Shut off engine to unhook/hook up?

[cowboydoc]

I haven't ever turned my tractor off. It's a pain hooking up equipment as it is without making it harder by having to stop and start your tractor as well. Also it helps alot to be able to raise and lower the 3 point arms to hook equipment up. Most of the CUT's also have a safety feature that if you aren't in the seat the pto won't engage anyway. On my bigger tractors it's an effort to engage the pto so I don't see how that could ever happen either.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi,

I think it's like the lottery...if you don't buy a ticket you can't win!

Or just the opposite!

If you don't run the engine, the PTO won't turn...and you can't lose...your clothes, appendages or life.

My policy? <font color=red> Buy one</font color=red> lotto ticket...and <font color=green>remove one</font color=green> tractor ignition key!

The payoff in both cases are unlikely...but both possible...why take the chance unless you want the possible result?

Bill in Pgh, PA

 

[looch]

Possible versus probable.

If you avoided things based on the possibility of injury, you wouldn't get very far. I try to avoid things that probably will cause me harm, but even then that's not practical - like driving a car.

Shutting down the engine every time you hook up a new implement (shutdown the tractor, remove the old implement, start up the tractor, move to the new implement, shut down the tractor, hook up, then start the tractor again) would represent a significant amount of wear and tear on the tractor. Not worth it to me for the amount of probable risk.

Don't change your ways on what a few faceless people say on the 'Net - do what is comfortable for you.

 

[skent]

For 3 point connections and FEL I leave engine running, brakes locked, range in neutral.

If hook-up requires connecting a PTO shaft, engine is off - key is in pocket.

Neighbor got caught in a PTO two years ago. He lived through it. . . . but ain't been right since (for a good reason).

And while I've never heard of a PTO engaging itself either, it's just my personal preference.

 

[Mosey]

cowboydoc - "it's an effort to engage the pto". Good point, I have to double clutch half the time to get mine to engage.

pbenven - "Don't change your ways on what a few faceless people say on the 'Net - do what is comfortable for you." I agree! The purpose of the post was to do a poll and nothing more. I'm not trying to convince anyone to leave the tractor running if they don't already.

The score so far:

Leave running: 7

Shut off: 11 (plus 1 with an electronically engaged PTO, which isn't what I was referring to)

I don't know how to tally Egon's replyt, but it was funny!

 

[dmccarty]

Mosey,

I leave the engine running while hooking up the 3PH implement.

The engine is turned off when I put on or take off the PTO
shaft. The easiest way for me to put on the PTO shaft is
to straddle the shaft and let my legs hold it steady while I get
the collar on the tractor PTO.

THERE AIN'T NO WAY IN HADES I'M GOING TO RISK THAT
SHAFT TURN'N WHEN I'M HOLDING ON WITH MY LEGS.

NOT TO MENTION THAT ITS TO DANGED CLOSE TO THE
FAMILY JEWELS!!!!!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

The engine is off. When I live on the property I'll take the
key out of the ignition as well. To many people have been
killed by power when a switch was not locked and someone
else turned the power back on... Not likely to happen to me
since I work alone but given how close that shaft is to Mr.
Precious......

/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later,
Dan

 

[Mosey]

I'm like pbenven on technique. I stand to one side and hold onto the PTO shield with one hand and the yoke with the other. I keep a thin coat of oil on the PTO shaft so all of the implement's shafts slip right on quickly. On my finish mower, which is the widest implement I have, I do have to step over one lower 3pt hitch arm with one foot in order to reach easier, but I don't ever stand right over the PTO shaft.

 

[cowboydoc]

I think the key question is has there ever been an incident where a pto spontaneously engaged? Everyday people are killed by automobile crashes, even those with seat belts on, air bags, etc., the safest of drivers. I agree with pbeven that if we did everything everyday based on a probability of there being an accident we would never get very far. I would venture to say that you have more of a chance of getting hit by lightning but we still go out in the rain. I know for a fact that you have more of a chance of dying from heart disease caused by lack of exercise and poor diet than the pto shaft but everyday most people don't do any exercise and feast on the fat machine.

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi again,

<font color=blue>pbenven - "Don't change your ways on what a few faceless people say on the 'Net - do what is comfortable for you." </font color=blue>

I don't mean to become the crusader for the �gturn it off side�c�h

But a guy I knew did get killed in the place where I worked, probably because he was comfortable in what he was doing, or careless, or both.

I can tell you with great certainty that comfort around dangerous things leads to accidents. Simple as that. Might even coin the saying �gcomfort breeds contempt!�h

Guess I will now have to figure out how to attach a photo of myself so I can�ft be accused of being faceless anymore /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Frankly, I would caution anyone against advising others to do something that could result in serious injury, simply because they feel comfortable doing it.

Forgetting tractors for a moment, do you pull the plug on your table saw or router when you change the blade/bit? If you don�ft you should. Will you lose something like a finger or worse if you don�ft? Probably not; possibly so.

I suggest that those comfortable doing things than could possibly [if not probably] cause them great harm, seek out someone who has actually suffered from doing that same thing, and see if that person continues the same behavior after the fact.

Publish a tally of those responses and you will have something meaningful.

Maybe someone knows for sure, but I believe I have read that the farm is a much more dangerous place than the factory. Why? I don�ft know, maybe because in the factory they stress safety as a way of life in the work place.

In any event, we will all do what we want <font color=red>regardless of whatever anyone preaches.</font color=red>

And we may suffer if we are wrong in our decisions.

Such is life.

Bill in Pgh, PA

 

[Egon]

Mosey:
I'm neutral. For some jobs the tractor is shutoff. For others it's left running. Depending on situation. I'd be more concerned with guards and shields or trying to work on rotating equipment. As most of my clothes are old almost all the pockets have holes in them and the key just falls down into my boot.

Training and procedures from my working days would require everything shut off, The ignition locked out and the key placed in a locked box to which only I would have a key. On electrical systems I fully support this procedure.

Egon

 

[looch]

Comfortable was the wrong word. "At ease with the risk" may have been better.

I'm not "comfortable" when I'm hooking up the PTO with the engine running, but I'm aware of the danger and alert to my surroundings.

Yes, I do disconnect the plug on my tools when changing blades/bits - the probability of the trigger being pulled is too great.

Comfort does indeed breed contempt - something I can relate to as a former hydraulic press brake operator.

<font color=blue>...seek out someone who has actually suffered...</font color=blue>

You mean like my wife who had a car accident and doesn't want to drive anymore? Or my cousin who almost drowned and so now won't even go near a boat? This is fear - not higher learning.

<font color=blue>And we may suffer if we are wrong in our decisions</font color=blue>

You should shorten that to just "We may suffer," because, life is inherently dangerous, regardless of the decisions you make.

And finally to correct your or anyone else's misinterpretation of my statement: <font color=blue>Don't change your ways on what a few faceless people say on the 'Net - do what is comfortable for you</font color=blue>. This was to discourage people from doing things that are less safe - not the other way around.

 

[gerard]

Gotta disagree about it being "a chore" turning tractor on/off as well as the added wear and tear issue. First by the time I'm hooking/unhooking the tractors warmed up and shutting/restarting is minimal wear and tear at best since residual oil is still on all parts and everythings warm. Where's the chore? turning a key?? I only turn off for pto, I leave it on for non pto implements because you do have to move things to line up the implement. I also take into consideration having seen a lot of older tractors where the pto always turns a little bit. Now I'm not sure of the actual mechanics of how the power transfers from the engine to the pto output shaft but the fact that some turn while in the off position leads me to beleive that some "bleed through" is possible and it's not that unlikley that it could start turning when you don't want it to. Certainly enough for me to shut things down when grabbing that thing!!

 

[JIMCT]

Having read all the posts I conclude that it would be safe to leave the engine running if the tractor has the proper seat safety switches and no one else is ever around. How can anyone ever guarantee that?

When I am around my tractor there are often family around, especially kids. It is just common sense that if it is possible for a switch to be pulled by accident you make sure that can't hurt anyone.

I do the same thing even if I'm alone because once it becomes a habit I can keep out of trouble even with a thinking lapse on my part (they happen).

 

[Anonymous Poster]

Hi <font color=green>Pbenven</font color=green> and all...

This almost is becoming a debate! I don't think we mean it to be that, but rather just a safety discussion. And it is always hard to convey in writing thoughts anyway...but anyway, let me respond to a couple points.../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

<font color=blue>...seek out someone who has actually suffered...</font color=blue>

<font color=green>You mean like my wife who had a car accident and doesn't want to drive anymore? Or my cousin who almost drowned and so now won't even go near a boat? This is fear - not higher learning.</font color=green>

Was your wife wearing her seat belt? That is the choice analogous to turning off the tractor when connecting the PTO shaft. Driving the car is equivalent to operating the tractor. They are not the same. When doing something it is prudent to minimize the odds that it will have a serious repercussion. We cannot eliminate the bad or good that may by chance come into our lives. But for most of us it is a good idea to try to minimize the bad and maximize the good.

Was your cousin wearing a life jacket...?

I was really being more specific [or trying to be.../w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif] and referring to people who suffered PTO shaft accidents. And I do suspect that most of them happened when the equipment was in operation, not when the hook up was being done...but still, why take chances even when hooking up.

<font color=blue>And we may suffer if we are wrong in our decisions</font color=blue>

<font color=green>You should shorten that to just "We may suffer," because, life is inherently dangerous, regardless of the decisions you make.</font color=green>

It could be said equally easily that life is inherently wonderful, and we should keep it that way by doing our best to minimize the dangers that are out there waiting for us.

By the way, my focus has for some reason been on the danger of the turning PTO shaft. I guess I fear it more than the TPH lift arms. Much more. I normall do keep the engine on when hooking up the TPH, but just can't bring myself to let the engine run when my hands are near the PTO shaft.

By voicing these opinions I am not trying to tell anyone what to do. I just believe that we all should be aware of the dangers that we are facing when we make a decision to do something.

In the end we all must live with the results of our everyday decisions. As well as with, as you say, things that are beyond our control.

Remember, if it can happen, it will. Probably to someone else, but how can we ever be sure? So it pays to do our best to minimze the chances of something bad happening.

Life is good.

Bill in Pgh, PA

 

[Mosey]

The only type of PTO accidents I've ever heard of is when someone got too close to a PTO shaft that was already spinning. Has anyone ever heard of a case where a PTO engaged "by itself", either from some mechanical failure or an electrical failure?

 

[dmccarty]

cowboydoc,

You are correct about the various risks from cars, eating,
lack of excercise, lightning, etc. Well I do control my weight
and I do get excercise though not as much as I would like so
I control my risks in that regard. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

And the risk of having the PTO shaft start turning while I'm
connecting an implement is very small. I know my JD has
the disconnects if my butt is not in the seat which makes it
even safer. But I thought it was possible to turn on the PTO
if I start the tractor with my rear out of the seat. So there
is a limited chance of a problem that could turn on the PTO.

I have a better chance of winning the Florida Lottery than
this happening.

But that is not why I turn off the tractor to attach the PTO
shaft. I do it as a matter of habit. Like wearing my seat
belt on the tractor or in my vehicles. Or putting on safety
chaps, helment and saftey boots when operating my
chainsaw. Or a few other things that I do.

I'm a very strong believer in Safety is a Habit. I have had
enough times where Habit has kept me from doing unsafe
things. That is why I turn off the engine when I'm messing
with the PTO. Just to reinforce the habit that the PTO can
put a world of hurt on me when the tractor is running. Just
don't go back there with the PTO engaged and the engine
running. That is the message and the habit.

From a PURE safety standpoint I should turn off the tractor
whenever I'm back there with an implement but that just
is not possible with my terrain and equipment. It would take
a half a day to hook something up and it already takes to long!
/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Later,
Dan

 

[cowboydoc]

Dan,

If that's the way you do things by all means go ahead and do it. I'm not saying that it's bad to do just that I feel it's not needed. There is absolutely no way that the pto could go on in my bigger jd tractors. In the compact it is also virtually impossible for the pto to ever come on. The only way that would happen is if someone was sitting in the seat and pulled the knob.

I've searched the emergency room records database and can't find where this has ever happened. I would like to know if anyone knows of a documented case of this happening.

My only point was that I was agreeing about it does get to the point of being ridiculous the things a person worries about. If it's important to a person or they think that it's an issue then by all means they should do what they feel is best. Me I'm **** about what I eat and exercise. I have seen the "junk" that clogs your arteries. I avoid all kinds of fast and junk food and eat very healthy. Another guy, even another doctor, will tell me I'm over reacting. I may very well be but it's what I feel is right with me. When I was in school I still was riding bulls. I ate healthy then too. One of my friends asked why I was worrying about eating so healthy when I was going to get killed riding bulls. Pretty good point!! I probably had more of a chance getting killed riding bulls but that didn't bother me but eating right sure did, LOL.

In this case I don't think there is any right or wrong answer. A guy certainly isn't wrong for turning the tractor off and being ultra careful. Nor do I think a guy is being reckless by leaving it running.

 

[JohnMiller3]

<font color=blue>...I don't think there is any right or wrong answer. A guy certainly isn't wrong for turning the tractor off and being ultra careful. Nor do I think a guy is being reckless by leaving it running. ...</font color=blue>

I agree...

If at any time you feel uncomfortable doing something... STOP !

On most of the older tractors without telescopic lift arms... back up to implement, leave it running, jump off, go back wrestle to put one lift ball on, go back to tractor, adjust position control, fiddle up/down, go back to implement, hook up other side, fiddle some more with the position control...etc.,etc.,etc... In other words, you essentially had to leave it running to remain productive and complete the hookup...

Out of many years of doing that, I leave things running even with my telescopic lift arms...

<font color=red>Warning-Beware of bystanders and inexperienced helpers...</font color=red> that's when you can get hurt or killed very quickly... have people stay clear of your work area until you're done... while it's running, if they hit the wrong lever you asked them to move or accidently hit the position control and crush you in a blink of an eye...

 

[Soundguy]

Some mahindras have electronically engaged pto's.

Soundguy



<font color=blue>Don't some tractors engage PTOs electronically, with the flip of a switch (or am I imagining things )? Like your 29D, my 25D has levers that have to be moved

 

[knucklehead]

My two coppers:

I like to be able to use the lift to get the bottom links on or off. I try to get close to a loose fit on the lower pins by eyeball whether attaching or removing, and can at least get one on with a little kicking. With a clutch driven PTO and geared tractor, I can idle down, put everything in neutral, set the brake, and be pretty confident it isn't going to go <A target="_blank" HREF=http://us.imdb.com/Plot?0071717>Killdozer</A> on me (anyone remember this movie?). Once I have the bottom 3 ph links on/off, however, it gets shut off. I hate the noise, and there's no good reason to leave it running, especially when I'm half laying between the tractor and the 'hog trying to get the PTO shield off/on. Plus you are more inclined to spend a few extra seconds looking things over both at the back of the tractor and the implement. I found the lower right arm had lost it's retaining pin back under the axle this Summer. Wonder what that coming off while beating up saplings would have been like?

I unplug everything (except drills) when changing blades/bits. Funny, because the only thing that ever attacked me was a drill - wound up in my pants leg. I shut off my truck when mounting/removing the plow.

I also shut off the lawn mower when clearing a clog, and stop my chainsaw when sharpening/fueling. Call me a wimp - at least I have a finger to give you, if I was so inclined. /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Oh, and I don't make toast in the shower. Anymore.