saved from injury by tractorbynet

[texastomtom]

Hello guys,

I just want to say thank you to all of you who have posted safety related ( roll over ) information.

I just used my tractor for my first real experience loading dirt up high.

And yes,,, I almost rolled over. Fortunately I did not.
My thanks to you all. Had I not read as much in this forum as to this particular safty issue I probably would have rolled it.

Having read here I was being much more carefull than I otherwise think I would have been. I just should have listened even closer - fortunately I now fully understand just how easy these small tractors can be set askew !!!!

not even a scratch on the tractor. I'll check myself after I get the tractor put away.... lol

THANKS for keeping us amatuers thinking about safety !!!

Besides the Thanks to you all,,, I offer this as advice to any other new tractor owners. BEWARE AND BE SAFE....

/forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif

 

[PineRidge]

Let me be the first to say that I'm glad that you were not hurt.

Can you elaborate and tell us exactly what you did to get into a bad situation in the first place, and what you did to keep you and your tractor safe beyond realizing that things wern't going as originally planned?

Most folks here including myself learn by other members experiences.

 

[Bob_Skurka]

texastomtom, just out of curiosity, what type of equipement were you using? Can you describe what you were doing in more detail? Your profile is not filled out, it would be helpful to others if we at least knew the tractor size, type, age, loader, etc. Also were you on dirt, grass, etc?

 

[texastomtom]

Even the safest looking site can hold danger for the uneducated - ( me )

I thought I had thought of everything. checked for overhead obstructions and wires in the area. Made mental notes of all ground obstacles. Surveyed the area thoroughly. Looked over the lay of the ground. Stay way clear of persons in the area ( yes i had about 40 observers - most busy doing other things I hope )


jd 4720 with 400x loader - both new - strictly operator error - no equipment malfunction involed.
and i expect some harassing on this part - nothing on the back
no ballast etc,,, due to where i was unloading there just was absolutely no extra space for anything on the rear of the tractor.

Totally flat and first packed dirt surface
(part of the reason i was really not expecting rolling being a problem)


Someone else had left a huge pile of fill dirt for me to distribute away from the 'event location'


Simply had driven into pile - filled the bucket
honestly had it raised higher than needed but it was up about 6'.

having filled the bucket I had turned the wheels fully to the right, began to back up - A LITTLE TO QUICKLY
with the load up high, wheels turned sharp, and then perhaps a little to agressive reverse power things did commence to get scary...

Is that descriptive enough.....
I dont really know how close I actually came to tumbling over - but it went far enough to kinda stop and act like it could have gone either way.

I'm not sure if i did the right thing but I immediately dropped the bucket which seemed to be what kept it from going on over and released the reverse pedal.


I wonder if the smaller tractors are even more prone to go over. This thing weighs 3700 lbs without the loader. I dont recall the loader weight but its plenty with a full bucket of moise dirt.

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

oh yea,,, since my tractor wasn't hurt or anything - please feel free to laugh a bit at the amatuer in me..... Sometimes that all you can do - once you catch you breath.

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif

 

[Bird]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I'm not sure if i did the right thing but I immediately dropped the bucket which seemed to be what kept it from going on over and released the reverse pedal. )</font>

You bet you did the right thing!

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( I wonder if the smaller tractors are even more prone to go over )</font>

Yes!

And I'll bet most of us have done about the same thing you did. I did it the day I got my B7100 with a bucketful of gravel. Fortunately, I didn't have it but about 2' off the ground, but it was definitely enough to give me more of a thrill than I wanted. /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[daedong]

Been there to many times /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif

 

[RonR]

I had several "reminders" about FEL with no rear ballast. Several in moving a trailer with the FEL. When you are in 2WD (which I recommend for such stunts), and your progress stops due to one wheel losing traction, you know you screwed up.

I've encountered that more than once.

My standard operation now when using the FEL is to NEVER take my hand off the joystick when moving with a load on or in the FEL. If I need to move my hand, I stop the tractor.............

And I'm almost to the point of NEVER using the FEL without the BB on the back.............

Stay safe,
Ron

 

[texastomtom]

I"ve always had something on the back previous to this event.

And I knew from here that that is the correct practice.
But when you simply cant get where you need to go you tend to make concessions.

I did note right away that it was not completely stable in this configuration but ....................

Live ande Learn and Laugh at your mistakes if you live through them...

 

[Bob_Skurka]

First the spank, you should ALWAYS ballast the tractor, at least with loaded rear tires. Heavy tractors don't have any real advantage over light if the weight is not in the rear. It is my understanding that most tractors are front heavy to begin with (contrary to popular belief) and the FEL exacerbates that problem. LOAD your tires OR use a ballast box, or both.

As for HOW you almost tipped over, I was using a Kubota B2910 with loaded rear tires working on flat smooth asphalt moving some large granite cobblestones. This was 2 summers ago. I had to lift the bucket high enough to clear the mailbox as the pile was on one side and the stones needed to be moved to the other side. I essentially did what you did. Went up on 2 wheels, my butt puckered so much that the tractor seat is still deformed, but the bucket slammed down while I turned the wheel and the tractor came back down on all four tires.

Now for the confession of stupid me. Using the TC24, which doesn't have loaded tires, I did not bother to put an implement or the ballast box on either . . . after dinner I had one small pile of dirt to move, it was about equal to a bucketload. Well it was a big bucketload, heaped up, but the loader easily lifted it. So I took off across the reasonably flat area with the overstuffed bucket and came to the dip at the road. I was driving too fast and as the tractor went down the dip the rear wheels all of a sudden got really light. I don't think they ever came off the ground, but it sure got tippy feeling. And I needed to get down the road about 400 feet and then drop 15' down a steep slope to the valley. I figured I'd go for it, all turned out well, I went slow, bucket at about an inch above the ground as I decended that slope, but all the while I knew I was doing something that was basically risky. I should have used the other tractor, it was ballasted, but I didn't. Like I said, I am stupid too. But I guess I had enough hours under my belt that I made a calculated choice this time. I got lucky.

 

[texastomtom]

I filled out the profile,

Seems like I enjoy this place so I will be around a while .

If you want details on equipment I listed most of it there.

 

[beenthere]

"" <font color="blue"> I immediately dropped the bucket which seemed to be what kept it from going on over </font> ""

Sure did the right thing by lowering the bucket. And it is sometimes counter to what the instinct might tell you. As you see the loader/bucket drop (because the rear wheel is coming up) it sometimes is instinct to 'raise' on the bucket causing more of a problem. But when losing traction on the rear end because of no ballast, lowering the bucket to get the load back onto the rear wheels is the absolute right thing to do. That is a good 'habit' to get under your skin. It may come in handy if you are going down a hill, with a bucket full, and start to slip. You can't use the rear brakes, nor the back pressure on the engine, nor will 4wd help. The only solution is to drop the bucket and get the load on the ground so all the other things can work the way they are supposed to work.

 

[OkieG]

My very first tractor experience:

A friend dropped off his new shiny JD 755 (~20hp) with FEL at my house, and gave only basic instuctions before he left. He loaned it so I could move a dump truck load of dirt from the roadside to the veggie garden by the house. I filled that bucket and raised it plenty high, so as not to hit anything that might be in the way. Went about 10' and started to tip. I stopped the tractor right away and luckily the tractor righted itself. My heart was in my throat. Once that happens, it's hard to forget the feeling.

I'm glad your experience had a good outcome.

OkieG

 

[shoppintractors]

<font color="blue"> It is my understanding that most tractors are front heavy to begin with (contrary to popular belief) </font>

If tractors are front heavy then why are the large tires on the rear and not the front? I think that depends on the tractors rear end components. Aluminum or Cast Iron...

Don

 

[Bob_Skurka]

Don, nothing to really do with cast iron or aluminum. Please realize that a tractor with a cast iron rear end probably has a cast iron front end, and probably a cast iron bell housing and cast iron everything in between and most of that is actually up front forward of the operator. . . a tractor with an aluminum rear end probably has an aluminum front end and ladder frame holding it all together.

Modern CUTs really are of traditional design are designed primarily for the purpose of attaching something BIG and HEAVY on the 3pt hitch. A modern CUT looks an awful lot like a 1950's Ford. When you attach something like a rotary cutter, tiller, BB, etc to the rear end, then the rear tires begin to get a really good grip, but the little CUTs are mostly 4x4 tractors. Granted the modern CUT is typically smaller than a 50's farm machine, but the rear wheels are MUCH smaller in scale and the front tires actually are slighly larger than the 50's tractors (in overall proportion, not in actual size, remember that most CUTs are scaled down versions of the old style machines). But the little tractors many of us play with are still designed pretty much the same way. There is virtually no overhang beyond the rear axle, the engine sits pretty far forward, in many cases the operator sits directly above or slightly forward of the rear axle housing. The operator platform is basically open air space with a seat so there is virtually no weight there at all (other than the operator) and then the weight of the rear end.

On various machines, some have engines over the front axle, some slightly moved back but still primarily over the front end with the battery stuffed right behind the grillwork. The fuel tank on many brands is also over the engine, and the fuel and the engine are both pretty heavy components. Compare that to a modern car, the engines on many now sit just behind the front axle, the fuel is in the back end, the idea is to get as close to 50/50 weight distribution for enhanced performance in corners.

Now throw a FEL on the tractor and all of a sudden the dynamics really shift to the front end putting as much as 75% of the weight forward. With a loaded bucket, that number can easily reach 110% and tip the tractor on its nose, hence the need for ballast. I have one tractor with a cast iron build and one that is ladder frame, the cast iron unit is about 15" shorter LOA, 6" narrower but weighs nearly as much as the larger tractor, both need ballast to safely operate the FEL. You'd actually think the smaller heavier unit would be safe to operate without ballast, but I almost put it on its nose Tuesday night because I was rushing through something and didn't toss a ballast box or implement on the back end (tires are NOT loaded on that tractor because I want it light for many of my uses). Ballast, or counter weight is necessary regardless of if the tractor is cast iron or aluminum/ladder construction.

 

[bandit67]

I learned a lesson about 14 years ago, in my early 20's, with the unbalasted rear of a tractor. I was working at one of my dad's houses, that I was living in as a renter at the time, and decided to move a large boulder. I picked it up with the bucket, and almost immediately, the weight of the rock picked the back end up until the loader was back on the ground, and I'm sitting in the seat, with the rear tires a good 3 feet off the ground.

It's probably been a good 12 years since I've operated a tractor between that little Yanmar and my new machine. Between that reminder, and all the constant warnings on TBN, I find myself always with my hand on the joystick - and last week, I had to drop the bucket a few times as I was tearing out trees by pushing them partway over until the roots broke, then grabbing the tree by the branches and backing up to pull them all the way over (all due to space constraints). A few times the trees weren't completely broken free, and upon backing up with the toothbar locked into the branches up high, the back end started to raise, even with the implement on the back. So down went the bucket very quickly, and problem avoided.

I agree - everyone talking about this stuff constantly, helps us to stay more aware, and although we may try mildly stupid things, we are aware enough to have a pre-planned quick way out of trouble.

 

[KiotiJohn]

I don't tend ever to laugh at others' misfortune regardless of whether they should have known better or not, so no laughs here. I also have no need to tell you what you've already learned and reinforced through experience. Just know that we've all had to learn and now you have. John

 

[mark777]

Would like to share this: Assumption is what almost - and I mean real close, almost got me. Rented from a friend in the business, a skid steer (Bob Cat) loader to move pond clay and crushed concrete. I assumed that the heavy duty counter weighted body was enough for any load the bucket could hold.
Also belted in a cage, I was safe with my seat belt firmly in place.
Working on flat ground (few dips, etc) I grab a full bucket and backed out at 4' off the ground. I went down SO FAST and forward and then on my side. I was a marble in a shoebox, even with seatbelt.
Called my friend at the rentals place (he was glad that I was ok) arranged for HD wrecker to pull it right side up ($$$) no damage to the Bobcat. All said and done, I recall him saying "I assumed" you knew what you were doing. That was 3 years ago. I have never forgotten that and take plenty of time when I use my FEL on my other tractors. Regards, Mark

 

[keeney]

<font color="green"> Simply had driven into pile - filled the bucket
honestly had it raised higher than needed but it was up about 6'.
</font>

That is another no-no. Driving around with the bucket up in the air. Even an empty bucket on my little 4100 with full ballast on the rear makes me nervous to move around at any kind of speed when its raised above a few feet.

Carrying the bucket down a few inches off the ground makes things feel (and probably really are) a lot, lot, lot less tippy. Even if it tips forward, there is nowhere for it to go - the bucket hits the ground.

Thats one of the main reasons I wish my little 410 loader had more roll-back, so I can carry a full bucket at the lowest possible height without spilling so much on the down-hill portions of a transfer.

Another way to think about why ballast is so important is imagine a teeter-totter pivoting on the front axle. As a rough guess, take half the weight of the un-ballasted tractor as being on the rear axle. half of 3700 lbs is 1850lbs. On the other side, take the lift capacity of the loader (I would guess over 2000 lbs for the 4720?). Ignore the empty loader itself as being mostly balanced over the front axle.

Put 2000 lbs of dirt in the bucket out front and your teeter-totter is already heavier on the bucket end of the equation. Only the longer distance to the rear axle is saving you. Add some inertia, and the chances of tipping over go up quickly!

- Rick

 

[keeney]

Oh, and another issue - even with the ballast, tipping to the side is still something to worry about if you hit a hole or ride one wheel up on a big rock or something. Especially when running on a side-slope.

Again, carrying the load as low-slung as possible makes the combination a lot more stable.

I even keep my 3-pt ballast block as low as possible - maybe 4 to 6" off the ground, only raising it when I have a ground-clearance issue going up the start of an incline or something.

- Rick

 

[MikePA]

<font color="blue"> honestly had it raised higher than needed but it was up about 6'. </font>
Tom, glad you are alright. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

What circumstances caused the bucket to be this high in the air in the first place? I can understand circumstances requiring raising it this high before dumping the FEL, but not when filling it.