Right to Privacy

brin · Apr 6, 2010

Here is the problem guys, the way I see it...Everyone agrees we have a big problem with health care costs and something has to be done to correct the problems. The new health care bill gives the government control over 1/6 th of our economy and most reasonable folks don't like that idea since they see how the government has managed other endeavors such as the Post Office, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security etc. all of these programs are either bankrupt or nearly bankrupt. Wouldn't it be a better idea to fix that part of health care that needs fixing and leave the rest alone ? Where are the doctors and hospitals going to come from, not to mention the money , to treat 30 million more people not to mention if illegal immigrants get amnesty that will add another 16 million and each of them can bring in their relatives once they become citizens..There is a lot more I could post but I will leave it there.

Chuck52 · Apr 6, 2010

Bob,

Thanks for your description of your thoughts on the matter. I understand your reluctance to trust the government to handle yet another big program. I even share it to a fairly high extent. However, I come down on the other side of the equation. I think in part this is due to my belief that health care is "special" and not just another commodity. I am aware that nowhere in the Constitution is health care defined as a right, but then at the time of the writing of the Constitution "health care" was something to avoid if at all possible. Many of the same folks who wrote the Constitution participated in writing the Declaration of Independence, and there is that phrase about "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" in that document, and I would argue that without adequate health care all three of those inalienable rights get hard to pursue. I don't trust private enterprise to guarantee me safe food, water, air or health care, without government vigilance, and I know that government vigilance is often inadequate to those jobs, but it is what we have. I do not place absolute faith in government, but some things just should not be completely trusted to the free market. As I've said before and never been answered, if you and a really rich guy are in a closed space with limited air, does he get the last breath because he has the most money? If there is some market driven source for the air, he does.

Chuck

2manyrocks · Apr 6, 2010

FDIC insured banks are subject to examination by banking examiners for "safety and soundness" since the 1930's. They have regulatory power to shut down a bank for unsafe banking practices and they have the power to ban particular individuals from working at an FDIC insured institution thereafter.

There was an S & L meltdown in the early 90's. Now we have a banking meltdown over subprime mortgages.

The guys running this mess are definately at fault, but the regulatory system also failed to police them IMHO.

Some heads rolled at the SEC for being asleep on watch when Bernie Madoff was stealing from investors. Some other heads need to roll, too.

Practically speaking, you might find a lawyer who'll take on a private insurance company if they mess you over. But it is an entirely different ballgame to litigate with the government because they don't keep an eye on their P & L statement. Litigation costs mean nothing to them.

Doesn't anyone else find it odd that liberals are mad because they are being told to buy private insurance or be fined, and conservatives are mad because they are being told to buy private insurance or be fined?

brin · Apr 6, 2010

Chuck52 said:
Bob,

Thanks for your description of your thoughts on the matter. I understand your reluctance to trust the government to handle yet another big program. I even share it to a fairly high extent. However, I come down on the other side of the equation. I think in part this is due to my belief that health care is "special" and not just another commodity. I am aware that nowhere in the Constitution is health care defined as a right, but then at the time of the writing of the Constitution "health care" was something to avoid if at all possible. Many of the same folks who wrote the Constitution participated in writing the Declaration of Independence, and there is that phrase about "Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness" in that document, and I would argue that without adequate health care all three of those inalienable rights get hard to pursue. I don't trust private enterprise to guarantee me safe food, water, air or health care, without government vigilance, and I know that government vigilance is often inadequate to those jobs, but it is what we have. I do not place absolute faith in government, but some things just should not be completely trusted to the free market. As I've said before and never been answered, if you and a really rich guy are in a closed space with limited air, does he get the last breath because he has the most money? If there is some market driven source for the air, he does.

Chuck

Chuck...I feel this way...We all have choices..We can choose to take care of ourselves and save our money for a rainy day....some do this. Others on the other hand choose risky lifestyles and choose to spend their money on booze, drugs or worse and some choose not to work. I have no sympathy for those folks and I don't think responsible, not rich but responsible folks should not have to pay for their health care. By the same token, folks that went out and bought Hummers, 2nd homes and ran up their charge cards and now can not pay their debts should not be looking to responsible folks who did without the hummers, boats, 2nd homes etc. and instead saved their money for their rainy day...not the other folks rainy day...Does that make any sense to you...?

Cat_Driver · Apr 6, 2010

I found this on the web:

I was in my neighborhood restaurant this morning and was seated behind
a group of jubilant individuals celebrating the successful passing of
the recent health care bill. I could not finish my breakfast. This is
what ensued:

They were a diverse group of several races and both sexes. I heard the
young man exclaim, çš„snç¨š Obama like Jesus Christ? I mean, after all,
he is healing the sick. The young woman enthusiastically proclaimed,
æ·»eah, and he does it for free. I cannot believe anyone would think
that a free market would work for health care. They are all crooks and
thieves and donç¨š deserve all of that money. Another said, "The stupid
Republicans want us all to starve to death so they can inherit all of
the power. Obama should be made a Saint for what he did for those of us
less fortunate. At this, I had heard enough.

I arose from my seat, mustering all the restraint I could find, and
approached their table. æ’¤lease excuse me; may I impose upon you for
one moment? They smiled and welcomed me to the conversation. I stood
at the end of their table, smiled as best I could and began an
experiment.

çš„ would like to give one of you my house. It will cost you no money
and I will pay all of the expenses and taxes for as long as you live
there. Anyone interested?
They looked at each other in astonishment. å±•hy would you do something
like that? asked a young man, å…¸here isnç¨š anything for free in this
world. They began to laugh at me, as they did not realize this man had
just made my point. çš„ am serious, I will give you my house for free,
no money what so ever. Anyone interested? In unison, a resounding
æ»´ell Yeah! fills the room.

é‰„ince there are too many of you, I will have to make a choice as to
! who rece ives this money free bargain. I noticed an elderly couple was
paying attention to the spectacle unfolding before their eyes, the old
man shaking his head in apparent disgust. çš„ tell you what; I will give
it to the one of you most willing to obey my rules. Again, they looked
at one another, an expression of bewilderment on their faces.
The perky young woman asked, å±•hat are the rules? I smiled and said,
çš„ donç¨š know. I have not yet defined them. However, it is a free home
that I offer you. They giggled amongst themselves, the youngest of
which said, å±•hat an old coot. He must be crazy to give away his home.
Go take your meds, old man.
I smiled and leaned into the table a bit further. çš„ am serious, this
is a legitimate offer. They gaped at me for a moment.

æ»´ell, Iå€¤l take it you old fool. Where are the keys? boasted the
youngest among them. å…¸hen I presume you accept ALL of my terms then?
I asked.
The elderly couple seemed amused and entertained as they watched from
the privacy of their table. å¾¹h **** yeah! Where do I sign up?
I took a napkin and wrote, çš„ give this man my home, without the burden
of financial obligation, so long as he accepts and abides by the terms
that I shall set forth upon consummation of this transaction. I signed
it and handed it to the young man who eagerly scratched out his
signature.
å±•here are the keys to my new house? he asked in a mocking tone of
voice. All eyes were upon us as I stepped back from the table, pulling
the keys from pocket and dangling them before the excited new
homeowner.

å“²ow that we have entered into this binding contract, witnessed by all
of your friends, I have decided upon the conditions you are obligated
to adhere from this point forward. You may only live in the house for
one hour a day. You will not use anything inside of the home. You will
obey me without question or resistance. I expect complete loyalty and
admiration for this gift I bestow upon you. You will accept my commands
and wishes with enthusiasm, no matter the nature. Your morals and
principles shall be as mine. You will vote as I do, think as I do and
do it with blind faith. These are my terms. Here are your keys. I
reached the keys forward and the young man looked at me dumb founded.

é„*re you out of your freaking mind? Who would ever agree to those
ridiculous terms? the young man appeared irritated. æ·»ou did when you
signed this contract before reading it, understanding it and with the
full knowledge that I would provide my conditions only after you
committed to the agreement, was all I said.
The elderly man chuckled as his wife tried to restrain himself. I was
looking at a now silenced and bewildered group of people. æ·»ou can
shove that stupid deal up; youæ±*e a crazy old man, I want no part of it."
exclaimed the now infuriated young man.
æ·»ou have committed to the contract, as witnessed by all of your
friends; you cannot get out of the deal unless I agree to it. I do not
intend to let you free now that I have you ensnared. I am the power you
agreed to. I am the one you blindly and without thought chose to
enslave yourself to. In short, I am your Master. At this, the table of
celebrating individuals became a unified group against the unfairness
of the deal.

After a few moments of unrepeatable comments and slurs, I revealed my
true intent. å±•hat I did to you is what this administration and
congress did to you with the health care legislation. I easily suckered
you in and then revealed the real cost of the bargain. Your folly was
in the belief that you can have something you did not earn; that you
are entitled to that which you did not earn; that you willingly allowed
someone else to think for you. Your failure to research, study and
inform yourself permitted reason to escape you. You have entered into a
trap from which you cannot flee. Your only chance of freedom is if your
new Master gives it unto you. A freedom that is given can also be taken
away; therefore, it is not freedom. With that, I tore up the napkin
and placed it before the astonished young man. å…¸his is the nature of
your new health care legislation.

I turned away to leave these few in thought and contemplation and was
surprised by applause. The elderly gentleman, who was clearly
entertained, shook my hand enthusiastically and said, å…¸hank you Sir,
these kids donç¨š understand Liberty these days. He refused to allow me
to pay my bill as he said, æ·»ou earned this one, it is an honor to
pickup the tab. I shook his hand in thanks, leaving the restaurant

20 20 · Apr 6, 2010

riptides said:
On one side we have the Government.

On the other side we have private corporations.

In the middle we have the consumer.

Both have their hands in our pockets, but these last few years IMHO the private corporations with Wall Streets guidance have set me back more than my government ever has.

BINGO

FallbrookFarmer · Apr 6, 2010

Chuck52 said:
I had no part in removing your other attempt at a political discussion. I assume one of the moderators did what they are supposed to do. Frankly I don't give a rat's ***** if you ignore my comments....you clearly have your own ideas about reality and I certainly wouldn't want you to have to think.

One example: I have never said or implied that your VA coverage was free to you. My father served in WWII, my older brother served in Vietnam, and my older son served a tour in the Navy. I am quite happy they received and still receive the medical care they earned, as I am happy you receive the medical care you earned. I don't think the great majority of Americans should receive FREE medical care. The whole argument is who is the middle man between the patient and the medical provider. You seem to want that to be a private insurance company which is obviously trying to make money on the process. I don't even argue that the company should not be trying to make money. I simply think that the government could collect money from us and pay the medical providers, and do it at a cost savings for the populace of the United States, as is done for you, except that where you earned your medical care by your service, the rest of the population would pay for theirs through the agency of a government plan. The people would still be paying, so there is no free lunch, just perhaps a somewhat less expensive lunch. Clearly, some citizens would indeed get "free" medical care under such a system, but they already do! It would just make that part of the system more organized and transparent. I further think that all of you who are already covered by a government plan, which you EARNED, should be exempt from paying into this other government plan....you certainly should not have to pay twice, by your service and out of your pocket. Is that clear enough? Do you understand it would not be FREE?

Now, it is clear that most correspondents on this discussion group agree more with you than with me on this subject, as they trust private enterprise more than government. I can live with that. Remember, however, that this is a limited groups and does not come close to representing the population of these United States. However, I would like to think that a fairly high proportion even of this group can tell the difference between FREE medical care and what I see as a reasonable alternative, which would certainly not be free.

Chuck

Sad, really that you feel the need to use obscenity AND a personal attack in response to my post.
Why the anger Chuck?
As I told you, I am more than willing to engage you on the field of ideas, IF you don't feel the need to insult people.
As to your relatives service, I salute them, as should you.
I am reminded of the inauguration speech of JFK. "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask, what you can do for your country" Obviously your father and brothers answered that call.

FallbrookFarmer · Apr 6, 2010

riptides said:
On one side we have the Government.

On the other side we have private corporations.

In the middle we have the consumer.

Both have their hands in our pockets, but these last few years IMHO the private corporations with Wall Streets guidance have set me back more than my government ever has.

Two points:
1.NO corporation can put their hand in your pocket, they can only take what you give them.
On the other hand, Don't pay your taxes, and they will do a lot worse than put their hand in your pocket.
2. You must have a REALLY good accountant if you pay less in taxes, than you paid for health care.
Can I get his name?

FallbrookFarmer · Apr 6, 2010

dave1949 said:
Cyril, I know it's early there It was all sarcasm, it makes no sense at all. Just be sure you go about your day with your proof of insurance card taped to your forehead :laughing:
Dave.

Or better yet, have your Social security number tattooed on your B-tt

That way when the tax man comes and says bend over, you'll be prepared

dcyrilc · Apr 6, 2010

FallbrookFarmer said:
Or better yet, have your Social security number tattooed on your B-tt That way when the tax man comes and says bend over, you'll be prepared

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

That was good.