Solar energy proposal, what do ya think?

[WM75Guy]

It appears to be a win-win situation for both. You have looked at the upside and the downside. I think the upside out ways the downside so I would do it. I am not an environmental fanatic but we need to move towards renewable resources.

 

[Woody65]

It appears to be a win-win situation for both. You have looked at the upside and the downside. I think the upside out ways the downside so I would do it. I am not an environmental fanatic but we need to move towards renewable resources.

Me too. I am not a environmentalist. Or a proponent of solar. As a matter of fact, I had no intentions of using solar on my home here on Long Island. It is a possibility on a home I hope to build in the next 5 yrs in the country.

 

[dmccarty]

Do you still get the lower rate for power if the PV panels are NOT providing power? If you have a few days of heavy overcast does that affect the billing?

Later,
Dan

 

[Woody65]

Do you still get the lower rate for power if the PV panels are NOT providing power? If you have a few days of heavy overcast does that affect the billing?

Later,
Dan

This offer is only being given to homes that they have already analyzed and have the potential to produce and utilize the power generated. All power goes through a reverse meter. If I produce more than I need it gets banked for future use on off peak months. If I use more than I produce, I purchase what I need from my current supplier.

 

[Redneck in training]

The contract must be good for the installer. Otherwise they wouldn't do it. If you can install it by yourself or at least do the mechanical part you can save significant amount of money. Then you also get the federal and state tax rebate.
Ask your utility about connection agreement and when you have it all signed and in hand buy the hardware and install it. If your state utility doesn't allow DIY project find an installer that will let you do at least some work DIY or get the certification for yourself. There are certification programs in every state. It is not that difficult to get certified. If you do it DIY I would recommend microinverters because you don't need to deal with dangerous voltages and currents during installation. If you can wire up a breaker in breaker panel you can install PV. You can install 1W of capacity for about $2 (before rebates and grants) at current price for the hardware. If you get net metering with "banking" your break even at $.21/kWh is pretty short. You can also finance it and fold it to your mortgage then you get additional tax break. Many states also have interest free loans for part (up to half in IA) of the investment.
Check Civic Solar CivicSolar | Solar Panels - Photovoltaic Cells - Solar Power - Inverter - Charge Controller - Battery for the current cost of the hardware.

 

[Sodo]

The contract must be good for the installer. Otherwise they wouldn't do it.

OK somebody is getting to the crux of the matter. If it's profitable for PSE&G to approach you, it might be that they are trying to get you under contract before you do it yourself.

One thing about energy, with all the money in energy **POWERFUL** organizations are trying to prevent you from gathering your own energy, it only makes business sense. Also investment firms who have "your" money or pension plans in energy (dams, wind, oil and gas) and want you to keep it there (where they can make more $ than you). They do a lot of advertising, it's all over talk-radio and other paid-news stations; to discredit solar; I think everyone has heard it over and over. But once this farce is over their next push is to get you under contract!. Solar is their biggest worry because YOU can go get energy yourself, you can't do that with dams, wind, gas etc. At this point all they can do is discredit solar by advertising, and buy politicians to get blockages written into law, remove the tax credits for solar that previous administrations started.

Why don't you call some local Solar install companies and get some bids for buying the system outright (complete install) where you own it outright. If there are any tax credits available, they will tell you because it makes their offer more compelling.

It's a very simple calculation to tell you in how many years the system pays for itself. At 21cents, that might be in five years. Maybe you can get a contract for the PSE&G to buy the excess electricity FROM you for 5 years? Anyway the locals will know. But be aware that big energy's next task will be to strip your ability to sell your power to the grid, which will happen as they try to discourage people from collecting power that falls on their own roofs.

I would wait a bit before telling them you are comparing their bid to the PSE&G proposal, let them give you an outright price, and see what that is before even letting loose a hint. And compare bids from other installers too. The number of kW (system size) that PSE&G proposed is interesting too, as PSE&G was trying to make you a producer of electricity for them, so it might be oversized.

Understood it was never your intention to get into the power business, but now that someone has proposed, you have an interesting situation. I bet if people are making money from it the solar installers are able to make a pretty penny too (which might mean "quote high"). Your KWH price ($.21) is 2.3x ours in WA ($.09) it looks like you could make some money over there, and I bet the installers make a killing. Good luck.

 

[Danno1]

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Woody,

Speaking of insurance, what happens in the event of a hurricane? Do you have a newer house with all the proper hurricane clips holding the framing together? What if the high winds catch this thing and tear your roof off?


.

 

[adventure bob]

While reading this Im concerned with some of the issues presented. First off, Silicone PV degrades efficiency by about 2% per year. They are not place once and forget for the next 40 years like a roof. They will loose efficiency and your Kw output goes down from the day they are installed. As they get dirty, it goes down even further. Second, I have yet to find a 1/2 to 3/4 replacement system for a 3 person family in a 2K sq/ft house with an ROE anywhere close to 10 years. Its more like 25 when you take into account replacement of failed cells of the payback period and maintenance. At an installed cost of $4 per watt, your payback if your getting .2/kw/hr net metered is roughly 15yrs. The only way its less than 10 is <4/watt installed (not bloody likely) and .5.kw/hr net metered. Avg cost in texas which is the lowest installed rate in the nation right now is $3/watt.
The trade your looking at here is your lower electrical bill. You have no upfornt cost, yet you get a pretty good cut in your bill. Id be more concerend with the cost increase clause. Once installed on your house you shouldnt have a bump in your non grid power cost at all. I would also be concerned with maintence responsibility and damage to the array or to your property from the array. Whose insurance are they carried on? Who pays any premium delta? You may loose any savings whatsoever if your insurane considers them a risk.

 

[Eyeshade]

What happens if vivint goes broke and can't honor their side of the contract?
Are you sure yout incremental cost per kwh is 21 cents, not average rate. Will you still have to pay Lipa a base charge and a mimimun amount fot their 20%? This might change their neew rate to 40 cents

 

[Sodo]

While reading this Im concerned with some of the issues presented. First off, Silicone PV degrades efficiency by about 2% per year. They are not place once and forget for the next 40 years like a roof. They will loose efficiency and your Kw output goes down from the day they are installed.

Bob where did you get the 2% number? Most panels are warranted to have 80% rated performance in 25 years, which is 0.7% (some for 20y = 0.9%) per year. In NY it would pay for itself in 5, and starting the 6th year, the roof is making money for you. The roof is likely to last much longer than 40 years as it's sheltered under the panels.

As they get dirty, it goes down even further.

Once my brothers panels were all noticeably dirty, he went up there and mopped, brushed them all clean and went back down to look the power increase. As far as he could tell, removing the 'dirt' increased his power by 2%, so the answer is, dusty panels still produce LOTS of power, like 98%. The real problem is shade, not dust.

Second, I have yet to find a 1/2 to 3/4 replacement system for a 3 person family in a 2K sq/ft house with an ROE anywhere close to 10 years. Its more like 25 when you take into account replacement of failed cells of the payback period and maintenance.

This sounds just like old numbers, when panels cost 5x as much as today (and these low prices are WITH US Gov't tariffs added). Also the ROE is dependent on electrical rates in the area. TX state avg is $.09.kwh and Woody is paying $.21/kwh, his panels would pay off in less than half the time of a TX system. I bet a NY system would cost a lot more simply because the NY homeowner would make so much more money. I have never heard about failed cells. I'm sure it happens but not often enough that people are talking about it. I bet they can't handle golf-ball size hail though, I'd want to make sure homeowner insurance covered damage for sure but an answer to that question is available.

The trade your looking at here is your lower electrical bill. You have no upfornt cost, yet you get a pretty good cut in your bill. Id be more concerend with the cost increase clause. Once installed on your house you shouldnt have a bump in your non grid power cost at all. I would also be concerned with maintence responsibility and damage to the array or to your property from the array. Whose insurance are they carried on? Who pays any premium delta? You may loose any savings whatsoever if your insurane considers them a risk.

These are some important questions the answers are what should drive the decision.

 

[BillG_in_TX]

Woody, I think you should do it, and this is coming from someone who has a PV installation on my roof that I purchased (with a little help from my "friends"). I would like to address a few issues that have been raised:

• This particular installation doesn't have to be profitable for the company making the offer. It sounds like they are under a mandate to install "x" amount of renewable production as part of their agreement to take over electric distribution on Long Island. We had a similar situation in Texas 4 years ago, where as part of deregulation, the electric delivery company had a mandate to offer $x in rebates for renewable energy installations. They paid for 35% of my installation, the US taxpayers paid 30% via tax credits (thank you), and we paid the remaining 35%. Even at 2009 costs, that really reduces the payback period.
• PV efficiency degradation is projected at 0.5% per year, not 2%. After 30 years, the array should only lose 13.5% of its original capacity. Our production went up 4% in year 2, then down 0.5% in year 3, then down 1.6% in year 4. Overall, our 4 year average is 1.3% above the PV Watts estimate for year 1. Obviously, weather plays a huge part in this, and we may never know what the real drop is over time, unless we live here for another 25 years (I should be so lucky).
• I did a very thorough test on the dirt issue when my panels had gotten very dirty with dust, pollen and bird droppings. I have Enphase microinverters, so I can monitor output by panel. I cleaned only half of the panels, and measured a 0.7% increase in production on those panels vs. what was expected. Based on my experiment, I think that a 1.0% loss due to dirty panels is a generous estimate.
• Insurance may or may not be a problem. Our insurer (State Farm) did not apply any increase for the installation, probably because they didn't have enough experience to know whether they should charge more. We got a new roof last year (solar install was 3 years earlier) and State Farm paid for removal and reinstallation of the panels. Some day soon they will probably realize they should upcharge for this type of installation. Insurance coverage, premiums, deductibles, etc. are some things that you should nail down before signing up.
• Hurricanes on Long Island? They don't have "super storms" up there, do they?
  

 

[adventure bob]

My mistake, I did grab an old NREL (National renewable energy lab) report. The latest one has a sample size of 4K systems and median degradation is a little less than 1%. Apparently PV cells are getting better. Avg installed cost per watt, according to Berkeley labs as of august is over $5/watt.
Payback on a system big enough to offset a 2K sq ft house utilization by half still sucks.
We were looking at wind, but commercial mills have the same problems. If you can make your own the payback is faster.

 

[Redneck in training]

I think turnkey installation cost is more like $3-3.50/W now. I got bid for 3.50 last year. Since the installation is quite simple (I used microinverters) I decided to install it DIY. All material was 2.33/W before tax rebate or 1.50/W after rebate. My system is ground based. Roof mounted is significantly (10-20% less) cheaper. Single inverter as opposed to microinverters might lower the cost another 10% but I wouldn't recommend it for DIY unless you know what you are doing. If my system was roof mounted I could have install it at about a $1.00/W.

 

[Redneck in training]

My mistake, I did grab an old NREL (National renewable energy lab) report. The latest one has a sample size of 4K systems and median degradation is a little less than 1%. Apparently PV cells are getting better. Avg installed cost per watt, according to Berkeley labs as of august is over $5/watt.
Payback on a system big enough to offset a 2K sq ft house utilization by half still sucks.
We were looking at wind, but commercial mills have the same problems. If you can make your own the payback is faster.

Speaking about wind. Small wind (residential size) is way more expensive than PV today. It requires maintenance that is 120 ft high. If load is lost it has to be stoped to prevent self destruction by overspeed. In summary it is too troublesome for residential use. The advantage is it could produce power at night. PV on the other hand, requires only minimal maintenance, can be turend off wihout a danger od self destruction etc. Obviously it can't produce power when sun is not shining.

 

[jmc]

Woody,

In my town there is a club that advocates solar power and they are up to date on technology, rebates, net metering, etc for this area. They hold seminars in the library from time to time. If you have a group like that locally, I'd bet they have already analyzed this program and would be happy to help.

It seems that if you want to calculate annual electric savings, then income taxes play a big role. For example, if you are saving $1000/year that, previously, you wrote a check for, you had to earn maybe $1400 to net that payment after all the income taxes. Of course there are no taxes on the $1000 you saved with the PV program. So I think your real savings are actually higher.

John

 

[DANOCHEESE]

Wind Like Solar is location Location location. I demoed a unit at thirty feet high it produced enoguh to power for my house. In the event of no Load, it simply dumps into a load coil. The newer models are pretty nice. So you know I live on the prairie. It is windy here everyday and night. Sunny sometimes. The Power company is moving costs to the system and not the actual power usage. So to make it work out financially, I would have to go off grid. That is an option. I have a large genny for those hot no wind days.

Tot he original psoter Add soem measurability to the contract. Metrics are great If you fell it i snot working you prove your case.

 

[Dallas_Lilly]

We just went through the process of a ppa for four facilities in my county where I work. One was for a large 24/7 jail that consumes allot of electricity.

The ppa works well for us because we would never be able to afford the large capital purchase needed to get started but if I had the funds I would look real hard at purchasing the equipment outright. I am in Arizona and solar is being installed everywhere! Some times it makes sense and sometimes it is just to be "green"

Without local utility incentives this for sure would not be possible, I am sure their incentives are funded by state an federal funds which begs the question who is really benefiting from this?? Really it is an over seas financial company. In theory I don't like this project and what it means when you dig into it stinks of rotten eggs but that's just my opinion