Rural life is changing

cowboydoc · Aug 15, 2001

Lonestar,
You seem to miss the fact here that what is happening is not in the interest of growth or anything positive. If people would come in and leave things the way they were then fine. The 200 acres that I own I'm currently in court over. A few years ago I bought this ground and payed $600 an acre for it. It's hills and mostly just pasture. Well the last few years they put in a subdivision on the back of one part of this land. This last year the county raised my assessed value from $480 an acre to $10,000 an acre!!! Their feeling was that lots were selling for a 1/4 acre for $20,000 in the subdivision so this land must be worth at least that undeveloped. To say the least my property went from a value of about $100k to $2,000,000. Their response was that the new taxes wouldn't go into effect until 2004 so I had plenty of time to sell the ground! This kind of insanity is what I'm talking about. The county wants more money for roads, etc. etc. so they just keep raising values or changing the rules to fit them.

Bird I know that there isn't anything you can do about it but it would just be nice if when people moved in to an area they had respect for the people that were already there. I know that you can't stop progress but it would be nice to at least keep the ways of life the same.

GlueGuy · Aug 15, 2001

Richard,

It's that kind of nonsense that started Prop 13 out here. If you pay $600 for an acre, then that's what it's worth. They can't re-assess until it's sold again.

We also have a thing called Williamson Act. It's been around for a long time out here. The intent is to preserve rural and farm land through tax incentives. The idea is that they reduce your tax liability (something like 50%, but I don't know the exact number), in exchange for you not developing the property.

Now the tax is not removed, but deferred in perpetuity. Perpetuity ends when you decide you want to develop. You then must cough up the deferred tax. Since our property has been in Williamson Act for 26 years, the deferred tax is getting pretty impressive now.

The GlueGuy

cowboydoc · Aug 15, 2001

Glue Guy,
I wish we had that here. These guys are just insane running the county here. The problem is most of the voting populution is for it because then they can sell their house for more or borrow more against it. The valuation around here though is like the stock market it has to be headed for a crash. Property values have gone up 35% here in just the last three years. It's just not right. I told the county assessor at the last meeting if he thought it was worth that I'd sell it to him for half of that or anyone else on the board. Of course there were no takers. There is no way I can sell that land for that kind of money. We have four developers who we got affadavits from as well and all of them said it was also insane. I'm pretty sure we're going to win this but it's going to cost me a bunch in lawyer fees.

Anonymous Poster · Aug 15, 2001

Cowboydoc,

Man, I wish I had your problems! I never seem to be smart enough to buy property that appreciates like that. Isn't this appreciation the good side of all those folks moving in? I understand it means higher taxes and fighting the appraisal board for a sane assessment, but the payoff down the road can be huge. I also understand that you may not care about any of that, and just want to live there the rest of your life with low taxes and no Starbucks or Home Depot next door. And yes, it would be nice if the folks moving in did have some innate respect for the locals. Unfortunately though, many times the folks moving in have a condescending attitude toward either the less affluent or local ways.

Lonestar

cowboydoc · Aug 15, 2001

Lonestar,
You miss the point. IT"S NOT WORTH THAT! If I could sell it for 2 million I would sell it today, quit my practice and move home. Like I said I talked to four developers and none of them would give me over a $1000 an acre for it. That wouldn't net me much as I've put about $40,000 into the property improving it!!! We've talked to and gotten depositions from 10 different real estate agents and the most that they would even list it for would be $2500 an acre. I really wish I could get that money out of it. If I could I wouldn't be so dang mad.

bpence · Aug 15, 2001

Oh, he speaks the truth all right. One of these days I suppose it will be time to pack everything up and move someplace where there's a more rural environment than we're seeing around home right now. And to tell the truth, I'll probably try and get every possible penny for my place, any way I possibly can.

Bob Pence

MarkV · Aug 15, 2001

Doc,

I guess it is the same everywhere these days. This last weekend I was in Illinois for a family gathering on the old famliy farm. My Mother was raised there and a cousin of mine now owns the place. If I remember right, he has about 250 acres, comes from a farming background and wants to farm, but you can't make a living on that much land with corn and beans. My Grandfather bought the farm in 1832 and died on his Oliver tractor there. My cousin leases out his land to another farmer and is worried about how long he can hold on to it, as the taxes go up. You have to wonder where our Grandkids will get their food. It sure will not be from the small family farmer.

MarkV

GlueGuy · Aug 15, 2001

<font color=blue>The problem is most of the voting populution is for it because then they can sell their house for more</font color=blue>

Prop 13 doesn't prevent that; check out bay area property prices. We've probably got the most outragious property prices in the country. I know I couldn't afford to buy my own place these days.

The GlueGuy

gordon · Aug 15, 2001

Richard, all I can say is I hope you WIN!!! The way the counties and state is looking at alot of properties and businesses is complete %$%$###. If you know what I mean. I could agree if your property was already subdivided into lots and improvements had been done so those lots were accessable. Meaning roads and electric. But if not then they are dead wrong and don't really have a leg to stand on.

Is anyone else having the same problem as you? It should have happened across the board. The tax increase that is.

When I worked in MD at a marina they had the great idea to redue the whole tax scheme in their favor. It didn't matter if a slip was rented or not they assessed it as rented and at a more than crazy rate. Same with motel rooms. Their point was they weren't making enough just off of the property. The taxes on that marina went from $7000. a year to over $32000. per year. If that isn't crazy I don't know what is. So all the marina owners got together and fought it. It helped but still skyrocketed. Crazy. It really hurt business for quite some time because alot of that cost was passed onto the slip renters. What did they do---move their boats to other locations.

The best thing that I've seen is farmland was rezoned and subdivided into large lots at the beach. That farmer made a killing on the property. So the farmer next door wanted to do the same thing and the zoning board wouldn't let him. Didn't know the right people or grease the right palms. His couldn't get rezoned so what did he do. Waited until almost all of the very lush custom homes were built and instead of corn---He started raising PIGS, boy was that a sight and a smell as well. Told the zoning board you wanted me to have a farm well I do now. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Now to DE taxes aren't bad at all here so far. Knock on wood. But development is moving in quickly in some areas. The beaches are getting the worst of it now and hopfully it will stay that way but I know it's only time. People from the western shore and from Jesrsey, PA area are moving in quickly buying small parcels of land because of the low cost compared to where they are from. It's the same all over in that respect.

It's what they do once they get here is what bothers me at times. Some are great people just happy to be alive and have a place in the country and others are just butt heads. No better word for it, they need to leave the city attitude in the city. Times a changin not always for the better, but we can hope!

Gordon

gordon · Aug 15, 2001

Yup it happens all the time, let the farm go for taxes or sell for decent money. HUmmm which choice would you make?

Gordon

Boondox · Aug 15, 2001

In Vermont, till the 60's, the law of the land was "One Village, One Vote." But then it was ruled unconstitutional and voting was capitation based like everywhere else. The problem is that Chittenden County, where Burlington is located, has more votes than the rest of the state combined. Since Burlington is now populated mostly from people who came from elsewhere and who have the big city needs, as Burlington goes so goes the state. It's like the rest of us have no say at all. There was talk of denying the vote in local affairs till you lived here five years (and hopefully got acclimated in the meantime), but that's just wishful thinking.

The relative difficulty of business travel to and from Vermont has slowed growth somewhat, but all we can hope for is the newcomers act intelligently. Example: keep a few trees in place to break up the outline of your prize home instead of cutting them all down so your home sticks out like a pus colored carbuncle.

Pete

www.GatewayToVermont.com

glennmac · Aug 15, 2001

I have lived all over the USA in many different environments from big city to suburbs to small town to country. Country is the best, and I sympathize with everyone's sentiments. But you're all just shouting into a hurricane unless you stop population growth. And I bet you wouldn't like the effective alternatives to accomplish that.

cowboydoc · Aug 15, 2001

Gordon,
I cleared alot of the ground and planted grass for pasture. I put in two ponds because the runoff was so bad it was destroying the little bit of topsoil that was left. Terraced some of it too to control runoff and had a well drilled on it so I could water the livestock and ran power to it. Other than that the only roads are the trails made by the cattle!!! They've raised everybodies and alot of people are fighting it. Mine is one of the worst. What is so stupid about this whole thing is that my property isn't even zoned for residential or commercial. It's strictly agriculture which means you can't even build on it if it's less than 40 acres. We brought this up to the assessor and he said he had talked to the zoning board and all we had to do was file the papers and they would rezone it residential. In his own words he told us at a meeting that that's what that property could be worth if the right person had it. That's when I told him to buy it! They are basing property on what it could be worth not what it actually is. Problem is they just don't care. If you fight it the county just pays for their lawyers and such so no incentive for them not to raise the values. Pretty sad that the people that are supposed to be working for the people are always working against the people.

skent · Aug 16, 2001

And if you do win the appeal to the assessment this time, they (the tax office) will come through in 3 years and up your value again anyway! (if it's like here in MD). Back in 88 we fought what we considered too high a tax value. Took lots of time and money. We won (somewhat). Three years later when the tax boys came around again, we ended up in worse shape than we were before.

Steve

Boondox · Aug 16, 2001

The wife and I are doing our part! Met relatively late in life, so decided to raise dogs instead of kids. Might add a couple of pigs and goats next year.

Pete

www.GatewayToVermont.com

Bird · Aug 16, 2001

Steve, I think that's a fairly common thing. Even back in the '60s in Anchorage, my dad appealed the assessment on his house there, telling them he'd be glad to sell it to anyone who wanted it for the assessed value; no takers, but he still lost the appeal. And in '88, I appealed my assessment in Dallas (actually had the house up for sale at the time). I guess you could say I "sorta" won; they lowered the assessment 5%, and when I actually sold it, it was for 13% less than the lowered assessment./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif

Bird

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 16, 2001

Cowboydoc

Does your mailing address match the property address? Efffectively making you a local? Does the local government have designs on your land? I have long suspected that taxes are a way of grabbing land that the government wants or wants in "local" hands. I have noticed assessments on lots around here sometimes are quite high on properties owned by people from certain cities or areas. Chicago, being one. For instance, Black Acre is assessed at $500.00. White Acre, right next door and essentially identical is assessed at $1,000.00. Black Acre is owned by a local or someone from someplace no one every heard of. White Acre's owner has a Chicago address.

SHF

cowboydoc · Aug 16, 2001

SHF,
Actually the property we are contesting is about three miles from where I live. It's still in the same county as my physical address but it's under the corporation name. They knew it was me though because they send all the info. to my house and the assessors assistant is one of my patients. I don't think they have designs on it but there are alot of politics going on here as well. The county wanted a new courthouse and the voters shut them down on that. Right after that failerd for the third time you saw another huge increase in property values.

StoneHeartFarm · Aug 16, 2001

Cowboydoc

Corporation name, eh? It's not uncommon for business property to be assessed higher than property owned by individuals. Maybe they figure a medical corporation can afford to pay?

SHF

cowboydoc · Aug 16, 2001

SHF,
Great points although it's not a medical corporation. All the farmers around here are all corporate as well with the exception of a few. Also it's not classified as commercial property it's still classified as agriculture ground and around here that is where the tax base comes from as far as to what the ground is zoned as. If that 2 mill. assessment stands the taxes would be about $3,000 a month!