Revisiting the PTO-generator question

djradz · Dec 9, 2002

Bob, the transfer box can only be used at your own house because it gets wired into your main panel. It won't help if you decide to loan the generator out. A couple of other things to consider are:

1. If you don't want to use a trailer, a 3-pt "Carry All" would work also. They go for $50-$70 bucks. Since they mount the generator close to the tractor, you'll have to make sure the PTO drive shaft is the right length.

2. A manual or automatic transfer switch is the safest way to go "for the power company." It ensures your generator does not "backfeed" onto your local power system, but is not the only option. Another way is to simply plug your generator into a welder or dryer receptacle. To do this and prevent injury to a power company worker however REQUIRES that you OPEN your main breaker or pull your electric meter. Just like the transfer switch, this step(s) break your connection with the power company and makes sure your house is isolated. You must ensure one or both of these is done. An added benefit of doing this is that you also ensure your generator is not trying to power your neighborhood, which it can't really do anyways, but will try nonetheless.

Trev · Dec 9, 2002

he transfer box can only be used at your own house because it gets wired into your main panel. It won't help if you decide to loan the generator out.

Understood.. I was thinking of seeing our neighbors wanted to wire up their own transfer box just so they'd be ready if they wanted me to give them some power, or to rent/buy their own generator some day.

I see all the very strongly stated posts about the pluses and minuses of hooking directly to the dryer receptacle, etc. I suppose I could put a real transfer box in our house, and if the neighbors had a genuine emergency, I would drive the tractor over, make them show me they had disconnected their main breaker, and so on. Even then.. I don't like the idea of making it easy to make a mistake. I can see someone's kid wandering down into the basement and seeing what this "main" switch does. :-/

Great idea about the 3-pt carry-all. The trailer might make it easier to move the thing around by hand though, if that became necessary. Hmm. Lots of thinking to do here. But it's 10 degrees here today, and if we lost power we'd be in trouble in very short order. I have to do something.

Thanks again,
Bob

Trev · Dec 9, 2002

I bought a Generac 20K 40K surge pto on trailer in fall
of 2000 for $1500 from a widow that had a dairy farm.


Want to sell it to me for $1600 and make a profit on it? /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Justaplain · Dec 9, 2002

When you wire direct to the dryer outlet, I assume you are coming off the 220 recep on the gen??? Yes or NO??

djradz · Dec 9, 2002

Absolutely, same for the welder outlet. A 240 volt range outlet would work also. I like a 50 to 60 amp circuit. Kind of forget which typically has the largest, but I use my welder outlet in my garage.

beenthere · Dec 9, 2002

As a minimum, when I used an emergency generator rig to power up neighbors, I did so by first pulling the meter out of its socket. Then no power can be fed to the hi-lines. When this ice storm hit, no one was prepared with the hook-up boxes (obviously the way to go).

I also, in these emergencies, just plugged the cables from the generator set into the same brackets on the house side of the meter socket. For running things in the house, just flip off all the circuit breakers when hooking up, and flip them on whatever circuits are needed.

Usually, if going to the neighbors (a lot of farmers, in my case), what the emergency needs are would be the well pump to get water into the toilets, the furnace to get the house warm, and the freezer/refrigerators to get things back to frozen or cool. My neighbors needed power to run the milkers to get the cows milked, and to run the bulk milk tank to get the milk cool, and to pump water to do the milking. The house would come after the barn chores were done.

Your generosity for your neighbors is great. As a minimum, they will appreciate your ideas and possibly buy your first generator set-up, as by then you will have new ideas on how to improve it and want a different one. You are clever.

Von · Dec 9, 2002

Trev, I would just get a stand alone generator that would have enough power to do what you want. I have a 4000 watt gas one that I got during the ice storm in 90' (I live in Fairport, near you) and I have had to use it at least a few times a year since the big storm. I just back feed the house from a 220 line in the shop after killing the main in the house. It has enough power to run the furnace, well, sumppump and some lights as well as other things. Total cost is about $450.00 for the generator and thats it. As for helping your neighbors, 10 to 1 when your neighbors don't have power you won't either! Plus with a small portable unit, just place it on a carryall if you need to take it anywhere. And you still have use of your tractor if needed. Yes it is one more engine to service, but all I have ever done to mine is change the oil a few times. I just run it dry after every use and it starts on the second pull every time! At least it has in the last 12 years!

Trev · Dec 9, 2002

As a minimum, when I used an emergency generator rig to power up neighbors, I did so by first pulling the meter out of its socket. Then no power can be fed to the hi-lines. When this ice storm hit, no one was prepared with the hook-up boxes (obviously the way to go).
I also, in these emergencies, just plugged the cables from the generator set into the same brackets on the house side of the meter socket.

When people speak of "pulling the meter out" I'm not sure I know what they're referring to. The glass meter with the wheel in it that spins around? I didn't even know they came off.. and I assumed it was illegal to mess with those. Are you folks suggesting they can just be popped off in some way and absolutely guarantee no power from the line can reach any of the house circuits? What if some kid reached in there playing around.. could s/he get zapped?

Thanks, and sorry for my electrical ignorance.

Bob

Trev · Dec 9, 2002

Hi BeenThere,

Your generosity for your neighbors is great. As a minimum, they will appreciate your ideas and possibly buy your first generator set-up, as by then you will have new ideas on how to improve it and want a different one. You are clever. 

No, not really clever.. none of that had even occured to me! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif But I like the way you think! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

I'm still studying and questioning and looking for the best setup for general use. If the neighbors do like the idea, and appreciate my efforts, maybe I can install a small nuke and begin selling power. (Bet there's a lot of paperwork to do that!) /w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

ns_in_tex · Dec 9, 2002

I like the one transfer switch does all method myself, but do not have to use them often down here. Also this is the reason I change to pto instead of self contained, my unit had set up for several years, then needed it & could not get it started without a lot of work. Normally my tractors are used enough, starting is not a problem.

Trev · Dec 9, 2002

Hi Von. Say, we still need to get together someday.. I'd forgotten you lived so close!

As for helping your neighbors, 10 to 1 when your neighbors don't have power you won't either! 

Well, I kind of envisioned driving around, giving people enough power to get warmed up, keep their pipes from freezing, get their fridge and freezer cooled down, and then move on to the next ... or back home to do my own house again. Obviously this isn't an ideal solution.. just a way of helping people out a bit if we do have a major outtage (and I hear that downing our power grid is one of the terrorist objectives.) And of course I want my family to be as comfortable as I can make them...

Thanks for your perspective on this. The stand-alone unit is something I haven't ruled out. Not by a long shot. But I really do like the idea of one less engine to maintain.

My JD dealer thinks he may have found me a 12,000 watt (13K surge) unit that has 3-pt hitch connection.. he just has to see if he can get it. Now that might be a nice setup. Some weight on the back of the tractor in case I have to use my front blade to push some snow to get to the folks electric boxes, then just turn around and plug in.

I dunno.. I have a lot more learning to do first!

Bob

ebeacham · Dec 9, 2002

maybe I can install a small nuke and begin selling power. (Bet there's a lot of paperwork to do that!) 

You got that right!! An awful lot of paperwork to boil water!!

MikePA · Dec 9, 2002

I just back feed the house from a 220 line in the shop after killing the main in the house.
Hi, Von! How do you do this? A power cord with a male 220 plug at each end, one end goes to the generator and one plugs into the 220 outlet?

Von · Dec 9, 2002

Mike, Yes that is how I do it. I plug in the generator and shut off that breaker as well as the main. Then start the generator, once its warmed up I hit the breaker to the line that the generator is plugged into and I'm back feeding the whole house and shop. Has worked fine for the last 12 yrs.

MikePA · Dec 9, 2002

What size cable did you use for the connection between the generator and the 220 outlet?

Von · Dec 9, 2002

Mike,I used 12 ga. wire as the generator is rated at 16 amps for 220 and 12 ga. is rated up to 20 amps. The wire is cool to the touch when the generator is running, so there must not be any problems. only have a run of about 15' from gen. to outlet, so that might help too.

Anonymous Poster · Dec 10, 2002

Von, that ice storm was in March of 91, I still have the hat to remember those 16 hour days by. This is starting to look like the Greater Monroe County emergency power board from my perspective in Hilton.
Pulling meters is normally a BIG NO NO, and highly unlawful; However, if a politician declares a State of Emergency, all rules are off.
The right & proper way to feed a generator to a house is thru a transferr switch, big double pole double throw switch, that COSTS $.
About 10 years ago, a few manufacturers came out with tin boxes called things like Gentran, with a couple pilot lights and a mickey mouse meter. These things are nothing but a bunch of double throw switches in an overpriced box. First, you can make your own from a 3 way switch, and second, installing such a unit may well be in violation of the National Electrical Code.
Now, I have nothing against owning the biggest anything in the neighborhood, so I really don't mind if somebody wants to own the biggest honkin PTO generator, or even a 100KVA CAT, but unless you're living in a house with major electrical loads, it just isn't necessary. I've proven it too many times by running a recording Amprobe on the service conductors, most houses rarely draw more than 10 amps per leg on the service.
I personally run 2 houses and my shops on a 7'5 kva machine, and have run both of them on a 3.5 kva. Load balance is more important than load capacity.
For the average guy, a half dozen 3 way switches will more than satisfy his need for a transfer setup, and save him a couple hundred bucks. If all you're worried about is the furnace and freezer, and sump pump, you can do it with a single 3 way and some extension cords.

Trev · Dec 10, 2002

Folks, I'm electrically ignorant ... I notice generators for single phase, double phase, triple phase. What does this mean? Which one do I want to run a normal house?

Thanks yet again!

Bob the clueless

Anonymous Poster · Dec 10, 2002

Trev, you want a single phase generator, turning the lowest number of RPMs you can afford.

Trev · Dec 10, 2002

My sincere thanks to everyone who replied.

I found a reasonable deal on the same setup as Neil got.. 17KW, 35KW surge, 70 amps at 240 volts, 1800 RPM, 515 PTO RPM (seems an odd number.. but I suppose this is good as the tractor doesn't have to run quite as fast). Comes with the whole thing assembled on the trailer, ready to plug & play (or is that plug & pray?) I talked to our electrician, and he will get back to me on a good transfer box solution.. first he needed to know the amperage, etc.

This is probably a lot more than we need for our own house, but it looks like good, solid equipment that will last a lifetime, and if we need to power something serious we can do it.

Now I just need to figure out how best to help out neighbors if we run into an extended outtage. I understand (I think) the issues of making sure the system is NOT on the service line.. I'm a bit more shaky about being clear on the power meter approach to this in the event a state of emergency is declared and this becomes legal. Just pop off the glass meter, and underneath I'll find a house side and a service side? I'll ask our electrician to show me, when he comes out. I'm not sure what type of cable I would need, and how to make sure I'm on the house side rather than the service side. I'm sure it's obvious when you look at it, but I never have.

Anyway, thanks once again for all your great advice!!!

Best to all, and happy holidays!

Bob