grid and using energy conservation measures like the solar folks use you would be $ ahead and you could contribute those $ to a worthwhile cause to actually benefit the environment, wildlife, feed the children or whatever.

Again, I have no beef with folks off grid putting in a solar installation, I did it. Even my motor home was a solar farm and I removed the generator. I have a large slide in pickup camper now with oodles of pv panels on the roof. I get 12-14 amps at about 12.6 to13.8 volts, enough to run satellite TV, the evaporative air conditioner and keep the batteries fully charged (320 AH) There are definitely situations where solar electric makes sense and cases where its use is delusional.

One of the most often heard comments of someone with "net metering" and a solar electric installation with grid inter tie is the euphoria that overcomes them when the electric meter spins backwards. Of course it will never spin backwards enough to ever pay for the installation but it will (especially if you turn everything in the house off) actually spin backwards and share your "free" energy with the rest of the grid users. Net metering allows you to cut your electric bill to zero IF AND ONLY IF you generate all your electricity for the month. Any excess goes to the grid for free and any sort fall gets you a bill. You will never get paid for any excess generation but all the power you generate offsets your costs until your bill is zero then it is free to the grid.

Net metering is about the best deal you can get with a utility. For quite a while the utilities would sell you electricity at retail rates and buy yours at wholesale rates. One of the things often publicized in "Home Power" was "gorilla" installations where solar electric systems would be "bootlegged" to give the general effect of net metering when the utility was into retail/wholesale. The installers wore ski masks in the pictures to protect their ID. Needless to say the editor in chief of the magazine was super left wing liberal activist oriented and approved of this protest type anarchist activity. These projects were documented and were done to code and did not constitute a hazard to linemen in event of a grid failure but were technically illegal and prosecutable.

Solar may still become cost competitive when/if electrical generation costs ratchet upward sufficiently. Of course cold fusion might be made commercially viable first.

Pat

 

[wwalkersd]

"Never" is too strong a word, Pat. Costs have come down recently, and rebates and tax credits are up. I just put solar on my house, with net metering. It'll pay for itself in about 20 years. That's a long time, but it's not never.

Also, I haven't switched yet, but my utility has recently introducted "time of use" metering for net metering customers. Basically, the excess electricity I produce during the day is credited to me at peak rates, and the electricity I use in the evening is charged at off-peak rates, so I should come out ahead. Especially if I get an electric car in a few years.

 

[woodlandfarms]

I have been following a number of different articles on maybe that Electricity is not cost benefical to generate on a residential level (cost of solar cells, wind generators). But that using Solar to heat / cool both water and rooms is now very cost effective (in the term of a 20 year period).

 

[patrick_g]

"Never" is too strong a word, Pat. Costs have come down recently, and rebates and tax credits are up. I just put solar on my house, with net metering. It'll pay for itself in about 20 years. That's a long time, but it's not never.

Also, I haven't switched yet, but my utility has recently introducted "time of use" metering for net metering customers. Basically, the excess electricity I produce during the day is credited to me at peak rates, and the electricity I use in the evening is charged at off-peak rates, so I should come out ahead. Especially if I get an electric car in a few years.

I used NEVER correctly and it was not too strong of a word!

I NEVER saw in all the years of my subscription, a residential (or other) solar electric installation published in "Home Power" where the economics were such that it was cheaper for the user to use the solar than to just use the grid. If there was one SOMEWHERE the editors would have moved heaven and earth to be able to publish it...what a terrific poster child! But it N-E-V-E-R happened.

I am a proponent of alternative energy, definitely in favor of responsible stewardship of resources and do strongly favor renewable resources but I am also trained as a scientist and engineer and don't like to operate on wishful thinking. I'm sorry if my "but the emperor is wearing no clothes" comments are unsettling for you.

If you are happy with your situation then I am happy for you.

Yes prices have come down, a little, and incremental performance increases have been made but if you do a complete analysis including all source costs, energy used to produce the cells, the carbon footprint of all operations required to manufacture your components, i.e. a thorough analysis not a biased surface analysis you may be surprised to see your break even time recede back over the time horizon a significant distance.

Even the inclusion of such simple concepts as NPV (Net Present Value) calculations can have a very noticeable impact on break even times. When I was "selling" energy conservation to the Commanding Officer of SUBASE San Diego I had to present thorough analyses of the economics, including NPV. I won't try to teach a short course in investment economics in this post but for those who don't have experience with NPV, here it is the "Reader's Digest" condensed version.

If you do not make the investment you retain the money and gain compound interest on it over the useful life of the rejected project. So, if instead you invest the $ in THE PROJECT you lose that. There is a cost of money. There is an opportunity cost. For the energy conservation project (or any project that is supposed to save $)there are these extra costs which are quite real. So there is an additional cost to the project, that of tieing up the capitol in it as opposed to investing it in some other competing project or...

To be fair when totaling up the cost of a system you not only have to include the cost of parts and labor to install but the maint costs over the expected lifetime and the cost of deinstallilng the system when it is obsolete or the cost of replacement, perhaps folded into maint costs. Systems do not last forever. All this equipment has a finite MTBF (Mean Time Before Failure)

You can always tell the pioneers, they are the ones with the most arrows in their backsides. You may be serving the greater good. What is good for the individual is not what is always best for the group and the other way around. By increasing the volume of PV manufacture and the $ invested in PV you help stimulate the PV industry and allow it to continue to improve its wares and costs. If we all waited for it to be economical before buying in it would take longer for it to become economical, if ever.

I'm glad to hear your utility is "modern" enough to give you a multiple rate structure and net metering. Truly modern utilities will allow you to install breakers on some of your appliances (water heaters and such) that allow the utility to remotely control them, switching them off in "load shedding" situations when peak demands exceed generation capacity like summer afternoons. By running dishwashers and your home laundry on delayed start you can shift those energy pigs to the lower rates too.

Please understand I have no quarrel with you or your installation. You have not done a giant wrong against man and nature. You may have not done an accurate and precise analysis regarding payback but like the folks doing the systems reported in "Home Power" they did it because they wanted to not because it was economical. One fellow in particular really just loved it when he could actually see his electric meter spin backwards even though his bill could not go negative and he was giving the energy to the utility for free to sell to his neighbors.

One final thought... REBATES AND TAX CREDITS are an artificial means of directing your investing, giving you an incentive to do something that would otherwise not be economically feasible. We like to think that the incentives are altruistically motivated and in aggregate serve the citizens best interests. Sometimes they are. On the other hand it is yet another dose of socialism where $ is taken from one segment of our society and doled out to another who will do the bidding of those doing the doling.

Pat

 

[MidwestEngineer]

I stumbled on you thread and wanted to get your input on our Powershed project. We just installed one of these (see brochure). We don't have batteries yet. The extra power we don't use we sell back to the utility company. It sure is a great feeling when you see the meter spinning backwards! Which batteries would you recommend now that you've been using them for a while?

 

[602466]

Midwest:

If you don't mind, what did that thing cost? I am looking for something just like that. Can it power your whole house?

Thanks,

Wally