Satoh S630D Runs Away!

[jpscotty21]

Hello All, new to the forum and new to the Satoh world as well. I just picked up this ol' girl yesterday. Had been sitting in a barn for 10 years. The gentleman said that it belonged to his brother in-law who bought it new in the early 80's. Looks clean for its age, has almost 3800 hours on the clock. Supposedly they had new rings and rods done way back when before it got put up. It was strictly used for mowing as far as he knew.

Today I replaced the fuel lines along with a new settlement bowl, fresh fuel, bleed everything, had the battery charging since the night before. Gave her an official start crank and she started smoking immediately which was a pleasant relief. But, it sounded like one of the cylinders had low compression. Unfortunately I fried the glow plugs by accidentally leaving the key in the wrong position for a couple of hours the night before and did the same thing this morning. The glow indicator doesn't work and the PO by passed it. :mur: So I got my heat gun and aimed it down the throat of the intake and gave it another try.... OFF SHE GOES! I scrambled around to smother the intake quickly as I was prepared for a possible run away. I couldn't get it to respond no matter where the fuel lever is position up on the engine itself. I smothered the intake and allowed enough air for it to run slowly to warm up, after a bit I let it go and she got up to about 2600 rpm's, top operating speed according to specs. So I'm not sure what to pull off to look at what's stuck. Do these have a fuel rack or is it controlled through the governor? I guess on the left side where the fuel lever goes into the housing is where I need to explore? Its an odd setup that the fuel lever is on the left side of the engine and the injection pump is on the right? I'm guessing that's the governor on the left side. Anyone familiar with the fuel system on these things?

Bad news is I confirmed cylinder one is not firing and looks to have a blown head gasket. After messing with it some and she got warmed up, I was trying to determine the bad cylinder while it was running about mid speed. Next thing I know there's a 20ft anti-freeze geyser shooting from the rad (has wrong radiator cap). Shut it down and after everything clears and defogging my glasses, I saw and smelled just a whiff steam coming out from the intake. Tried it a couple more times and same results, steady gurgle when at idle after its warm and starts blowing over as the rpm raises. Also sounds like the intake valve may be sticking or is stuck on that same cylinder, it's popping the compression out of the intake fairly loudly. Other bad thing is that if you remove the oil cap while it's running and smothered, it takes off again. So its pulling a vac on the crankcase through what i'm assuming is the bad cylinder because of the stuck valve. Hope it's not too severe. Not hearing any knocking, clattering or any odd noises like something came loose. Hopefully just a bad head gasket and I don't mind doing some rings. Won't be looking forward to any machine work if required. Runs like a well lubed sewing machine overall though. Oil looks good and no signs of water or raw fuel. Didn't see any silver showing in the oil either, but I'll confirm that when I drain it. Sorry for the long post, but figured I would share my first start of this adventurous experience. I'm waiting for a shop manual but in the mean time i'm going to make a spot in the garage to start digging in. I'll post some pics of my progress along the way here shortly for those needing this kind of info. Hopefully I'll have some up tomorrow. Thanks y'all! :thumbsup:

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Welcome

Sounds like you like adventures.

Keep us posted.

 

[jpscotty21]

Thanks Gale, I have had my share at my young age. What would life be without adventures? Hope someone that's been in one of these will chime in here before long. Plan to get a spot cleared to park her and start digging in tomorrow. Goodnight Y'all!

 

[jpscotty21]

Good Morning guys and gals! I realized I'm going to have to "drive" this beast into the operating room. Problem is, i'm by myself out here. So if anyone has an idea that may be simple to unseize whatever it is that's fueling it to full speed I would really appreciate it. I'll be cleaning up the area this morning, so I got some time. I would rather get it under control before making the delicate move. The front tires are shot and i'm in a tight spot. So I'm having to take my time but, with the speed out of control and the coolant boiling out, it won't take long for it to over heat. Thanks again!

 

[lens12]

I'd guess the injector pump is sticking. I had this happen with an Iseki that had been sitting for a while. Had the pump rebuilt.

 

[jpscotty21]

Thanks for the response Lens. Do you think the problem may very well be in the IP itself? I'm not familiar with the pumps on these two cylinders. I'm working on getting some pics up in a moment. Thanks again!

 

[jpscotty21]

She's ready for some paint, but I think she'll do fine if I get'er up and going. Forgot to mention all the gears, ranges, pto, and hydraulics seem to be working and are sound. Just difficult to drive running on one tired cylinder.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

I'd guess the injector pump is sticking. I had this happen with an Iseki that had been sitting for a while. Had the pump rebuilt.

If possible I would run it on heavy Seafoam mixture if not pure for a few minutes and shut down. After doing it twice a day for a week you could test run again.

 

[jpscotty21]

I'll give that a try and might put something in the oil change, like marvel mystery. I'm killing some time waiting on a part to move the other project out of the way. Should be able to move the tractor in tonight to start tearing it down. I played around with it some more and it fired right off with the heat gun. I realized I had another moment. The vacuum in the crank case was from the valve cover vent connected to the intake horn. When I smothered it, it drew through there. So did another check and no blow by what so ever, just a small even pulse as expected. In fact after letting run slow for awhile and keeping a close eye on the temp, it started smoothing out on that one cylinder quit a bit. Clean black smoke from the lack of air of course. No white smoke or oil burning at all. I went ahead and let it go again and I it appears the governor might be working. It went up to about 2700rpms then came down and settled right on 2500rpms. I tried putting a load on it by driving in a low gear and it seems to respond. After it started to get a bit warm I could hear the other cylinder start hitting randomly. I couldn't see much smoke, maybe a grey haze at full speed. Couldn't catch anything that indicated the other cylinder was firing off. The moment the cylinder started hitting the coolant began rolling over with violent air pockets. Sounds like it may just be the head gasket causing the lack of compression. The popping I heard from the intake has quieted a lot and goes away completely at a higher running speed. So the valve must be freeing up as well.

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Sounds like you are making progress. I have just started playing around with Marvel Mystery Oil myself but have been into SeaFoam in a major way since 2006 when I bought the 2002 Blazer with 102K miles on it. The local shop would not schedule me an appointment until after I ran a can of SeaFoam through the gas tank. The guy who has known me all of his life and our dads had worked together knew if my issues were just from a dirty fuel system/engine that I would be fine after the SeaFoam use and was. That sold me hard on SeaFoam.

The MMO testing has impressed me and should help free up any sticking valve, etc from build up setting for year.

While we had the 2002 Polaris 325 Magnum ATV in a non running state most all summer mainly due to having the fuel tank removed to adjust valves and replace rubber items we filled the crankcase with Marvel Mystery Oil to the full mark. We made up a loop of clear hose between the IN/OUT nipples on the base of the oil filter that go to the oil cooler, replaced the oil filter and flushed out the remaining motor oil in the oil pump system before completing the loop of clear hosing so no old oil was left anywhere. For weeks with the spark plug removed and carb off we would spin it for about 30 seconds with the starter each morning and evening on most days. For a few days before we started that we had the cylinder filled with MMO but the first time was with Sea Foam. I would sometimes forget to pull the plug and some would get pushed out the valves by the starter motor.

After about a month the MMO became more dull in color, not dark but just lost it bright clear red appearance. With the valve adjuster caps removed we could watch the MMO pumping and flowing back down into the crank case from the oil pressure created from starter only freely spinning the engine with the spark plug pulled.

By pumping the pure MMO through the ring grooves and all oil passages should have soften and flushed hard crud build up from over the years I hope. I had read many engines smoke/burn oil due to dirty ring groves causing the rings to stick in the groves leading to blow by. I read diesel engines with glow plugs are not too hard to get MMO, etc into the cylinders to soak the ring groves.

WARNING: We have to remember if an engine hits and a compressing cylinder is hydro locked something very important in the engine will break often. On a gas engine with no spark it may just lock the starter motor. Removing injectors in an old diesel engine can be a major task to add MMO I am sure.

You can soak your rings/ring groves while you have the head pulled. Keep us posted on what you find when you have it opened up.

 

[jpscotty21]

Thanks Gale, sounds like a toss up, maybe MMO in the crank case and SeaFoam through the fuel system? We'll see what we're dealing with for sure to make a game plan. Just shut down for the night. Finally got the other project running and moved out. Decided to clean up the garage before moving her in place. Did y'all know that it's an EXTREMELY hard task moving it with two shot front tires? I thought i wouldn't make it there in time before it starting getting to hot. I was tempted to just cut the darn things off to ride on the rims!

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Hey that is a nice looking tractor from that shot.

 

[jpscotty21]

Yeah, I forgot to mention that I cleaned her up a bit. I don't like working anything caked in gunk and grease. Quick question, I noticed that i'm missing some bolts on both sides of the frame where it mounts on the engine block. Looks like they came loose and a couple came out and one was sheared. So I only have one of three bolts holding each side. :shocked: Would it be okay to have them drilled, tapped, and helicoiled in the cast iron block?

 

[jpscotty21]

Well we're a little slow here at the shop so starting doing some research. I asked a buddy who has a fab shop next door about the bolts. He would just drill and tap them in the next size up, no point in using helicoils. Got a shop manual on order from Bill today for a very reasonable price. He had a few tips but he's inclined to say that the injection pump is seizing from sitting. Worse case is it will have to be rebuilt. If I can't find a trust worthy dealer here, Bill said they can do it if I ship up to him. I was shocked how expensive the head gaskets are, I found one from an online parts store for $65 shipped for the ke130 specifically. Most other tractor part places want $150 not including shipping! Unless
their is a significant difference in quality, fit, or something I would understand but still. Anyway, I'll have the house to myself for awhile tonight, so i'm pretty anxious to start digging in but I'm scared of what I'll find. Will post some pics tonight! Does anyone know a rule of thumb on how much clearance there should be between the piston and cylinder? What to check the wear and tear while i'm that deep in. If not then I'll wait til the book gets in to see if it has the specs.

 

[jpscotty21]

Well it was exactly what I didn't want it to be but it is what it is.



Looks like its not just a head gasket. Rings are toasted. At first I couldn't see anything on the head gasket, then I could see a very tight path that went literally through the middle of the gasket to the front left water jacket. It was interesting to see that it left the top and bottom of the gasket intact. It also looks like the PO also caught on to it being a head gasket issue. Found lots of gunk like someone poured liquid glass or something in the coolant. Lots of corrosion set in and it did a number on the thermostat housing. No wonder it may have had a sticking valve! Lot's of carbon build up and a little rust forming up top on the valve train. Won't know how bad shape the bores are until I get my book for numbers. Roughly it has about 0.080" of space between the piston and wall using the rule of thumb with a feeler gauge. But I'll check it with a bore gauge for final numbers. Hope the pics aren't to big...

 

[Gale Hawkins]

Bet they did not change the oil every year and antifreeze every two years.

I will be interested to know if the rings are compressed and frozen in place by carbon build up. Was there any ring grove. If not it may be mainly a ring issue.

Bet the inside of the engine will look cleaner soon.

 

[jpscotty21]

Updated the head gasket pic with a better explanation. Bores are clean, no scuffs or scoring, no signs of heat stress. I can physically move the pistons around. Looks like the cause as you mentioned was negligence on the oil changes. Took a look again and the fact the cylinder 2 is still firing in the shape it's in, I may be able to get away with some quick honing, rings and bearings if needed while their off. I don't expect to run the tractor thousands of hours a year. It took me at least three years to accumulate 280 hours on my 790 JD using it fairly often until the last year. This engine is really disgusting inside all over. :yuck: I can tell it's been apart once before, they guy did say they did do rings way back when supposedly.

 

[jpscotty21]

Sorry guys, basically it's time to play the waiting game. Got the shop book on the way, and got a cylinder bore gauge ordered, need to get a battery for my caliper. These next few days are going to be long at the shop, so no time to play. Figured this will be a good time to start letting all the parts start soaking in the washer while we wait. I'm going to go experiment using seafoam in my parts washer. I've been using diesel as a solvent because it's cheap, it works, and it's easy to recycle. So I figure why not get a fresh 5 gallons tomorrow and mix in a full dose of seafoam and see what happens? I'll keep a close eye on all the parts during this time. It seems that Seafoam is a little more aggressive than MMO. I think MMO would work great for long term engine oil maintenance treatment but, seafoam looks to work a bit more aggressively and quicker. Guess is a good engine flushing method. Although they claim you can leave seafoam in the oil until the next change interval as the same with MMO if you follow the directions. Will keep y'all posted!

 

[jpscotty21]

Just a quick update. Got the bottom end opened up this evening. A bit of sludge as expected. The bad cylinder, piston, lower rod bearing, and journal looked good and clean. The other was overall the same but the lower rod bearing looked like it lost oil pressure at some point. Journal looked okay, just barely feel any groves, still as shiny as the other. The bearing however, looks like it got scorched and got chewed into a bit. I'm wondering if something may have plugged the oil passage. I tried blowing compressed air through them but didn't seem like it was going anywhere. Will have to investigate some more. Pics coming soon!

 

[jpscotty21]

Sorry I haven't had time to post anything. Things are getting hectic at the shop. Preparing to close down in a couple of weeks so, we're scrambling to get our shop cleared out in time. Anyway, just to update my last post, oil passages are good. Now that I have my Shop Manual in hand, I found out the oil passages are independent from each other. Blowing through the oil filter return confirmed that the main passages are clear. So, if anyone finds this, I'll be more than happy to share my manual if you need some specs. VERY helpful and extremely detailed. I plan on reviving some dead unanswered threads I came across that I can post the specifics for to help others along the way. I may even scan it in to convert it into PDF. I recorded and crunched some numbers on the bores and the conclusion is the engine is pretty worn out. From a professional stand point, it should be sent off and have new liners pressed in and completely gone through. Problem is, the cylinder liners are very expensive. They no longer carry anything in an oversize, otherwise, I would just have it bored over. So once the liners are worn that's it, they're done, unless you find some matching parts. I decided to go ahead and risk it and just push forward with some deglazing and no machine work. Who knows, it could last a long time if taken care of before needing a proper, complete overhaul. I didn't hear any piston slap, which is my concern at this point. For parts, I HIGHLY RECOMMEND looking up NCW Tractor first for any of your tractor parts needs. I was quoted over $600 for Rod Bearings, Pistons Rings, head gasket, T-Stat Housing, T-Stat, and Rad Cap. NCW was able to get me everything except the T-stat housing for less than half that amount with 2 day shipping. Head gasket was only $57 versus $149 at some places. I have a business neighbor that is going to make up a new T-stat housing from aluminum for me. I have been taken pics along the way, just haven't had the time or energy to get them edited and posted. I plan to start the reassembly tonight, only part i'm really waiting on is the water pump. Should be in today or tomorrow. Radiator is ready to be picked up from being cleaned and repaired. I also pulled out the cute little injection pump, over the weekend. The governor was a bit stiff but after cleaning and soaking the whole engine inside and out in WD-40 it freed up nicely. The injection pump was the primary culprit for the runaway. The fuel rack was stuck wide open. With some thumb pressure it popped free and is working as it should now. Cleaned it up and soaked it in WD-40 and it's now smoother than glass. The head came out okay, still had some rust under the soot on the upper end, but most of the harden carbon had come off. I'll try to get some pics up and maybe a first start video up this weekend. :thumbsup: