Rollover paranoia

[jyoutz]

Those who've been to eastern PA know our roads have zero shoulders, the white line of the lane you're driving is as often half on the grass as it is fully on asphalt, and grass and shrubbery growing out of the roadside drainage ditches is often encroaching onto the roadway.

Our townships can never keep up fully, but what they use to keep this grass and vegetation as clear as possible is a sickle bar mower that sticks way off the side of their tractors, so they can keep the tractor fully on the road while mowing roadside grass and shrubs. Something like this:

https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256806801812427.html?src=bing&aff_short_key=UneMJZVf&aff_platform=true&isdl=y&albch=shopping&acnt=135095331&isdl=y&albcp=554961410&albag=1299623884422788&slnk=&trgt=pla-4584826057675486&plac=&crea=81226547867988&netw=o&device=c&mtctp=e&utm_source=Bing&utm_medium=shopping&utm_campaign=PA_Bing_PLA_US_PC_ALL_20240528_AESupply&utm_content=All&utm_term=offset%20mower%203-point&msclkid=39c8ba6819a31030bac6dcca5955ac9a&gatewayAdapt=glo2usa

That’s a good solution. Where I live, they have a rotary cutter mounted on an arm that extends to the side. Those machines must have a lot of ballast.

 

[Panik]

So I've owned our current property for about 10 years now and have only ever owned a BX (12 years). Property is up on an old terraced clay ridge and about 4 1/2 acres are "yard" with the rest being pretty well sloped forest re-growth.

The two biggest observations I've made with respect to roll-overs and operating on slopes are:

- Even though its rarely ever truly an observable change, enough rain driven run-off occurs during the winter that mowing and/or running the tractor is almost an entirely new experience every spring in terms of what feels/is actually safe to operate on (bumps, divots, slope angles, etc)

- This past spring and after 10 years I finally reached a point where I had decided I was either going to add wheel spacers or fill the rears on my BX as a start to ameliorating some of my safety concerns over operating on my property. Ended up filling the tires as a first step due to still having some concerns over the increased axle strain of wheel spacers.

Anywho....despite it being the better part of year since filling the rears, and objectively knowing I have a safer operating platform - My personal pucker-inclinometer still has yet to recalibrate to how the tractor feels with added weight. I'm guessing it's because of the lack of cushion in the tires, but everything feels more magnified with the rears filled and I'm apt to take everything much slower and more carefully now.

 

[WinterDeere]

Hey @Panik, are you talking about the BX2360 in your sig, or another machine?

I've never owned one, but I'm surprised to hear your level of concern, as BX2360 really appears to be a very stable little platform. I've owned several tractors of similar size and capability from other brands, and always felt like they'd be pretty difficult to roll, without doing something exceptionally stupid. With filled tires, a machine that low and squat must be just about planted to the ground.

Even my old Deere 855 was pretty damn stable, being relatively low-slung compared to it's wheelbase and track, and that sat up on 33" tires, as opposed to the BX2360's 26" tire.

The newer and larger 3033R is definitely more tippy than any other machine I've owned, despite being heavier than my prior tractors. They've really increased lift capacities on the newer machines, for a given wheelbase and track, which increases possibility of getting yourself into trouble during loader operations. It also seems that as CUT size/class goes up, they get taller a lot faster than they get wider or longer, just making them more tippy overall. I think the 3033R is on 41" rears.

 

[Panik]

Hey @Panik, are you talking about the BX2360 in your sig, or another machine?

I've never owned one, but I'm surprised to hear your level of concern, as BX2360 really appears to be a very stable little platform. I've owned several tractors of similar size and capability from other brands, and always felt like they'd be pretty difficult to roll, without doing something exceptionally stupid. With filled tires, a machine that low and squat must be just about planted to the ground.

Even my old Deere 855 was pretty damn stable, being relatively low-slung compared to it's wheelbase and track, and that sat up on 33" tires, as opposed to the BX2360's 26" tire.

The newer and larger 3033R is definitely more tippy than any other machine I've owned, despite being heavier than my prior tractors. They've really increased lift capacities on the newer machines, for a given wheelbase and track, which increases possibility of getting yourself into trouble during loader operations. It also seems that as CUT size/class goes up, they get taller a lot faster than they get wider or longer, just making them more tippy overall. I think the 3033R is on 41" rears.

I am... and it is pretty darn low and planted (quick google says 8-9" ground clearance). I dunno because I have no comparable experience having never operated another piece of "heavy equipment".

What I can say is that not a bit of my "yard" is truly flat and more importantly smooth... even the parts that are flattish have some compound slope to them and ruts/depressions from run-off and settling.

Running unladen was never been an issue for me, but I rarely do that since getting a zero turn for mowing instead of using the mid-mount. (side note.... mid-mount mower has been sitting in the shop taking up valuable space for 5 years... waiting on my decision to trade/sell on an implement, lol) Most of my case usage for the tractor these days is shuttling material around with the loader (dirt, mulch, rock, 35 gallon watering rig).

Thinking about things, I believe most of my issue with moving material with the FEL is not necessarily the slope but its the dips, divots, depression, and tree root ruts that appear/disappear or otherwise change with the season. Quick note here - I have always run a ballast or heavy implement when moving material with the FEL and the examples I am describing are from before filling the rear tires)

It's one thing running on a truly smooth compound angle slope with weight. You can visually plot a course and then adjust by the change in how the tractor feels under you (kinda like in a car navigating a curve at speed). However, it's a different animal to me when you also have to account for one of the front tires hitting a 2"-3" depression that wasn't there last season while also navigating that slope.

It's funny, and I am being real and honest here, I do operate that tractor in some conditions that are probably not the safest/somewhat questionable. However, in those cases I am very cautious and slow in my approach - and by and large those situations have not caused issues. On the other hand simply transporting material across what would seem like a safe and navigable part of my yard is where I generally gotten myself in trouble. (Rear tire becoming unladen, feel the need to drop the FEL to the ground, etc)

Since filling the rears those concerning examples have dropped significantly.... and I truly do think my pucker factor needs adjusting simply because I've not yet become accustomed to the feel of the tractor with the additional weight in the tires.

**I'm off work today and need to do some stuff in the shop - I'll try to get some pictures that appropriately describe the yard***

 

[WinterDeere]

I have similar trouble, you may have seen my photos of moving 15 foot logs with my loader, which around here is mostly oak. 62-64 lb./ft3, so even small logs are over 1000 lb., and I occasionally end up bringing home single sticks weighing up to 5000 lb. Like you, the area where I do this firewood work is not flat, mostly due to a combination of my own activity and erosion.

Always keeping the bucket or log as close to the ground is important. I've had a rear tire come off the ground more than a half dozen times, but all but twice I had the loader bucket low enough to the ground that the machine stopped with one rear tire just maybe 4" off the ground. I also keep my ballast box lifted as low as possible, without dragging, as that gives best side-stability over carrying it high on a side slope.

Also, don't be shy with ballast weight. I have something like 800# in my tires, plus 750# fixed weight in the ballast box, plus another 680# of suitcase weights I hang onto the ballast box when doing real heavy loader work. That's about 2230# of ballast beyond the weight of the machine itself, and since nine of those suitcase weights are hanging way off the back of the ballast box, their leverage is amplified well beyond their weight.

Of course be careful with too much rear ballast when driving uphill with an unloaded bucket or bucket removed, it's just as easy to go wheelie and walk a machine over backwards onto yourself, especially if it's gear drive rather than HST.

 

[Panik]

I have similar trouble, you may have seen my photos of moving 15 foot logs with my loader, which around here is mostly oak. 62-64 lb./ft3, so even small logs are over 1000 lb., and I occasionally end up bringing home single sticks weighing up to 5000 lb. Like you, the area where I do this firewood work is not flat, mostly due to a combination of my own activity and erosion.

Always keeping the bucket or log as close to the ground is important. I've had a rear tire come off the ground more than a half dozen times, but all but twice I had the loader bucket low enough to the ground that the machine stopped with one rear tire just maybe 4" off the ground. I also keep my ballast box lifted as low as possible, without dragging, as that gives best side-stability over carrying it high on a side slope.

Also, don't be shy with ballast weight. I have something like 800# in my tires, plus 750# fixed weight in the ballast box, plus another 680# of suitcase weights I hang onto the ballast box when doing real heavy loader work. That's about 2230# of ballast beyond the weight of the machine itself, and since nine of those suitcase weights are hanging way off the back of the ballast box, their leverage is amplified well beyond their weight.

Of course be careful with too much rear ballast when driving uphill with an unloaded bucket or bucket removed, it's just as easy to go wheelie and walk a machine over backwards onto yourself, especially if it's gear drive rather than HST.

I have and have been impressed looking at the photos!

Agreed on all counts...

- Most of the time I have the bucket so low as to be almost dragging on the ground and am constantly adjusting so it doesn't bounce/dig in. Same for the ballast box

- On ballast weight... that's actually one of the reasons I've thus far avoided adding rear wheel spacers (axle stress via longitudinal lengthening the lever force by adding spacers). I've forgetten how much weight is in the ballast box but it's filled to the brim (well over and above what's recommended for even B series tractors, let alone BX)

- Thankfully, by experience, I know I don't have slopes or slope crest-lips severe enough to be an issue for wheelie's. The steepest slope I have is down by my shop and the only time I deal with that is twice a year to brush hog the little blue-stem. Personally, I'd rather burn that slope, but I have Leland Cypress at the crest that would go like blowtorches. In any case the brush hog stays low, its only traversed up and down, I don't crest that slope with the tractor and I always drop the FEL to very closely follow the contour of the ground when approaching the top.

As much as I look back and regret not buying a TLB it's probably a good thing that it didn't occur with originally being new to operating "heavy equipment". I suspect I would have definitely gotten myself in trouble with that unwieldy of weight/shape hanging off my tractor.

It's funny, most discussions regarding sub-compact tractors at some point reference ground clearance being a concern when operating in wooded environments... especially with respect to the hydro cooling fan of BX series tractors being exposed. For my situation & with a good protective belly pan that reduced ground clearance is actually significant benefit anytime I take the tractor into the woods. I've looked at the Summit Tractors now being sold at Home Depot in my area (nice, heavy looking machines and with some really nice features for the price point) it makes me feel uncomfortable thinking about running one on my property...

 

[WinterDeere]

Yeah, ground clearance vs. stability is a constant battle. My machine has something like 12.5" ground clearance, and I feel it, versus my prior tractor. I think all of the manufacturers could do a better job at protecting the lowest protrusions, the weak link on my own machine is a giant clear plastic fuel filter bowl hanging low in front of the foot board.

I suspect you're going to be the one guy that never experiences a roll-over, since it's on your mind, and you're taking care. Your machine looks quite stable, by comparison to some, and you're not complacent.

I would be willing to bet that 90% of the rollovers I've seen have been older guys on older gear-drive tractors, or with DIY-adapted loaders too large for the machine. They're either dragging something and walk the machine over on themselves when it drags and they can't get to the clutch quick enough, or tipping it over because the loader and bucket are just too large for the machine. Age, reaction speed, and familiarity / complacency all contribute.

 

[Panik]

Haha.... the kinds words are appreciated, but don't give me too much credit. There have been a couple times where I've come really close to killing myself, but hopefully they've all been learning experiences.

Also, I get it about the fuel bowl. The BX has two of those small plastic inline fuel filters with one of them being directly under the operator station and only accessible by squeezing into the 9" ish space under the frame.

Yearly I debate about upgrading/relocating the filter to a spin-on on the side of the frame, but have a hunch I'd clean it off doing something dumb while running the tractor, lol

 

[ning]

IMO the most useful thing to figure out: Just where is the center of mass [CoM] (also called center of gravity, [CoG]) of your unit? And yes, include yourself in that "calculation".
Example SWAG ("scientific wild-assed guess"):

Ok not so scientific, but the main idea is to identify the heaviest parts of the tractor - engine, chassis, rear drive/3ph, and in a SCUT also the operator (which may be a good 10-15% of the SCUT weight), and then find where the center of all those CoM's are (with the actual CoM being closer to the CoM of the heaviest pieces, etc).

Here I'm pretending that the CoM is pretty much on that horizontal line (I'm using my company screenshot annotator to mark up a pic and it's got like four tools so I can't get fancy, lines have arrows) and the vertical line is a vertical line so that you can see the intersection point with the horizontal.

Now that you know where the CoM is, you can draw a triangle linking the tires and the CoM:

If the line linking the CoM to the tire goes past vertical, you're going to roll.
Otherwise, you're not going to roll.
It's that simple.

What's not simple is that just because your current position is on the "not rolling" side doesn't mean it will be if you move forward six inches and drop the lower front wheel into a hole.

But still you can see that at least on grippy smooth ground you've probably got a pretty steep side-rollover angle. All bets are off on your yard, though, because of gophers and slipper grass (start side slipping, then stop side slipping suddenly, and the effective angle goes up).

Note that other things being carried can substantially affect CoM (only considering the vertical position here):

• Cab : generall raises CoM because all of it is probably above the rest of the tractor's CoM. Probably not by a lot, though, because cabs aren't that heavy
• Loader: if the bucket is held low, overall the CoM isn't much affected vs no-loader-at all. Raise the bucket, especially with heavy stuff in it, and the CoM goes up.
• Ballast box: CoM of the ballast box is probably at a similar height as the rest of the system, thus the CoM height won't change.
• Other 3ph attachments: Once again, if the CoM of a part (like an attachment) is above the rest of the CoM, the entire CoM goes up, etc. For instance, a rotary cutter is pretty heavy but if carried low (but still off the ground) then the CoM of the cutter is below the tractor's CoM, so the entire system's CoM goes down. However if the cutter's wheel is carrying half the weight then there's less mass, right? Also Consider that the 3ph linkage may allow the cutter to shift which could result in surprises if you're approaching rollover angles.

On a riding mower ("lawn tractor"), the entire thing is pretty light. I can pick up the front or back of mine briefly which is mostly how I get it unstuck. My weight is about 1/3 of the mower's weight, so if I was solidly attached to it I'd substantially affect the CoM. As it is, I can pretend I'm riding a motorcycle and hang my weight off the high side to lower my CoM so the entire system's CoM isn't quite as bad. It's still pretty bad, though, because the mower is less than four feet across. Luckily the seat disintegrated a while back so my butt is lower on the thing, lowering my CoM contribution by a few inches. Makes all the difference in ride quality maybe