size weight vs. fwd cuts

[arrow]

Recently, while watching a tractor pull contest at a local fair, I got to thinking as to exactly when does a front wheel assist tractor that is smaller, get to the same work ability as a larger 2wd tractor or is there any equal point at all. While watching the 3500# class, I said to myself "my 3000# JD 750 with loaded rears in 4wd would never be able to pull a 5500# sled such as these 2wd tractors are doing or even a 500# less heavy sled to make up the tractor weight difference. The deceased farmer across from me would routinely pull out two 16" oaks with the tops attached out of course woods with a Farmall tricycle. . I need two trips to get even one tree completely out. Of course pulling with weight in the back begins to negate front wheel assist. If one were plowing snow, 4wd certainly comes in handy but all the differentials such as gearing, rear wheel size. tire type (for this discussion, let's say we're comparing ag treads)and beyond weight and weighting, I'd just be curious to know other people's hypotheses where the break even point is and how much of a non difference 4wd would make on a smaller vs. larger tractor.

 

[john_bud]

Depends on uses. For loader work, it's about 2:1 or even 3:1 -- but can be 1:1. Where a 3000# fwa tractor can get the work done that a 6000-9000# 2wd tractor can do. Obviously, the ground makes a huge difference too. On all flat hard dry ground, there may be no difference, where working on wet, muddy and/or hilly ground it may be 3:1. I know my 10,000# TLB can't back up a 25% grade at all with a full bucket, but the 4000# fwa tractor can easily.

For field work ?

jb

 

[Lunk]

I had a 2wd Ford 2000 gasser (3 cyl) that weighed about 4k with loaded rears and an ancient FASCO loader on it. In the winter I'd chain 'er up and hook up to a 800# ballast box, and plow snow like there's no tomorrow.

That being said, I think my FWA CUT will work even better. The bare tractor weighs about 3800#, and with loader and ballast (in the form of a weighted box blade) will scale about 5k. We'll have to see if chains are needed...

When it comes to getting power to the ground, whether pulling or plowing, weight is a good thing, unless of course you are spending a lot of time on lawns, or in the soupy stuff.

Those old tractors are pretty heavy...

 

[Farmwithjunk]

A point that you touched upon is the OLD farmer pulling with the FarmAll..... Old, as in EXPERIENCED. There's a lot to know about pulling with a tractor. Age isn't an automatic.... but without age, as logic will dictate, you have a much greater library of experience to call upon. Some of us old timers learned to do with what we had. A lot of that "school of hard knocks" knowledge sticks with us. Pulling a load isn't all about brute force power. There are subtle "tricks of the trade".

Also, when pulling off the drawbar, weight transfer can (should) put the majority of the tractors entire weight on the rear wheels. Gearing on the oldies is such that they take advantage of that weight and usually, slow, torquey power.

I've got three MFWD tractors. I've got three 2wds. Even on the 3 equipped with MFWD, I use the 4wd far less than what I'd perceive as "average". Just don't need it that much. It's handy when needed, but again, it just isn't all than nessicary the majority of the time.

I'd imagine MFWD is more critical if and when a person is trying to use a small tractor in place of a larger one. (All 3 of my MFWD's are "larger"....85 to 95 hp)

 

[art]

Just for thoughts of the age and old, a good freind that owns a BX23 towed out of his woodlot three trailer loads of cherry with some up to 16' plus long logs. There was nothing under 16" on the stump and some up to 20" This was not on the level as he dragged them down a hill about 50' height change across a stream thats about 6' wide and then a gain about 70' back up a hill to where I loaded them in a trailer to transport to a freinds sawmill.

I figure the four wheel gain to be mainly noticable in less then ideal conditions! It can make a thirty horsepower machine act better then a fifty!

Knowing how to use things properly makes a big difference in the jobs you might get done.

 

[Runner]

"There are subtle "tricks of the trade". "

FWJ,

As a young (50 year old) whipper-snapper, I'd love to hear some of your tricks for future reference. Maybe I can save myself some work/headaches and some wear and tear on the equipment.

 

[arrow]

"There are subtle "tricks of the trade". "

FWJ,

As a young (50 year old) whipper-snapper, I'd love to hear some of your tricks for future reference. Maybe I can save myself some work/headaches and some wear and tear on the equipment.

Good point FWJ. One of the tricks that my farmer friend used was that he never initiated a pull with straight wheels. He'd turn the trike wheels first, start off on a pivot, immediately straighten and off he'd go the rest of the way. that Farmall was pretty agile in the woods with its tri stance. I witnessed someone's death many years ago when the guy strapped 3 16-20" stems about 20 ft long to his Allis WD-45. He revved the engine,popped the clutch and over he went. My Farmer friend thought it safer to start on an arc. He also thought it started the load more easily. Don't know of the validity to his theory but it worked for him.

 

[Farmwithjunk]

Good point FWJ. One of the tricks that my farmer friend used was that he never initiated a pull with straight wheels. He'd turn the trike wheels first, start off on a pivot, immediately straighten and off he'd go the rest of the way. that Farmall was pretty agile in the woods with its tri stance. I witnessed someone's death many years ago when the guy strapped 3 16-20" stems about 20 ft long to his Allis WD-45. He revved the engine,popped the clutch and over he went. My Farmer friend thought it safer to start on an arc. He also thought it started the load more easily. Don't know of the validity to his theory but it worked for him.

There is one good "trick". By starting the pull at a slight angle, you will begin moving the "object" with little sideways movement instead of all forward drag. Just getting something moving, even if it's not 100% in the direction you're finally headed might just make the move a little easier. By pulling slightly sidewaysat first, you're moving just part of the weight initially. Once it's moving, then you go straight and take on all the weight/resistance

Also, if you get 100% traction right off the mark, you might just bog the engine down. By lining up at a slight angle, you get a little wheel slip as the hard pull starts. That let's you get started moving gradually. (Let the wheels serve as a slip clutch so to speak) If the tractor won't pull whatever it is you're pulling, and the little bit of wheel spin turns into a spinout, well, that would have happened anyway. If the tractor CAN pull whatever it is, that little bit of "spin" goes away quickly once things start moving.

NEVER attach a chain above the drawbar on ANY tractor. Bad things can happen. But, carefully choose where you hook thechain to whatever it is you're dragging. The forward pull should, if possible, raise the leading edge, or at the very least, not force it to dig in. Hook LOW to the ground.

MOMENTUM. Once you're moving, KEEP MOVING.

S.L.O.W. and steady. Don't jerk. No clutch dumping or "fanning" the clutch. Even if nothing serious happens at the moment, that's rough on equipment. If the tractor won't pull whatever it is, GET A BIGGER TRACTOR.

 

[slowzuki]

Drawbar pull, when it is angled down (such as a plow or weight sled), can transfer all the tractor weight and part of the load weight to the rear wheels. When those front wheels are just kissing the ground and you're steering with your brakes, there is much more than the tractor weight on the rear tires.

A draft type 3 point hitch helps with this as when it is loaded harder, it lifts to transfer weight to the rear tires.

In simple terms, the traction obtained is that total weight on the tires multiplied by the coefficient of friction the tire can make. So a small increase in weight or weight distribution can really increase traction. (500 lbs of suitcase weight hung way out front could increase your peak pull by more than 500 lbs)

Where the 4wd helps a lot is when you aren't pulling such that the weight transfer happens. So, a level pull on a trailer or tree, pushing with a loader, driving a full loader bucket up a hill etc.

The other thing is, when the coefficient of friction drops off, all that weight up front on a 2wd becomes a hinderance as it can't generate enough pull to lift it and has to plow it through instead. Watch a ballasted 2wd try to get through a wet field.

 

[Egon]

Watch a ballasted 2wd try to get through a wet field.

Do we have enough time???

Or does it sprout and grow??

 

[neucam]

I too went to a tractor pull and wondered if I could compete in the lower classes, I think the class was the 2500-3000lb. JD M's competed. They struggled with the load. My CUT is 4wd, similar power as the JD's but diesel. My tractor weight is about that with a loader and tires balasted, the JD's were bare. I believe my engine could pull the load in a low gear event, as I can spin all wheels trying to move too much at times. At a pull if you get load transferr to the rear it almost negates the 4wd effect. But with a loader as on my property it becomes more important with slopes and slippery surfaces. I use 4wd a lot of times.
I think I can do more than a larger 2wd could on my property.

 

[vsteel]

One thing to remember on the tractor pulls is that they really get the draw bar height to a science. If you look at a lot of the good pullers with the old tractors, they don't use the front wheels much at all in the pull. You will see the front wheels just kissing the ground just enough so they can adjust during the pull if needed without hitting the breaks.

The pull is also setup with a lighter weight and goes heavier so they have an easier time getting it moving, on a manicured track and no obstacles.

I personally find that the 4wd is good for the not so ideal situations already mentioned.

 

[N80]

The one thing I can say for certain is that on my tractor (light weight 4wd 45 hp), when pulling, especially something like a plow or a disk, 4wd vs 2wd is night and day. No comparison. Could a better, more experience operator do better with it in 2wd than I do? I'd say yes, without a doubt. But then again, I'm the one that has to drive my tractor and it literally does almost everything better in 4wd usually dramatically so. But even more important, if you put the better driver on the tractor, he's just as likely to get more out of the machine in 4wd too! A better operator is going to be better than an inexperienced one no matter what.

But the real question is always heavy, usually cheaper, often more powerful 2wd vs lighter, less powerful 4wd. In this sort of comparison I think it is best to assume the same operator for each. And it seems to me the answer is not just how much each one will pull vs the other. I think you need to look at what the tractor is intended to do. Its a lot easier to trailer smaller tractors. There's less manienance with a simpler 2wd. The 4wd is likely to handle poor soil conditions better and is almost always going to handle hills better. A lighter machine is less likely to damage lawns and such. A big machine is likely to have more PTO and hydraulic power.

I think all these have to be weighed against intended use.

 

[Gary Fowler]

IMO the 4 wd tractors allow you to maintain a smaller footprint and do the same work. OLDER farm 2WD tractors are mostly much longer wheelbase, wider stance, super heavy by comparison to CUT and many instances in high HP have dual rear wheels to capture that large HP available and transfer it to traction. Having the front wheels pulling negates having to have wider tires or duals for traction and enables us to drive through narrower paths while still being able to pull a substantial load. Also we dont need as much weight to do the same amount of work as a straight 2 WD therefore saving cost on material. The down size as I see it now is that with all the new materials and computer engineered designs, the tractors parts are now just marginally strong enough for the engine HP so they dont self destruct when fully loaded. We dont have the luxury of being able to turn up the injector pump 20-30% to increase the power and not break something like the older tractors with their massive frames, gears and axles.

 

[wolc123]

For loader work and tillage, 4wd makes a huge difference, nearly twice as effective in terms of tractor power and weight. This translates into a fuel savings that makes doing these jobs with 2wd very wastefull considering the price of fuel these days. That being said, even though I own a 4wd, I prefer to use a 2wd for dragging logs. In my opinion, 4wd is absolutely no advantage for this job. One should not drag logs when mud is an issue since the destruction done to the land is excessive. If you dont care what the land looks like after you finish, and have to get a job done on a tight schedule, then I guess I could understand an advantage in muddy conditions. On dry or frozen ground, when you grab a log or group of logs by the 3-pt and lift them a bit, then drag, most of the weight is transferred off the front axle, and even if it had power, it would not do you any good.

 

[Ryan03]

I agree that the 4 wheel drive offers an advantage when using a FEL. However, before I had my Farmtrac 270 while clearing the land my home now sits on, I often would use my father in laws old Ford 600. It had an almost new set of carlisle ags with a complete calcium fill, and just an old 6 ft rear blade on the 3pt. That machine was by no means a power house, but it was an absolute animal in the mud, It would go places that I would never even consider taking my Farmtrac 270 4x4. It probably had double the ground clearence the farmtrac does, which seemed to be its biggest advantage on soft ground.

 

[wkpoor]

When I went looking for a utility tractor 2yrs ago I told myself over 50HP 4WD not needed and under 50HP I will want it. I ended up buying a 60 PTO HP Deere 5400 2WD. 99% of the time I don't miss the AWD at all and get more use out of the power and stoutness of the larger frame. There have been a few case when on a muddy hill with my grapple and a log that I could have used it but those times have been few enough to not have justified the extra coin to get 4WD. I still lust for 4WD in the same size tractor but in reality I get along fine with what I have.

 

[schmism]

a lot of the farm boys round my parts run the following.

corn,beans,winter wheet
hay
cows

the standard mid size AG tractor round hear is a 80-100hp 4wd, loader.

no way a 100hp 2wd is going to deliver that 1200lb bail to the middle of the knee deep pit surrounding the feeding ring in march.

so that same tractor pulls bailers, batwings, 15' wheel rakes, large grain bins, planters, discs, moves/stacks round bales, manure work...

when shooting for multi purpose tractor, all the guys round hear run 4wd

 

[N80]

A farmer friend of mine has cows and does his own hay. Good sized operation. He has probably 10 - 12 tractors, all old, all 2wd. He has no problem with pulling things, from the 14' mowers, to the hay mower, to the bailer to a string of hay wagons, etc etc. He does no disking or plowing although he does pull a large no-till drill.

In any case, about a year ago he mentioned that his next tractor will be 4wd. The reason is carrying bails on our slippery hills. He's had more than one change your underwear moment on wet grassy hills with either a bail on the loader of hay wagons in train behind him.

The thing is, even though his newest tractor is a 1980 model, I bet it will be many years before he buys another tractor and I doubt he'll ever buy one new.

 

[RollingsFarms]

my story about getting MFWD is probably different then most. i had farmed with 2wd's all my life and was set on getting another 2wd, only alot bigger then what i previously owned and get a front end loader. never had a tractor with a fel, but figured hey what the heck, there have been a few times i could have used one so i'll get it this time around. i figured i would be buying in the next year......that is until my tractor needed it's first major repair since i'd owned it. got the quote of hat it was going to cost, and it was within a few hundred $$$ of what it was worth. i had a decision to make, get this tractor fixed and put off buying a new one for awhile, or go see what my local JD dealer had going on before i made my decision of what to do. i stopped by oneday and told him what i wanted(2wd, 55-65hp, fel). it was then i learned he had a heck of a deal going on all MFWD 5003 tractors. 0% for 48 months AND he'd knock off $2,000. i asked what deals the 2wd tractors had, and it was only 0% 36 and no money off. i wanted to keep my payments under $400 so i said the heck with it and got a MFWD 56hp tractor with an MX6(he also knocked $400 off of that price). i didn't get the fel, but got my tractor set up for it for the future. all that came too $370 a month and i couldn't be happier. so for me, i didn't really need MFWD, hadn't planned on even getting it, but the deal was just so much better. glad i have it now. i can't speak on the difference it makes on loader work yet since i dont have one, but as for pulling, well 56hp and 4 wheels pulling is just down right nasty. i can't even imagine how much better it will pull after i get the tires loaded and add on my rear wheel weights when i get the fel.