Sizing a Power Trac

[RocketManJeff]

Hi All,

As mentioned in the general buying comparison thread that I started a few weeks ago here, I'm shopping for a new machine to be used on about 15 acres of orange grove that I own in Florida. The primary task would be to cut the grass, but after my zero-turn mower suffered a mishap, I'm looking for something that's a little more capable and has more uses beyond just mowing. Among other brands, I see a fair amount of love here for Power Trac and plan to demo a few of the machines in Virginia.

My question before driving over is which sizes should I be looking at?

Given my budget of low to mid 30s, I'm mostly interested in the PT-1445 and PT-1460. The 96" flail mower available for the PT-1460 is particularly attractive, especially considering that I'm coming from a 104" zero-turn. I've read here though that the 1460 is more suited to lifting/loading versus cutting. I don't need a manicured lawn - I just need to keep things knocked down while staying nimble enough to cut between orange trees. Any input or suggestions will be much appreciated.

Thanks!
-Jeff

 

[SpringHollow]

Hi Jeff,

I would think for most people, the 1445 and 1460 would be overkill unless you need the lifting capacity. A 425 or 1430 would be more nimble. Having said that, I would love to have a 1460. My tractor has that HP but the slope design dramatically limits the lifting capacity.

Ken

 

[MossRoad]

First, welcome to TBN. :thumbsup:

2nd. Nothing's going to beat your zero turn for mowing. Don't get me wrong, I really like my little PT425, and it does a great job on my lawn. But a dedicated mower will do much better, faster. Most dedicated, one purpose machines will do better than a multi-function machine unless you start spending big bucks.

If I were you, I'd identify those "I'm looking for something that's a little more capable and has more uses beyond just mowing" tasks first.

I don't know beans about oranges. :laughing:

- What types of other tasks are you needing to do?
Load some trucks? Forklift pallets/boxes? Haul product and supplies in and out of the grove? Pull sprayers? Power sprayers? Just guessing based on orchard and vineyard observations from around here.
- How much head clearance do you need in an orange grove to get between rows of trees and under/near trees?
- Do you ever need to till the soil?

I'm guessing you have other machinery besides your zero turn, too, yes?

So again, I'd ask what other tasks do you want to accomplish with this machine besides just mowing?

 

[m5040]

Having one machine to maintain that does a lot of different jobs is a big asset. Some people have criticized the quality of grass cutting given by the PT finish mowers (and there may be truth to it if you are a perfectionist), well you can always buy whatever brand mower that is your favorite and add a hydraulic motor to it (see attached pic). I love the way my PT works for clearing land. Although not recommended, you can raise the deck over rocks/boulders and stumps and trim down. I also use mine in a vertical position, like the propeller on an airplane to push back tree growth around the edges of pastures where the vegetation always goes in. You can't do that with a zero turn.
I just bought a 5' flail for my PT1430 from Titan. To check the oil in the gearbox you have to remove the motor adapter at the gearbox. That revealed that it was a 1 3/8"-6 spline input shaft on the gearbox, the same as you would connect a tractor PTO shaft to. It is a converted shaft drive mower. The specs of the PT1430 are below the advertised min for the mower. I have only used it for about a hour and it works fine for brush clearing.
After all your mowing is said and done, for the price of attachments you can have a grapple for clearing debris, loader bucket for wheel barrel or moving earth, and the 38 other attachments they offer. It's a no brainer as my old boss used to say.

 

[m5040]

Just FYI, flail mowers take more HP then rotary mowers, that is why PT doesn't offer them in the smaller tractors. So keep that in mind when calculating your HP requirements.

 

[RocketManJeff]

Hi Jeff,

I would think for most people, the 1445 and 1460 would be overkill unless you need the lifting capacity. A 425 or 1430 would be more nimble. Having said that, I would love to have a 1460. My tractor has that HP but the slope design dramatically limits the lifting capacity.

Ken

Thanks Ken! I've definitely noticed that the 425 and 1430 are popular among users here. My reasoning for looking into the larger units is that my 104" zero-turn used a 37.5HP engine and was somewhat underpowered - especially when cutting the thick summer grass. I just don't want my new machine to have the same struggles, so I'd rather give up a degree of maneuverability for the added horsepower...within reason of course!

First, welcome to TBN. :thumbsup:

2nd. Nothing's going to beat your zero turn for mowing. Don't get me wrong, I really like my little PT425, and it does a great job on my lawn. But a dedicated mower will do much better, faster. Most dedicated, one purpose machines will do better than a multi-function machine unless you start spending big bucks.

If I were you, I'd identify those "I'm looking for something that's a little more capable and has more uses beyond just mowing" tasks first.

I don't know beans about oranges. :laughing:

- What types of other tasks are you needing to do?
Load some trucks? Forklift pallets/boxes? Haul product and supplies in and out of the grove? Pull sprayers? Power sprayers? Just guessing based on orchard and vineyard observations from around here.
- How much head clearance do you need in an orange grove to get between rows of trees and under/near trees?
- Do you ever need to till the soil?

I'm guessing you have other machinery besides your zero turn, too, yes?

So again, I'd ask what other tasks do you want to accomplish with this machine besides just mowing?

Thanks! So the zero-turn is history - it was involved in a mishap which is what's ultimately driving me to buy a new machine. I don't disagree that the dedicated mower will ultimately offer a better cut, and I'm not opposed to buying a cheap zero-turn to get places where a larger unit can't manage, but I also don't have or need a manicured lawn. I just need to keep the grass knocked-down. I also own a DR Field and Brush Mower, but aside from that I've always rented in the larger equipment as needed. I plan to keep doing that, but some of the additional capabilities I'm hoping to gain from this purchase is a FEL for loose material handling, forks for moving pallets, either a stump grinder or backhoe for stump removal (within reason), and overall better handling in wet conditions. The zero-turn was very intolerant of mud. I don't plan on using any specialty PTO implements beyond just the available accessories, so it's more or less a question of what gives me the best overall package without getting overly expensive and more machine that I really need.

Having one machine to maintain that does a lot of different jobs is a big asset. Some people have criticized the quality of grass cutting given by the PT finish mowers (and there may be truth to it if you are a perfectionist), well you can always buy whatever brand mower that is your favorite and add a hydraulic motor to it (see attached pic). I love the way my PT works for clearing land. Although not recommended, you can raise the deck over rocks/boulders and stumps and trim down. I also use mine in a vertical position, like the propeller on an airplane to push back tree growth around the edges of pastures where the vegetation always goes in. You can't do that with a zero turn.
I just bought a 5' flail for my PT1430 from Titan. To check the oil in the gearbox you have to remove the motor adapter at the gearbox. That revealed that it was a 1 3/8"-6 spline input shaft on the gearbox, the same as you would connect a tractor PTO shaft to. It is a converted shaft drive mower. The specs of the PT1430 are below the advertised min for the mower. I have only used it for about a hour and it works fine for brush clearing.
After all your mowing is said and done, for the price of attachments you can have a grapple for clearing debris, loader bucket for wheel barrel or moving earth, and the 38 other attachments they offer. It's a no brainer as my old boss used to say.

I appreciate the input! I've read through some of the debates here regarding the mower's cut quality, but I can't imagine that it'd be so poor as to not work for me. I really just need to keep the grass knocked down and not growing out of control. I know it's definitely apples and oranges between some of these machines as well. I do definitely like the versatility of having the mower mounted out front as you mention! I'm hoping to make it up to Virginia for a demo in the next few weeks before the winter sets in, so I'll be curious to see how these handle in real life.

Just FYI, flail mowers take more HP then rotary mowers, that is why PT doesn't offer them in the smaller tractors. So keep that in mind when calculating your HP requirements.

That's good to know. Would it be a fair assumption that any accessories listed on the price sheet for each unit are a suitable match horsepower-wise?

As an aside, the other machines currently in the running are the Ventrac (having a demo on my property next week) as well as the standard Kubota offerings - either an L4701 or MX5800. While the Kubota isn't as nimble as a Power Trac, I'm attracted to the wide variety of standard implements, large cutting decks, and the fact that my Kubota dealer is only 10 minutes away. Again, definitely apples to oranges to lemons, but that's more or less where I'm at right now. I appreciate all the input - thanks again!

 

[MossRoad]

One advantage of a Power Trac over a Ventrac is the Power Trac comes with a loader included in the price. The Ventrac loader is $$$ and not as capable. The Ventrac appears to be a superior mower on finished lawns. I have no issues with the cut quality on my 60" finish mower on the PT425. I have no idea of the cut quality on the larger PT's finish mowers. If you're mowing a fruit grove, do you want a finish cut, or a rough cut? I think PT makes finish mowers, rough cut mowers, and brush cutters for the larger units. So look into that.

The quality of cut issues I've seen mentioned over the years on the finish mowers are these:
1. The rear wheels on the mower decks don't caster. If you turn tightly, they can gouge a line into the grass. It's not an issue for me, but it can happen if you turn too tight too fast.
2. The rear discharge design tends to leave a windrow of grass behind the right side of the mower if the grass is thick or tall. You can alleviate this quite nicely by picking a direction where the uncut grass is to your right. Each following pass will grab the windrow with the left side of the mower and toss it to the right. So either mow counter clockwise from the inside of the area towards the outside of the area, or mow clockwise from the outside of the area towards the inside of the area, and that eliminates the windrow issue.
3. If you sharpen the blades a few times per season, and keep the engine at max RPMs, control your speed, etc... the cut itself is just as good as any other mower.

Another advantage of the PT design is that quick attach system on the FEL. I can't tell you enough how easy it is to change implements. 15 seconds from start to finish to drop an implement, back away, drive up to another implement, pick it up, lock it in, and drive away while never leaving the seat. Powered implements require you to set the brake, get off the seat, connect or disconnected hydraulic hoses, get back on, take the brake off and off you go, so add another 45 seconds to that chore! :laughing:

I actually look forward to changing implements. It's like having a letherman multitool for giants.

Another beauty of the design is that you can see everything you're doing. It's right out front, right there.

Anyhow... good you are going to look at them in person and seeing if it's right for you and your needs or not. That's the only way to know for sure. Good luck in your decision making. :thumbsup:

 

[joshlee]

Having one machine to maintain that does a lot of different jobs is a big asset. Some people have criticized the quality of grass cutting given by the PT finish mowers (and there may be truth to it if you are a perfectionist), well you can always buy whatever brand mower that is your favorite and add a hydraulic motor to it (see attached pic). I love the way my PT works for clearing land. Although not recommended, you can raise the deck over rocks/boulders and stumps and trim down. I also use mine in a vertical position, like the propeller on an airplane to push back tree growth around the edges of pastures where the vegetation always goes in. You can't do that with a zero turn.
I just bought a 5' flail for my PT1430 from Titan. To check the oil in the gearbox you have to remove the motor adapter at the gearbox. That revealed that it was a 1 3/8"-6 spline input shaft on the gearbox, the same as you would connect a tractor PTO shaft to. It is a converted shaft drive mower. The specs of the PT1430 are below the advertised min for the mower. I have only used it for about a hour and it works fine for brush clearing.
After all your mowing is said and done, for the price of attachments you can have a grapple for clearing debris, loader bucket for wheel barrel or moving earth, and the 38 other attachments they offer. It's a no brainer as my old boss used to say.

Is a flail mower for mainly cutting high grass and not brush? Is a flail mower ideal for mowing an orchard? Just curious, because I don't know much about them. I remember a new member on here saying about how the mass of those cutters are light, and it takes longer to take out a large bush.

Jeff, I have a PT-1430 and it is a very versatile machine with plenty of power for its size. Although, if you are used to mowing with a large deck, this might not be the machine for you. The mowers for these are only 60", but I have a feeling if you try out the 1445 or 1460, you might end up going home with one of them. If there is one thing I learned when it comes to tractors or pickup trucks; don't let the larger size models scare ya away. The Deutz engine that they put in these are very robust, and withstand hard weather/dirty conditions too. I wish ya the best with finding the right tractor to fit your work needs. Take care Jeff.

Josh

 

[joshlee]

I used to have a Steiner 430Max, so I know a little about the Ventrac too. They are really limited to the Power Trac because of this; the front end loader. Like Moss said, they are really nice for picture perfect lawns, beautiful stripes for golf courses, quality lawn mowing where the PT can not compete, but the height restriction issue with them really stinks. Even for grinding out stumps with a Ventrac, they don't lift quite high enough at times. Using the Pallet Forks attachment with them is a joke compared to the PT. Having said that, they are definitely a well built machine (USA), and Ventrac have a name for themselves for quality. They are the Cadillac of lawn mowers. I really like the mower design on the PT because of how they pivot side to side and front to back; it works out really well for my lawn.

 

[MossRoad]

Hey, I bumped another old post discussing sizing PT's. It's a good read.

Also, it reminded me of Hans, a member that used his PT425 in commercial work. He used the 60" finish mower, and towed a self-powered 60" finish mower offset to the rear for a 110" cut. He also towed 2 self powered 60" mowers, both off to the left side, to drop them over the side of a bank while keeping the PT425 up on the bank top. That gave him 110" of mowing down the bank.

Gotta think outside the box once in a while.

 

[m5040]

I also had a Steiner 430 max Kubota powered. It would get hung up on rocks and stumps and is made only for lawns. The slip scoop lifts about 2' high. The forklift goes about 2.5' high. You can't put larger tires on due to clearance issues in many directions. The bottom of the PT is like a steel sled and with 9" of ground clearance (1430) it can slide without damage over obstacles. Both tractors have their own implements, compare what Ventrac gets for a brush mower compared to PT (I believe Ventrac to be 3x more). Also PT sells blank plates to weld to other manufacture implements or adapters. See the pics attached, one is a PT to skid steer quick attach I just made. Now I can buy any proportionally sized skid steer implement from no name cheap manufactures and used them on the PT as shown in other pics of the flail and the front hoe. You can't do that with Ventrac.
The Kubota is hands down a great machine. The PT is vastly easier to operate due to the proximity to the implement being right in front of you. Try scooping up a small object with the loader on the Kubota and compare to a PT (it will be the same with dirt when you get it home). See how easy it is to get on and off the machine, and think of a long day working it. As mentioned, when trying the kubota, hook up the largest implement you think you might buy and see what a pain it is (make sure you at least get the extendable lower links on the 3pt and a hyd top link with 2 or 3 aux hyd circuits). The PT is effortless to change implements except getting oil on your hands/gloves from the hyd hoses.
Some people I know have a tractor for each implement because its so hard to change and make all the sway and angle adjustment to get the 3pt hitch right where you need it. I would vote a big no on the Ventrac or Steiner. You might have a tough choice with the Kubota/PT.

 

[SpringHollow]

If your main concern is getting serious power for mowing, then perhaps one of the PT slope mowers but you will lose lift capacity for that size motor relative to a 1445 or 1460.

Ken

 

[RocketManJeff]

Thanks again for all the replies. They're too many for me to quote, but it's all great information to chew on and I really appreciate the time it took everyone to contribute! I definitely see the trend about the Ventrac probably not being the best choice for me. I have the demo set up for Monday so I'll be able to see for myself, but it seems that the decision will really be between the Power Trac and the Kubota. I'm also planning to drive up to the Sunbelt Ag Expo next week to see a variety of machines and implements, so hopefully that will give me the chance to see some more equipment and ask questions.

I agree that the visibility of the front mower and quick changes of attachments are two major selling points for the Power Trac. Having driven the Kubota I'll be excited to see and feel the different when operating the Power Trac. I can definitely see how the "quality of life" considerations are important to keep in mind as well. My biggest concern with going the Power Trac route is the lack of dealers for service. While I can handle the simple things myself, I'd be concerned about not having a local dealer to help out with more significant service or repairs. To the Power Trac owners, have you ever run into issues in this regard? While I know that dealers add another cost to pay for, I like knowing that I have someone I can call to help with a repair if it's beyond my ability to handle. Thanks again, and I'll keep this thread updated as I progress with my demos and purchase!

 

[MossRoad]

Don't be afraid to come back to the discussion if you go with the Kubota. We've had many people consider the PT line but go with another direction. And that's fine. Get the machine that works out best for your needs.

I've always been comfortable working in my own machine. I rebuilt a car engine completely at age 16 by myself and some library books. The PT design is very simple. Engine turns pumps. Pumps push fluid. Fluid turns motors or pushes cylinders. Electrical is simple on my gas machine. Don't know about the diesel units. However, I've seen some of the owners do their own timing belts and such. Seems pretty straight forward.

Power Trac phone support is excellent for parts and repair suggestions. I have no complaints and would purchase again.

 

[MossRoad]

Also, Deutz diesel engines are fairly common industrial engines. There are service companies all over the country that will work on those.

 

[SpringHollow]

Around here, the tractor dealers work on lots of brands. They just have to get parts elsewhere. Most places also have hydraulics shops. Power Trac is very generous with their phone support.

So far, the Deutz diesel has been easy to work on. They are such a common engine that there are plenty of YouTube videos for maintenance.

Ken

 

[joshlee]

There are a couple of Deutz repair shops around here that would work on my PT if I wanted them to. The chainsaw , lawn mower shops would work on the gasoline PT s around here, too.

 

[ponytug]

So...I used to help maintain an apple orchard with an old Ford. Mowing, spraying, primarily. The experience was one of the prime reasons that drove me to buying a 1445. A low limb nearly swept me off the tractor into the 3 point brush cutter behind me.

Having the mower in front of you is so much easier to use. You drive over mown grass. You can see where you are going, and get quite close to trees / fences because you can see what you are doing so easily.

I love my 1445 brush cutter, but I wouldn't get near buildings or people with it. The odd branch or rock can sail off some distance. Flails are much safer in that regard. If you can afford the 1460 and need the 96" flail, go for it. If 6' width is good enough, then the 1445 will do what you need.

Some of the orchards around here in California now run a tiller down the rows to take the surface vegetation underground to decompose better. Slower, but your grass has to start all over, and you break the capillary flow of water to the surface.

If you have any 1445 specific questions, I'm happy to chime in.

All the best, Peter

 

[RocketManJeff]

Thanks again for all the suggestions - I really appreciate it. It's was a productive week on the demo front and here's where I stand:

I had the Ventrac demo last Monday. As expected, it's an excellent mower. The 60" tough cut attachment made quick work of the overgrown acres that I've let go since my Hustler blew up. Even more impressive was how well the machine handled the muddy ground due to all the rain that came through over the weekend. I expected the 32HP engine to struggle a bit, but nope! It cut like a champ. The two major downsides I see to this though are that it's only a 60" cut (the sales rep didn't think the larger finish mowers would be a good fit for me), and despite being maneuverable, it's not a zero-turn...obviously. While tight turns are a piece of cake, I'm still much faster on a zero-turn when cutting around single trees. Probably the most telling part of the demo was when the sales rep got his truck stuck in my driveway. The Ventrac didn't have the ability to do much with the situation, whereas my neighbor who owns a proper tractor was able to make quick work with pulling both the trailer and pickup out of the mud. That definitely got me thinking about what else I could (should) be getting for the price I'd pay for the Ventrac. It was a great demo though!

On Wednesday I went up to Georgia to visit the Sunbelt Ag Expo - it was quite the experience getting to see so much equipment in one place! While PowerTrac wasn't in attendance, I was able to find something rather similar to play with (I forget the brand). While definitely more capable than the Ventrac and still maneuverable, I'm still worried about the rather limited assortment of attachments available compared to the larger market for standard tractors. I know there are ways to mod the attachments to fit the PowerTrac, but it's still a drawback to me in addition to the sales/service straight out of Virginia.

I'd have to say the highlight of my trip was probably stopping by the Kubota booth and sitting on the new MX6000. It's quite the machine, and honestly the visibility isn't as bad as I was expecting compared to the Ventrac. Sure the mower will be on the back compared to the front, but seeing over the hood wasn't much different than the view from the Ventrac despite being much higher. Being able to pull a 12ft batwing is a major advantage in my opinion compared to even the PowerTrac, and having a proper backhoe option is a close second compared to the mini-hoe. I really appreciate everyone's input and I'm sure that it'd be hard to go wrong either way, but barring an unexpected hiccup I'm thinking that the MX6000 is where my money is going to be spent. I plan to find a cheap zero-turn to cut around the trees, fence lines, and other few places the 12ft batwing can't fit - not to mention help cut until the MX6000s start shipping. Thanks again!

 

[MossRoad]

An excellent choice for you needs. :thumbsup: