Skidding winch - need bigger tractor?

[LD1]

Definatally more sand is required

I understand how it works now. It is also similar to a hydraulic chutch found in many manual tranny cars.

Not many cars today have the old style clutches which require the mechanical advantage of the levers of the clutch pedal. They have instead a master cylinder hooked up to the pedal (similar to the brakes) and a slave cylinder which operates the clutck fork and throwout bearing (similar to the calipers in the break system). The advantage is the clutchs can be a lot stiffer to hold better and require a lot less pedal effort.

But the piston in an auto tranny is an excellent reference. It it is indeed like that with several clutches and steels, they can hold a tremendous amount of power and not slip. Maybe something was faulty from the factory?? I know when it comes to rebuilding trannys, there are close tolerences on clutchpack end clearence. If too much, it won't hold, if too little, they'll overheat and wear out in no time. It is typically adjusted with thicher/thinner steels and/or thicker/thinner snaprings at the end of the pack. My main background is actuall in automotive and I have no complaints about what you stated about automatic transmissions. You hit the nail on the head. So no beating comming tonight...yet

I also disagree with the the post about the shaft being rigidly coupled to the engine. I believe it does go through the main clutch as well. Otherwise, why would you need to press the clutch pedal to engage the PTO. Unless it is some sort of a push button PTO and the clutch is indeed not required. Do you need to press the pedal to engage??

 

[dstig1]

Unless it is some sort of a push button PTO and the clutch is indeed not required. Do you need to press the pedal to engage??

Nope. Just pull the PTO lever. That opens a valve that sends hydraulic pressure to the PTO clutch pack piston, engaging the clutch.

 

[EE_Bota]

Definatally more sand is required

I understand how it works now. It is also similar to a hydraulic chutch found in many manual tranny cars.

Not many cars today have the old style clutches which require the mechanical advantage of the levers of the clutch pedal. They have instead a master cylinder hooked up to the pedal (similar to the brakes) and a slave cylinder which operates the clutck fork and throwout bearing (similar to the calipers in the break system). The advantage is the clutchs can be a lot stiffer to hold better and require a lot less pedal effort.

I thought that the only advantage of a hydraulic clutch in a manual transmission car was that it was self-adjusting. I was not aware of an improvement in the mechanical advantage.

 

[EE_Bota]

No, it is nothing like a planetary gear.

I agree. I think a PTO clutch pack is similar to the clutch pack that is used to control planetary gear sets.

The PTO is a simple wet clutch pack. The clutch is actuated hydraulically by a piston, when you move the lever, which in turn moves a valve directing oil to the clutch pack piston. This connects the input side of the clutch to the output that drive the PTO shaft.

Well, that's the plan, anyway. So where did we go wrong?

Wherever the relief valve is, it is well hidden. I went out and looked over the tractor and there is nothing to adjust, and no relief valve that I could find. It looked exactly like the parts diagram...

On mine, it is a plug, a spring, and a ball. Look at 100, 110, 120, and 130. Your tractor is different, but perhaps your plug, were you to have one, would look similar.

 

[dstig1]

EE, Thanks. That's exactly the type of thing I have been looking for. Found nothing....

Need to call in the dealers now, methinks.

 

[rbargeron]

Dave, I finally got a look at a L3130 parts list. Take a look at the two "flywheel" pages. The non-HST type has independent pto and has a constantly running shaft splined into the center of the flywheel, unaffected by the main clutch. My L3600 (gear) had independent pto too and had the same constantly running shaft off the engine. But your L3130 with HST drives the pto downstream of the main clutch. Your pto actually has two clutches in series - the main dry plate clutch and the hydraulic one. I usually sign off with this: Prompt cheerful refund if info is bogus. The hydraulic clutch pack part is true but the independent pto with constant-running shaft off the flywheel is bogus for HST machines.

Based on two clutches in series, either could be slipping - but the question remains whether that's bad or not. If it's the main, that shouldn't be happening. The pto clutch can slip a long time without damage. Only you can say if it's not really loading the engine. If it gives up too soon it should be investigated.

 

[dstig1]

rbargeron, I appreciate the follow up, but looking at Manual, GST and HST diagrams, shows me minor variations on the same thing: everything goes through the main clutch. The only shaft that passes through the clutch bell housing, other than the clutch output shaft, is the front wheel drive shaft (at the very bottom). There are no other openings in there for a shaft, PTO or otherwise, that I can see that could access the flywheel. If you are right, I sure can't see it, FWIW.
:confused3:

And yes, otherwise you are seeing what I am - the main clutch and PTO clutch are in series, as far as the PTO goes.

On a lighter note, it scares me how much I have learned about the 3130 parts diagram in the past 24 hrs...

Dave

Edit: Looking it over more, I'm quite convinced that everything goes through the main clutch, for all trannys. Not that it helps fix my issue...if I even have one...

 

[rbargeron]

...... There are no other openings in there for a shaft, PTO or otherwise, that I can see that could access the flywheel.....

If our lists are the same version, page 77 shows the independent pto shaft & gear, part 100, that runs inside part 10. On page 12 part 40 is the splined coupling bolted thru the flywheel into the crank.

All academic, since it isn't used with the HST model. Take care, Dick

 

[dstig1]

If our lists are the same version, page 77 shows the independent pto shaft & gear, part 100, that runs inside part 10. On page 12 part 40 is the splined coupling bolted thru the flywheel into the crank.

All academic, since it isn't used with the HST model. Take care, Dick

Dick, Yes we appear to have the same PLs. I guess I am having to make a couple assumptions working only from the PL - mainly that the PTO shaft 100 is splined into the gear shaft 10, and doesn't go fully through it to the clutch disc. Gear shaft 10 appears to be the output shaft of the clutch assy/input of the tranny(s). I believe the gear shaft 10 fits into the spline 40 from page 12, and not 100. Otherwise how could both 100 and 10 both spline into the same spline adapter (40)? Only one can, since the one goes inside the other.

I'm not sure there is a way to tell conclusively from the PL alone. I need a shop manual!

Moot, perhaps, but interesting...Thanks!

-Dave

 

[rbargeron]

.....I guess I am having to make a couple assumptions working only from the PL ..........I need a shop manual!.....

Kubota WSMs have cross section drawings that show all this stuff. You'll find that part 10 is splined into the main clutch disk. Part 100 extends though part 10 into the flywheel coupling 40 on p12. If part 10 connected to the crank the main clutch wouldn't do anything.

I agree the parts lists don't tell the story too well - it helps if you already know the story from other sources and use the parts lists to help confirm it.

BTW, I'm on some pain killers and acting a bit off these days - my wife saw me typing away after 1am last night - I said there was a tractor guy on the other end. She said "wonder what kind of drugs he's taking". :thumbsup: As Lindsay Lohan would say - rehab is for quitters. Take care, Dick B