Scary experience/neighbors dog

[Pilot]

Let's look at Joe's alternatives:

1. Travel down the street only in a dog resistant vehicle (car, not bicycle). In that case, the stupid dog owner and the dog control the street and other's are deprived of their freedom. Visitors to the area are at risk.

2. Carry bear spray. I haven't used sprays, but have heard that some animals ignore the stuff. What if this dog is not impressed? Dead kid.

3. Carry some other weapon, less dangerous to bystanders, say a big knife, baseball bat or even a sword. With the knife, you could get mauled while stabbing at the dog. With a bat or sword, a missed or bounced swing could hit your kid or wife. Maybe a spear would work. Got one handy?

4. Recognizing Joe is skilled with a gun, carry the weapon he knows how to use well. Good chance of stopping dog, slight chance of hurting anyone else.

Any other alternatives?

I like option 4 and would do it myself even though I haven't used my .357 for several years. Or maybe a 12 ga.

Joe did the right thing, in my book.

 

[weldingisfun]

Based upon the outcome, Joe made all the right decision. Based upon the situation, Joe was left with no acceptable alternative other than the one he took. Joe, add me to the list of your supporters.

 

[weldingisfun]

Based upon the outcome, Joe made the right decision. Based upon the situation that Joe and his family were forced to face, Joe's actions were the only ones he could have taken to live life as he is entitled. An American should never be forced to cower inside the safety of his home because of the negligent disregard for others demonstrated by this neighbor. Joe, add me to your list of supporters.

 

[Sigarms]

My wife thought for sure it was going to attack and pulled out her concealed weapon. She hesitated and the owner came out and called the dog back. The dog was within 2 feet of my wife and baby.

At this point I moved ahead of my wife to draw the dog away from my wife and baby. As this is happening the dog turns and heads straight for my wife and baby in the stroller!!!!! My wife jumps in front of the of the baby with her back to the dog.

I pulled my .45 and fired one shot hitting the dog behind the ear as it was about the leap onto my wife

That .230gr HP hit the dog and sent it sideways 10 feet.

I told her that paper targets don't move, and after the first shot, I lost my sight picture since the dog was blown back 10 feet.

I'm sorry, what I've quoted sounds like total B.S.

Dog was 2' away from wife and baby and wife had the gun drawn and did not shoot? Should of dropped the dog there. 2' gives no room for margin. 21' rule for a two legged animal with a knife. If the wife won't shoot at 2', she won't shoot, a gun is no good to her.

I've never known an animal or human to be blown away 10' when hit by a bullet traveling over 700 FPS. The live target (either two or four legged) will drop in it's tracks, keep moving in the same direction it was going (even towards you), or pause, then drop or keep moving.

You train to do a double tap, you do a double tap, you don't have time to think about it (not in quote, apologies).

Armed, you don't leave your position when your trying to defend others. You put the threat in front of you and those you want to protect behind you.

I'm still trying to figure out the "ear shot", where the bullet entered, and yet the dog was "blown back 10'"

Sight picture? Using a handgun, I always use two eyes and never rely on the dominant eye for a sight picture after the follow up shot (then again, that could just be me).

Flame away, call it armchair quaterbacking or what have you. The story does not seem right.

 

[DUMBDOG]

I would like to thank Joe for making the state of Florida safer for all of us.

Here comes the flaming, the dog went sideways ten feet, not back.

 

[gemini5362]

Since I was not there I am not going to question any one elses story that is for sure. I would offer a bit of advice based on my own personal feeling about self protection. I assume joe is a very good shot. At the distances he is talking about and the speed of a grown dog I would advise anyone to shoot for the body. Larger mass area to shoot at. You might not kill it but if you shoot at the front half of the dog behind the leg it probably is not going to be much of a danger to you if you dont kill it. For the people out there that are worried about shooting a firearm and maybe hitting someone else. I would offer a suggestion I am not saying this will work but it has slowed some dogs down for me. I ride a motorcycle and it is amazing how many dogs wont chase cars but will chase a motorcycle. If you get a couple of dogs runing in front of you that becomes dangerous if you should hit one it is a problem. I have tried talking to owners and to be honest I am better off yelling at my tractor at least I dont expect it to do anything about a dog problem ( See how I got something about tractors in my response. I know what forum I am in ) I did not want to kill a dog over them chasing me so I borrowed my sons paint gun pistol it suprises the dog when you hit it and it has some nice paint spots on it when you get done.

 

[RobertN]

Edited. Seems somewhat like another story I came across. Watch a .50 rifle shoot a cement block out past 100 yards. See the cement block "blow up" when hit with a .50 bullet. Take that same rifle and shoot a dead cow (or alive) at the same distance. Most people think the cow will "blow up" when hit. Doesn't happen (now a rabbit with a .22-250 with a hot load, thats another story!).

Rabbit won't do anything with FMJ. Niether will the cow. Now, a .22-250 with a hot load behind a 52gr varmit grade jacketed hollow point would. If you could load a .50BMG with a 700gr JHP, the cow might have a very substantial exit wound too.

It may be possible that a dog would deflect or spin if it was running in at a crossing angle instead of straight on.

 

[Ronbo]

I also had the experience of shooting a dog (doberman) while visiting my inlaws in California. I knew what to say due to my CCW classes. Hit the dog in the leg as it lunged at my BIL. Police were very understanding and did not keep my weapon. This was 4 yrs ago, made the paper, and I am still the local hero in the neighborhood. My goal was to stop the dog. I did not have a choice of being there as I was working on the inlaws rental house. This is next door to the dobys house. As sson as the owner left, it was out. Had a habit of terrorizing the neighborhood. Police would not do anything because they did not witness the attack. They were sitting down the street as my FIL was talking to dispatch. When the disapatcher heard the shot, we had 4 officers there within 30 seconds.

Ron

 

[Sigarms]

Rabbit won't do anything with FMJ. Niether will the cow. Now, a .22-250 with a hot load behind a 52gr varmit grade jacketed hollow point would. If you could load a .50BMG with a 700gr JHP, the cow might have a very substantial exit wound too.

It may be possible that a dog would deflect or spin if it was running in at a crossing angle instead of straight on.

I'm familiar with different loads and bullets. I was not being speciffic, but being general, which was perhaps my fault.

Exit wound is one thing, getting physically (sp?) blown away is another.

Dog might "deflect or spin" (perhaps), but hey, it was "blown" 10'.

 

[JoeR]

Sigarms:

No B.S. here nor am I going to flame you. I have a police report and one from animal control. I do not work in Law Enforcement, and shoot IPSC/USPSA. My pistol is a Springfield Armory TGO-1. I shoot limited 10, so there are no modifications to my pistol to make it open class. The pistol is far more accurate than my abilities.

You are correct, my wife hesitated since she thought if she wounded the dog she and the baby would still be attacked. In other words she was thinking not shooting. Not sure which is better, but I understood her point. She did not have confidence in her abilities. Stuff like this happens fast, so not sure if the same thing would happen again to her.

Yes, you are correct about a double tap, but this situation was not a pistol competition. So, I was just glad to be able to hit the target not pull the trigger twice. I double tap, but I am always looking for my front site. Double tap is not instinctive for me, maybe it is for you. For me, I shoot for accuracy not speed, and seem to drop my front site on the second tap. So, I slow down for accuracy when in competition. Anyway, I was aiming at a moving target, and really didn't care about center mass. I saw the dog's head in my front site and fired. No time to think about it, or adjust for center mass.

I walked ahead of my wife to draw the dog away from them. Not sure what I was thinking, but I sure didn't think too much. Analyze away, but this is what I did. Not much time to think in these situations, but I do not train for dog attacks either. You are right, it would have been better for me to be between the dog and my wife/baby. But I thought he was coming for me, not them. The dog turned and headed for them. I don't think I could have been quick enough to get between the dog and them.

Yes, the bullet hit the dog behind the ear, and the dog was blown sideways. 6', 10' whatever, I didn't pull out my tape measure to verifiy. I know for sure his legs were pointing away from me when he was on the ground. This means he didn't just fall over, otherwise, his feet would be pointing towards me. A .45 caliber 230gr round has an impact energy of almost 400ft/lbs+. Some is absorbed by tissue, but the rest has to be displaced in some other method. This is not a supersonic round that goes straight through flesh. Once again, I am not an expert on this. Analyze away, but the dog was not in my sights after the first round and he was not in front of my wife either. Maybe something else happended, not sure, but I really didn't care since he was no longer on his feet. Maybe the dog rolled, but he sure did not just fall down where he was at. After the event, I even asked my wife what happened to the dog after I shot, and she didn't see it since her back was to the dog. Although, she did say he was not where he was before I shot, and his feet were point away from me.

Anyway, I think it is good someone asks questions, and I do not take offense to it. I have chatted with Sigarms before and do not take his questions as a flame, and his questions are valid. Ask away Sigarms! What do you not believe? Have I ever posted B.S. before? The dog attack happened on 12/4 at 11:40AM. I did not post about it right away since I just didn't feel like talking about it. It took me a couple of weeks to come to terms about the situation. Not sure why, but the whole thing bothered me for a while.




Joe

 

[YanmarFever]

Joe, you dont have to defend yourself 2x you did the right thing and let it drop at that.
Who cares what others think, (I dont) and I sleep better at night. I only have to please 1 person on this planet and thats my lovely wife, which is the same thing you did.

On Dec. 25 my neighbor had a cougar in his front yard (Its common around here) now everyone is packing a little heat. another neighbor lost a new born calf to the cougar.

Im upgrading from my pea shooter 9mm to the .45 for a while. ..44 is in the shop
Ern.

 

[johnk]

If Joe did something wrong the lawyers or the law would have been knocking on his door, either to pay for Vet Bills or to surrender his weapon.. Good Job Joe... You must've been right.

 

[Syncro]

Interesting thread. My only comment is when the unexpected happens people sometimes don't follow proceedure. I was once confronted by a nasty preditor at nite, point blank range, with no warning. I drew and fired never hearing the muzzel blast or feeling recoil, and not at all handeling the gun as I was trained to do. When the incident was over I was really mad at myself as I knew better, besides that I completely missed the critter who by then was glad as **** to get outta there. The fact that Joe actually hit that dog under those circumstances was probably better than I could do. A whole lot different than the controlled environment of a range or simulated attack. You're alright Joe!

 

[Sigarms]

Joe R. As T.Earnie mentioned, you don't have to defend yourself.

I do appreciate the response thought.

I should not of said "B.S", wrong term on my end. It seems that you really are not sure what happened to the dog after you shot it.

Off of memory, very general. 230gr JHP .45ACP @ 800fps gets you around 350 ft/lbs at muzzel. 185gr .45ACP around 1200fps gets you @ 606 lbs/ft. Pushing it up a notch, a .45-70, 420gr @ 1850fps gets you around 3200 ft/lbs.

Either increase the velocity or weight, you'll increase the ft/lbs (keep in mind, excluding the barrel length and some other factors).

My point is no matter what the ft/lbs, the body will react the same way. The body "absorbs" the energy (shock). Exit wounds are another matter depending on the bullet type.

Since you mentioned to ask questions, what I'm curious about it the angle the dog came at you. I'm figuring 3:00 or 9:00 o'clock. When you left your wife to distract the dog, you put distance between you and your family. The closer the dog got to your family (and yourself being away from the family), the chances are increasing that you put your family in your sight picture when you went to take the dog out.

Armchair quarterbacking I realize, but you could of made a serious mistake.

Bottom line, in the end, I would of made sure the dog was down, period.

To answer your question, no, you never posted B.S before.

 

[JoeR]

Hi Joe,

The dog came from the house and I moved away from my wife. The dog came straight for me from the house. I turned towards the house, so the dog was at my 12 o'clock, and my wife as at 3 to 4 o'clock. I put my hand on my weapon when he went under the fence. The dog then turned just before getting to me and headed for my wife. He was on the pavement, when he turned and most roads are about 12' wide. I think he was about 6 to 8 feet away when he turned. So the dog was going at about a 30-40 degree angle towards my wife from me. When I took aim the dog was about 12:30 to 1 o'clock and I fired when he was around 1 to 2 o'clock. Yes, you are correct, any further, and the dog would have been too close to the family for me to even consider doing anything besides throwing myself on the dog. The round landed behind the dogs ear about 1 to 2 inches back. I can also say, I did not hear the shot, and my ears did not ring either! Another strange effect was that I was real thirsty after that. My mouth was extra dry! I guess adrenaline does that to you.

Anyway, I hope you and your family have a Happy New Year!

Take care,

Joe

 

[TomKioti]

If laws stopped crimes......well, we'd be in a different reality, wouldn't we? Laws punish those who commit crimes. They may act as a deterrent, but I have never heard of any one who has ever been saved from being murdered by reminding their assailant that his/her actions would violate a law. A gun in the hands of the victim would have been far more effective.

I wish with all my heart the above WAS true because I would still have my Father. He was shot in the back of the head for $400.00 by a crack addict at our family business. Since then I have ALWAYS carried a sidearm.

Joe... don't you dare take any crap from some here about what happened. If I could have been there for my Dad like you were my whole life would have been different. You never get over that kind of tragedy. You did the right thing regardless of what some may say. You are a marksmen and you handled the situation like a pro. Thank God.

 

[billbill1]

JoeR, I have a fear of mean dogs and I for one am sorry that this animal survived to do this again. You did the right thing. More people are bitten by dogs that don't bite- than mean ones. Certain breeds are meaner than others but you never know what one is going to do. You protected your family, that's the right thing to do.

 

[dmccarty]

Joe,

Last week, an officer shot a lab in the head but the dog seems to be ok except for a ear ache. The situation sounds similar to yours.

The woman that owns the lab was bitten in the face by the dog when she petted it when it was asleep. It woke up and bit her. She went to the hospital to get fixed up. The hospital reported the dog bite and an officer was sent to the house to see what happened. When the officer got there the dog went after him so he shot the dog in the head. The owners said the dog was tied up. Officer said differently and was just cleared by the Magistrate. The fact that the officer shot the dog in subdivision was not an issue nor should it have been. Just like you situation.

The head is a real poor target since its round and moves around quite a bit. While your shot did not kill the dog it did stop its attack which is what counts.

In my county a year or so ago a deputy was attakced by three pit bulls. She was pretty chewed up. All three dogs where shot multiple times by responding officers but only one died.

One thing that can chase off a dog at night is a Mag Light. I don't mean a whack up side the dogs head though that might work. I had a dog get a bit too close one night. I had my Mag Light, 4 D cells, in my hand so I just pointed it at the dog and flashed the light. That dog yelped, jumped back and ran away.....

Later,
Dan

 

[Pilot]

FWIW, when I was a meter reader, my boss told me that if a dog came after me to shove the meter book toward it and the dog would bite whatever is nearest. Worked when a boxer came after me. Meter book had an aluminum cover and the dog left 2" long teeth marks in it as we fought over it. Attack only lasted a couple seconds before the owner called him off. If she had been another second later, the dog would have been smacked real hard on the snout with my flashlight.

Anyway, the lesson is that if a dog comes at you and you have something in your hand, give it to the dog. Especially if you have a pistol! Might make for a real accurate shot, right down the throat!

 

[JimR]

Nice shooting Joe. Now all you need to do is get a laced steak for the pooch to eat and finish the job before he bites someone else.