Backhoe Ripper tooth design - need your advice

   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #121  
Thanks Blue.
You did a real good description of your slaying. Were those stumps fairly old- meaning had the trees been cut some time ago? It looked that they were from the pics. What HP do you get at the hoe with the independent pump? Is it greater than if it were to run off the tractor's hydraulics?



CM you do a heck of a job creating a visual using verbiage can't say I will do as well, but here goes.

The learning curve was not as bad as I had thought, but I was pretty comfortable with the controls from past use. I did make a few silly beginner errors like forgetting to put the stabilizers down, on the first insertion pivoting on the rear tires and "teeter tottered" me in the seat toward the ground and the front wheels went up. :loser: Another was not having the engine rpm sufficient causing lack of power, my backhoe is driven by its own pump off the PTO. Optimum RPM seemed to be 2200 - 2400 it was very noisy but I used my forester helmet ear muffs to quiet things down... as well as the helmet face shield for the flying dirt.

Initially I found myself positioning to far from the stump, where I had to extend the boom & dipper about half their travel to reach. Although this worked on the very dead and smaller stumps which I started with. It did cause me to lose leverage when I got the inside arc of the ripper under a strong root. Learning from this, I approached things differently on the big stump I knew I would have a difficult time with. Those I planned on attacking from multiple sides, usually only moving once at 90 degrees from the initial position. I found it best to position the boom, dipper & ripper in full closed position and backed up square and just in front of the stump. This was the point at which I felt I could get the maximum leverage from the hydraulics. Although it looked too close initially, after the stabilizer were down it gave me good position and I could see real well what I was doing from my perch. I never found I had to readjust my position farther back and typically completed the stump removal on the my re-position at 90 degrees. I did however after the stump was loose, move tractor further away to clean the debris from the root ball as I was too close to pick the roots clean.

My wife didn't get any good pics of the approach... but these kind of show what is too far away (first one) and the about right position (second one)
View attachment 344265 View attachment 344266

As for the technique used to sever the roots, this was a complete combination of using all controls to get a grip on the root. The control that did the most work was the bucket curl. When I had a good hold under the root, the curl was the driving force that allowed me utilize the teeth in a slight sawing motion and then pop that root in half... it was very impressive. I had many roots that I lost grip on as the ripper violently squirted out from under it. Those I would just try to slightly re-position the boom radially from the stump axis to get a new grip in a weaker area (roots get smaller and easier to break further from the stump axis). This however causes you to get some quite large craters when you finally get the stump out!

You and IslandTractor both warned me about those slippery roots. One of the suggestions that IT had was to add a "reversed raised barb" just after the point and before the first tooth to help catch & hold the root. This would have definitely helped in these instances, but it might also have aided in getting it stuck as well. The wedge shape of the ripper allows it to go down, in & under easily and if stuck doesn't always come out easily. I found myself dealing with a lot more rock than anticipated and I got completely stuck a couple times which left me helpless for a few moments. I got the ripper deeply buried under a root with the back of it against a non-visible large rock. This situation allowed me no travel with any controls, after trying for a few seconds with no luck except the entire tractor shifting on the stabilizers. :scratchchin: I finally figured out the only adjustment I had was the stabilizers. Using these allowed me the wiggle room to get the ripper out. I really thought I was in deep ca-ca!

I did try the approach using the FEL with tractor in low gear to dislodge the stump after severing the roots. Although this worked well IT WAS NO WHERE NEAR AS FUN as completing the entire removal with the ripper! There was complete satisfaction behind the controls of the backhoe when that big *** stump wiggled and twisted out of its spot! I found myself having WAY too much fun doing this. The FEL approach would be your best option if your trees have a main center core or stem root, like a carrot has. The pines I was dealing with have numerous axial roots running away from the tree axis, making the "ripper only" use desirable. Although I did bring my sawzall with me (as recommended by some) I did not use it due to the rocks and as I was insistent on accomplishing this with my new toy! I also really enjoyed clearing out the debris (rock & dirt) from the root ball as it really taught me finesse of the backhoe controls.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #122  
Thanks Blue. You did a real good description of your slaying. Were those stumps fairly old- meaning had the trees been cut some time ago? It looked that they were from the pics. What HP do you get at the hoe with the independent pump? Is it greater than if it were to run off the tractor's hydraulics?

I was wondering the same thing about the age of the stumps. Pretty dry land too which, combined with year or two of aging, would have made for fairly easy to break roots.

When I use my ripper to take down living trees or just cut trees, the roots are flexible and ride up on the ripper or just plain bend more. My ugly duckling fix was to weld a couple of two inch sections of thick walled drill pipe directly on to the cutting edge and backside a little more than half way up the blade. Looks like crap but does an excellent job of 1) preventing the root from sliding up the blade, and 2) if the root is too thick to break, it takes a 1.5 inch chunk out of it each pass so the root usually breaks after two or three passes.

The other thing I have learned is that "ripper" needs to be thought of more as a "breaker" than a knife. The wedge shaped edge doesn't slice so much as provide a relatively sharp anvil that concentrates the breaking force. I never slice through roots, they are always torn apart. Sometimes the weak area is three or even six feet away from where my ripper exerts force so the root either tears off at the stump (uncommon) or pulls the root out of the ground considerably distal to where the ripper is so I get some stumps with six foot roots attached.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #123  
. Sometimes the weak area is three or even six feet away from where my ripper exerts force so the root either tears off at the stump (uncommon) or pulls the root out of the ground considerably distal to where the ripper is so I get some stumps with six foot roots attached.

That sounds like it would be ideal (pulling the distant root out). I did not understand that would be often the case with those of you that have the rippers.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #124  
That sounds like it would be ideal (pulling the distant root out). I did not understand that would be often the case with those of you that have the rippers.

If the roots are shallow, are fresh and flexible, and you engage the root at the right spot (not too close to the stump), and the ground is not too moist, then the weak link is often a distal part of the root so it breaks there rather than right where you engage. Sometimes it just pulls the whole root out through its own tunnel so that the tip is only half an inch or so wide.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice
  • Thread Starter
#125  
Thanks Blue.
You did a real good description of your slaying. Were those stumps fairly old- meaning had the trees been cut some time ago? It looked that they were from the pics. What HP do you get at the hoe with the independent pump? Is it greater than if it were to run off the tractor's hydraulics?

The first 3-4 stumps I took out were a 3-5 years old since cut down. I picked those as I knew they would be easier even though they were quite large. The remainder were trees that had been cut 6-12 months earlier. I did have 3 trees that were fresh cut and one was in the 20"+ range. These did not react any different than the ones that were cut 6-12 months earlier.

As for the HP with the independent pump... I bought the tractor used, since it is only a 35HP unit so I was happy to have the independent pump as I thought it would be a bit underpowered for the Woods BH9000 backhoe. So I think it is an advantage for me with the 3 cyl engine. I just looked in the manual and didn't find any specs on what the pump puts out... but I'm happy with the current performance as long as my rpms are in that 22-25K range. My saving grace has been the fact that this backhoe has the full sub-frame system rather than the 3 point hitch. It seems to me with only a 3 point, this large of backhoe would twist it up in no time!
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice
  • Thread Starter
#126  
Oops... spoke to soon I just found the spec in the manual for operating pressure
Digging & Swing = 2400PSI

But did not find a spec on the independent pump.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice
  • Thread Starter
#127  
I was wondering the same thing about the age of the stumps. Pretty dry land too which, combined with year or two of aging, would have made for fairly easy to break roots.

The Southwest has been hit with drought for several years now. Even up in the mountains @ 8000' where we are the soil has been dry until this summer. This drought has really taken a toll on the forest. With the overgrown population of trees and lack of moisture we have seen great increase in fire danger and insect damage. A large part of my effort was due to last years "bark beetle" damage. We were forced to remove the infected as quickly after infestation. Our property was one of the worse hit with a cluster of about a dozen good size trees (30-55' tall pinon) dead in 6-10 weeks. This time last year all my wife and I did was drop trees and haul them to the slash pit. Couldn't even save the wood as the "rice" sized beetles were multiplying under the bark. We sprayed all the stumps with pesticide and hoped for the best. Bad part was the Forest Service knew about the infested trees in the pit and didn't bother to burn them last winter so I'm sure they just moved on the infect other areas. This year it was only 3 trees right next to the cluster from last year. Hope that's over!

Here is a view of part of the area after removal of the infected trees #1-8, #9 was removed in May as the tree was very irregular and out of place without the others, second pic is what it looks like today
Before_&_After-2.jpg Before_&_After.jpg

Anyways the soil was moist and since it is a clay base it compacts easily... which was one of the problems I had with the ripper as it got the "shovel" part of it clogged with soil. Each evening I had to use a crowbar to pry out the compacted soil. I need to review that for the future and put something in there to avoid this if possible. But for now all the stumps are gone... so no worries!

The other thing I have learned is that "ripper" needs to be thought of more as a "breaker" than a knife. The wedge shaped edge doesn't slice so much as provide a relatively sharp anvil that concentrates the breaking force. I never slice through roots, they are always torn apart. Sometimes the weak area is three or even six feet away from where my ripper exerts force so the root either tears off at the stump (uncommon) or pulls the root out of the ground considerably distal to where the ripper is so I get some stumps with six foot roots attached.

Definitely had this scenario happen several times on medium and smaller trees that were of the fresher cut.

QLE_ripper-26.jpg QLE_ripper-27.jpg long_roots.jpg
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #128  
I was wondering the same thing about the age of the stumps. Pretty dry land too which, combined with year or two of aging, would have made for fairly easy to break roots.

When I use my ripper to take down living trees or just cut trees, the roots are flexible and ride up on the ripper or just plain bend more. My ugly duckling fix was to weld a couple of two inch sections of thick walled drill pipe directly on to the cutting edge and backside a little more than half way up the blade. Looks like crap but does an excellent job of 1) preventing the root from sliding up the blade, and 2) if the root is too thick to break, it takes a 1.5 inch chunk out of it each pass so the root usually breaks after two or three passes.

The other thing I have learned is that "ripper" needs to be thought of more as a "breaker" than a knife. The wedge shaped edge doesn't slice so much as provide a relatively sharp anvil that concentrates the breaking force. I never slice through roots, they are always torn apart. Sometimes the weak area is three or even six feet away from where my ripper exerts force so the root either tears off at the stump (uncommon) or pulls the root out of the ground considerably distal to where the ripper is so I get some stumps with six foot roots attached.

I concur with your findings, IT, especially what you described about breaking the roots, sometimes far from the trunk of the stump. That's what I tried to detail but with less effectiveness than you. Do you use your bucket at all, as I described, or only the ripper?
Is your hoe like Bluehog's or does it run off your DK's pump?
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #129  
I concur with your findings, IT, especially what you described about breaking the roots, sometimes far from the trunk of the stump. That's what I tried to detail but with less effectiveness than you. Do you use your bucket at all, as I described, or only the ripper?
Is your hoe like Bluehog's or does it run off your DK's pump?

I don't use a bucket but I do have a grapple mounted and use it frequently when ripping. Almost every time I move the tractor to reposition the BH I will take a stab under the stump with the grapple to see if it is ready to come out. Most of my stumps are removed with a combination of ripper and grapple.

My BH runs off the tractor hydraulics via rear remote.
 
   / Ripper tooth design - need your advice #130  
I have a Case 580K. Only the largest 3-4' diameter stumps are a major problem. It occurs to me that a backhoe is less useful if you don't have a good way to get the dirt out of the way. I have seen an ad on advertized that welds to the back of a bucket. If you envision the angle for digging a shallow ditch in sand with the teeth pointing nearly horizontal, this device would not engage the ground. Curl the bucket even further this ripper engages. I haven't tried it. I would buy a tooth and shank from an industrial bucket, torch it at the correct angle, use a 3/4" reinforcing plate of high strength steel perhaps 6" square, weld it well all the way around. Weld the tooth shank to it. Unless you are an expert welder you would be happier using 1/8" 7018 in AC or DC as your welder requires. Preheat is essential. Weld will shrink with incredible force. A super hard weld will exert massive tension, likely breaking your bucket. A 60,000 or 70,000 rod will stretch itself, in doing so become stronger, tougher. A 130,000 weld is likely stronger than your bucket, It being hotter than the rest of the bucket, yet stronger won't yield. The colder bucket steel is forced to do the stretching. 7018 with pre heating and clean steel help control hydrogen in the weld making it much stronger. A book being reprinted Metals And How To Weld Them from The James Lincoln Foundation is the best spent $10.00 I ever spent.

If this won't see constant use a replaceable tooth isn't needed. Face the top of the tooth with manganese electrode. This stuff wears like diamond.

Use the bucket to expose the root, the ripper to break it. Take small bites.
 
 

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