Solar Interest and Selling Power Back

[MossRoad]

Applies to us as well. ROI is way too long for this old man. At least in our situation, the utility gives us a large break in electric cost for our HWH and if we had a heat pump (we don't), that too. We have 2 separate smart meters, one for the house and one for the HWH. Bottom line with any of it is, it's going to cost you more and more for electricity as well as NG (and propane), nothing you can do about it except turn the t'stat down in the winter or up in the summer or go to alternative fuels like we did for heat. I heat my shop as well as the house with bio mass. The house still requires the heat plant on very cold days but the biomass stove handles it quite well most other times and the one in the shop is always able to maintain the temperature in there.. I have an overhead, high efficiency propane heater but I rarely use it.

I'm in kind of a unique situation as my biomass fuel (seed corn) I get for free so my fuel costs are negligible. I do mix in processed wood pellets with the seed corn at a ratio of 1 of pellets to 3 of corn and there is the issues of loading the units, cleaning them weekly and dumping the ashes but it's still way cheaper than relying on the utility (electric or in our case propane) for heat. Propane is steadily climbing presently. and so is electricity and I think everyone knows why.

Because I'm inherently cheap, I've been heating with biomass for at least 30 years now.

Even considered putting in a stoker coal stove in the house but rice coal around here is hard to obtain where as corn and processed wood pellets aren't and processed wood pellets are supposedly carbon neutral whatever that means.

Problem 10-15 years ago I was looking at BTUs, and how they are wasted when converting something from one for to another VS just using it to its best BTU potential in its original form.

I found a study that said as a nation, we’d be better off running our cars on natural gas (no conversion and very efficient), burning corn to heat our homes(no conversion and very efficient), running trucks and trains on diesel(less conversion than gasoline and more efficient), and large ships on oil(very little conversion).

All of those methods and uses would save huge amounts of BTUs from being lost in conversion.

 

[workinonit]

So my coop rep just called me back. They do have net metering at a 1:1 ratio. Some hoops to jump through first but they allow your installation to be no larger than your highest peak monthly load so in my case 11.6 kW. I will be looking at 12 kW systems. My base charge is $23/mo and they have a $5/Kw/mo charge for solar. So thats $83 out of the gate for a 12 kW system. They get you going and coming.

 

[MossRoad]

So my coop rep just called me back. They do have net metering at a 1:1 ratio. Some hoops to jump through first but they allow your installation to be no larger than your highest peak monthly load so in my case 11.6 kW. I will be looking at 12 kW systems. My base charge is $23/mo and they have a $5/Kw/mo charge for solar. So thats $83 out of the gate for a 12 kW system. They get you going and coming.

Put it all on a spreadsheet and see what your estimated return on investment will be.

7-10 years, if the system is guaranteed to last 20 might not be bad.

 

[Wood_Butcher_Dav]

I was told when is the best time to put in Solar? It's just like planting a tree 5 years ago

Check for any state grants that might also be available.
I got a 9.2KW grid tied system installed in late 2019.
Total cost $27000
Federal tax relief $8000
IL Shines Grant $11000
My costs $8000
I pay around $.13 and get back around $.03. The the monthly savings average for the year in my electric bill is $200.

I had a local electrician do the install and the grant paper work for the turn key install. Very pleased so far.

Dave

 

[Beeenvenue]

Tldr; cost justification and analysis is a mess and getting much messier much faster and the days of net zero are coming to a rapid close so do your best to understand what the payback WILL BE based on regulations in 2025, not today. This is going to be an up and down issue for a long time to come.

Net metering sounds great - and it is - for the first 5-10% of electricity being offset. After that it becomes a negative for the NON-SOLAR users. It is very similar to what is about to happen to electric vehicles.

Your bill (typically) has 2 parts: an energy part based on cost to generate what you use, and a “poles and wires” charge that funds the infrastructure to get it to your house. If you are the only person with solar then net metering makes sense; As you generate more than you consume the meter runs backwards and you move toward a zero bill (or even get a credit if you generate more in a month than you consume, but that is also state and locality dependent and has its own issues). Since your entire bill is based on the “net usage” you pay zero or a reduced cost for energy. You also pay zero or a reduced amount for the poles and wires portion. That isn’t fair or equitable to the non solar users who then will have to pay a disproportionate share of YOUR avoided poles and wires costs even though you use those systems the same as you always did.

Now what happens if we all do that? Your local utility will have zero funding for poles and wires, or at least only a fraction of what they were getting and what they need - because at night you need 100% of the infrastructure but are paying for 0 or a reduced amount. The system economics will collapse.

It is analogous to gas tax funding roads and electric cars; a few EVs won’t be noticed but 10% will be noticed and 25% will be a huge problem, as the demands on the road are the same as before but the $ to maintain them isn’t there. We are already seeing that in some states as more efficient gas cars have dropped the gas tax revenue

I haven’t even touched on who and how we pay for baseload plants for cloudy/night/calm days when we all want 100% electricity availability but have “broken” the existing financial system to pay for the huge investment required.

This all varies state to state and in regulated vs deregulated markets, co/ops, municipal utilities, etc.

 

[5030]

burning corn to heat our homes(no conversion and very efficient)

Been doing that for at least the last 20 years Mossy. Best part for me is, it's free. All I have to do is drive my tractor with the pallet forks on it down the road about a mile and pick it up. It either comes bagged on skids or in Super Sacks. I always return the skids and super sacks but I roast the paper bags if it comes in them. Both my bio mass stoves are around 87% efficient too.

More work than setting the thermostat but a lot less expensive.

 

[workinonit]

That isn’t fair or equitable to the non solar users who then will have to pay a disproportionate share of YOUR avoided poles and wires costs even though you use those systems the same as you always did.

My coop is charging a $5/kW of solar power to offset this discrepency. I am limited to 12 kW so that's $60/mo added to the equation. Probably enough to make it a deal breaker.

 

[Oaktree]

I’d be better off spending less money than a solar system and super-insulating my house, replacing the windows and installing new, efficient HVAC.

That’s my situation currently. May not apply to others.

Yeah, same here. We're right behind a mountain, so we get very little sun from Nov-Mar when the sun is low in the sky so solar would have a really long payback. House is about as well insulated as it can be...it's plank construction so the walls are solid wood 4" thick. We re-did all the windows, plugged as many places drafts can get in as possible, and have a 3 season porch as an entry way. I'm in northern N.H. so A/C isn't anything we need.

I'm in kind of a unique situation as my biomass fuel (seed corn) I get for free so my fuel costs are negligible. I do mix in processed wood pellets with the seed corn at a ratio of 1 of pellets to 3 of corn and there is the issues of loading the units, cleaning them weekly and dumping the ashes but it's still way cheaper than relying on the utility (electric or in our case propane) for heat. Propane is steadily climbing presently. and so is electricity and I think everyone knows why.

Because I'm inherently cheap, I've been heating with biomass for at least 30 years now.

Even considered putting in a stoker coal stove in the house but rice coal around here is hard to obtain where as corn and processed wood pellets aren't and processed wood pellets are supposedly carbon neutral whatever that means.

Before joining TBN I'd never heard of using corn for fuel. Is it common in the midwest? I'd imagine rodents getting into your supply can be quite a problem!
I've been heating with firewood as long as I've been a homeowner (going on 50 years). I buy it now, but for many years I cut my own. Nice thing, it works when the power goes out, downside is that it's messy (and a fair amount of work, which I still enjoy).

I know the powers that be seem to be pushing us towards heat pumps...I suppose they make sense in states where it doesn't get too cold (and where you'd want A/C), but this far north not so much.

 

[LD1]

In general....coop's arent too friendly towards solar. And only pubic/for profit companies have been.....because the govt has a little more control over them and forcing the net metering crap down their throats. Basically....read the articals above....like in indiana.....they are pushing back.

Because in its current form....Net-metering and consumer grid-tied solar is NOT sustainable.

But read all the fine print from your coop. The companies that are offering true 1:1 net metering, allowing credits, and buying back surplus solar at retail rate.....(like roric's bill).....kudos to him....but its screwing all the non-solar customers and its not sustainable.

I have looked into solar. Take my own rural Coop for example. My bill is broken down loosely as follows:
Meter charge $50
G&T..............3¢ per kwh
Distribution....8¢ per kwh

So I am paying 11¢ per kwh for usage and $50 for the pleasure of being grid tied.

Coops dont "make" electricity. The purchase electricity from suppliers and deliver it to the more rural areas where the big players didnt see it as a wise investment.

So my Coop buys electricity for 3¢.......marks it up by 8¢ to get it to me on their poles and lines.

To do 1:1 net metering....that would mean buying/crediting electricity @ 11¢. In the interest of the rest of the consumers......why would my provider of electric willingly buy electric for 11¢ when their current suppliers are only charging them 3¢??

SO......what MY coop does for solar customers is simple.....you basically have TWO meters. If your solar is kicking @$$....their meter isnt spinning and your not buying "their" electric at 11¢. You are using yours. IF you are making surplus and sending back to grid.....the solar meter is spinning and you are selling back...but not at 11¢.....they will only pay you the same as their suppliers....3¢.....which actually makes sense in a business world.

The problem is......for most households....during peak solar production is actually the least demand on the house. Less lights, people at work or school, etc. And in the evening.....when solar production is minimal....thats when people are home taking showers, cooking, lights on, watching TV, etc.

So lets say you use 1000kwh/mo......and you have a solar system that makes 1000/mo. But you only used 200kwh of your power, and sold 800kwh back to the coop....which means you used 800kwh of theirs as a result. You owe them $88 for the 800kwh you pulled from the grid when your solar panels weren't keeping up......and they only owe you $24 for the 800kwh you made but didnt use immediately. So you will have a bill for $64 for usage, PLUS a $60 meter charge. (Forgot to mention, that the meter charge is $60 for solar and $50 for non-solar.)

So at 1000kwh usage.....with no solar......11¢ x 1000 = $110 + $50 = $160 bill for no solar
With solar sized to produce all the 1000kwh you use....you still have a $124 bill.
Sorry, I aint spending $20k or $30k for a system sized to produce ALL the power I need, only to save $36/mo. And I 100% understand why the coop is this way for reasons above. They arent gonna have 99% of the members subsidize the 1% that want solar. Thats the cost of using the grid as your battery. And my coop also does NOT pay out for surplus solar. The best you can do is offset the usage charge on the bill......but you will NEVER get below $60/mo for meter charge. Even if you produce 10,000kwh and only use 500kwh.....you STILL have a $60 bill.

The ONLY way on my coop to have a $0 bill is to go off-grid and deal with batterys.

Roric is a unique example of an electric company uses the non-solar companies to subsidize his solar. No offense intended....and kudos to him for making the smart play and taking advantage of it. And if my coop had net-metering practices like his power company I would do the same thing in a heartbeat.

But bottom line everytime these solar discussions come up.....the FIRST thing you need to do is get FULL understanding of how YOUR power company handles solar.....because they are ALL different

 

[workinonit]

Yep, they are all different for sure. With 12 kW solar system I would have to sell back enough excess to offset the $23/mo meter charge + $60/mo so;ar charge to end up net zero. The $60 is to penalize the solar customer for the customers that aren't solar. That being said, I have no idea how to calculate my excess power per month to even know if I can end up net zero. I think that is realistically doable. The wrench in the whole thing is that they can change the rules we play by at any time. It's definately a risk but is it a risk worth taking?