Reverse "A" frame on plow

pat32rf · Jan 30, 2011

Over the past few years I have collected almost everything I need to mount a blade on my FEL. While I don't need (or have) a wide blade I do need to wing the snow back beyond the driveway edge and over the edge (a drop-off).
I wondered about reversing the A frame so that the plow actually moved to the side when angled to the right and stuck out beyond the front tires by about 12".
I could still use the trip springs and by slightly offsetting the blade still plow the left tire path when angled to the right.
I am currently using either my rear blower (slow job for 3" of snow) or a rear blade(PIA to switch between blade and blower). Neither one will clear the snow beyond my tire tracks...
If I mount the hinge pin back at the FEL bracket and keep the trip pivot at the blade I think the idea will work as the angle cylinders are still in the same relative spot.????

beenthere · Jan 30, 2011

That is an interesting idea. Are you in a good position to try it and see how well it works?
Might be too much side force on the front of the tractor without considerable added weight.

Do you have the plow on the front now in conventional mode?

I built a wing plow to go on the side of my tractor (left or right) and only put it on when winging the snow back (and then just because the rig doesn't go into the shed easily with the wing attached).

YouTube search on wing_plow to see the slow first test run.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4SJxqzm-hc

pat32rf · Jan 30, 2011

Shouldn't be any more sideways force than you would have on your frame mount plow. The same blade angle, maybe a little farther forward, but a narrower blade from the look of it.
Do the front tire chains help prevent sideways slipping?
What did you use as an anchor point at the rear?
A wing plow would suit me great as long as it could be raised/folded against the right side or removed easy....
(My tractor is a JD4300)
For that matter a blade like yours, mounted slightly offset would work even better

IC Smoke · Jan 30, 2011

Does the wing attach to the 3 point? If it did you could put a hinge type on the front of the blade were it attaches to the tractor and by lifting the 3point you could raise and lower the plow..... just a idea to fab up.

beenthere · Jan 30, 2011

Don't want to pull this off topic, but have some info on the wing plow build at:

http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/john-deere-owning-operating/159770-wing-plow.html

I've found with the wing only plowing, there can be some pushing of the rear wheels, but with the front plow also down there is a counter push that seems to help keep the rig on the straight path.

The width of the wing plow cut is adjusted mechanically with a telescoping push bar at the rear pinned to the drawbar. The push bar is chained to the 3 ph arm and raises/lowers the rear of the wing. The front of the wing is tied to the FEL post (frame mount).

smiley · Jan 30, 2011

This sounds like a heck of an idea.
We had power brooms that did exactly what you're talking about except as I remember them, they had a single cylinder that moved 2 - 18" swing arms (instead of an A frame) sideways, so you could center the broom when it was angled or move it to either side to get closer to curbs or whatever. The broom itself had a seperate angling cylinder.
The only drawback I can think of is that you might have to mess with mounting points of the cylinders or fabricate stops to prevent flopping and possible overextension and bending of cylinders. You might have to experiment with different mounting points for the cylinders and possible individual valves to control them but It's an interesting sounding project and shouldn't cost much other than time to try it.
I did try searching for these sweepers but couldn't find a good photo although this site apparently has them.
Angle Sweepers (Brooms) | Talet Attachments -------- look at the loader mount one under ANGLE BROOM.

pat32rf · Jan 30, 2011

I'm thinking that the forces on the cylinders, angles etc should all be about the same. Just think of mounting the plow on the truck end and the truck (tractor) on the plow end....You would have to beef up the place where the A frame pivots on the FEL mount, just the way a plow blade is beefed up for the pivot point.

JB4310 · Jan 31, 2011

I'm cornfused, need a drawing cause I can't picture it.

My initial thought is no, but that's because I don't understand. When someone doesn't understand something they always so no

JB.

pat32rf · Jan 31, 2011

If you angle the truck plow, it stays pretty well centered with the truck, because the pivot point is close to the plow blade. If you were to drop the "A" frame onto the gound, disconnected from the truck and plow, then switch the plow with the truck you would be putting the pivot point close to the truck instead.
Another way to picture this would be to angle a plow that is on a truck. As the truck goes down the road the plow stays centered, BUT if you stand in front of the angled plow, square on to it, and look at the truck, the front bumper of the truck now seems to be off to the side, even though we are dealing with the same angles, cylinders etc

beenthere · Jan 31, 2011

This is what I picture in my mind that you have in mind. A crude stick drawing (I need to learn sketchup and advance beyond this crude stage using paint). Is it close?

smiley · Jan 31, 2011

After much study, thought and many calculations I retired to my research and development lab and have determined that it will work, but because of the change in geometry, you'll probably need cylinders with a longer stroke than the normal plow angle cylinders. In the normal engineering office to reach this conclusion, would have required 3 engineers, several days and several thousand $$ of time.
But,
Actually, after going out and measuring the plow, I went to the kitchen table and did a scale cardboard cutout and in about 10 minutes this is what comes out.
If you look closely, the cylinders are exactly the same length scale 2 ft and 3 ft, but with the reversed A frame the 2 ft one does not reach the blade and the angle is no where near the regular A frame. It absolutely does offset the blade by over 6" and it isn't fully angled as shown.
The other sketch is the broom offsetting mechanism I mentioned previously, just food for thought.
Give it a try, you can always turn the A frame back around!!!

smiley · Feb 1, 2011

In playing with that scale model a little further this morning, It looks like standard angle cylinders might work, but they will always be extended a little further than normal and you might have to move the mounting points out slightly.
When a regular 8 ft plow is fully angled, the edge of the plow will be slightly less than 4 ft from center. With the A frame reversed it will be about 5 1/4 ft from center, so you would definately gain winging ability.
FWIW
Because I have an 8 ft front mount snowblower, I don't need to build any of this but it's fun to study these ideas out and It got me thinking that years ago I had a 6 ft drag behind blower, that came from the factory with a detachable 3 ft extension wing to widen with. My backblade can also be offset about 3 ft to either side which I tried too. Niether method worked great because it tended to pull the front wheels into the bank. However, if you had a plow on the front, it should offset the drag on the back.

JB4310 · Feb 1, 2011

It's always good to think about ways to modify things, but IMO I don't think it would be worth the effort for that 1.25 ft wing plus it would be limited in height, a wing would usualy allow for greater height to cut along the top of existing banks.

Don't let me discourage your creative spirit though

Got me thinking, how about with a standard A-frame setup, offset the mounts. Mounting the left hole of plow's A-frame in the right side of the vehicles undercarriage. You would need a structural member from the left undercarriage mount pin forward to the A- frame. If you could picture that.

There may be clearance issues with front wheels on tractors, the max wing out would be the width of the undercarriage's pin's spacing and still limited in height.

JB.

beenthere · Feb 1, 2011

pat32rf
Thinking about this some more, maybe you can gain just as much wing affect by going to a longer blade on the front with conventional "A" frame. Instead of a 6' blade, use an 8' blade. I have a 7' blade on my JD 4300 now, and feel it could handle an 8' blade almost as well.

But with the snow we are getting now and the drifting from the high winds, having that wing blade worked fantastic this morning winging 5' windrow (berm) of snow back further on each pass. Reaching out over the ditch edge is a bonus when trying to hold the drifting to a minimum.
Made short work of the 1/4 mile plowing job. More coming and higher winds predicted.

pat32rf · Feb 5, 2011

Been out of town a few days, (Gave my Wife tickets to Allan Jackson concert for Christmas, not knowing that it would be on the eave of the biggest storm in 19 years ) but JB's response kicked my brain back in gear.
The front mount plow would be going on my FEL, If I mount it on the fork bracket, then I can just move it side to side by pulling two pins !!! Save a lot of re-inventing the wheel.
I want to keep things as light as possible as most of the time its only for quickly moving 2-4" of snow. That bit that isn't worth blowing but should be cleaned up before it gets packed into ruts.

Duffster · Feb 5, 2011

That is going to put a tremendous side torque/load on your loader.

JB4310 · Feb 5, 2011

pat32rf said:
The front mount plow would be going on my FEL, If I mount it on the fork bracket, then I can just move it side to side by pulling two pins !!! Save a lot of re-inventing the wheel.

Get out your card board and scissors

Being on the loader solves the height problem, but I agree with Duff your loader is not gonna be happy, and if your machine is an average size CUT it may become a little unstable. Maybe some counter weight?

Duffster said:
That is going to put a tremendous side torque/load on your loader.

beenthere · Feb 5, 2011

pat32rf
How soon do you plan to start fabricating? Hope soon so you can try it out yet this year. For 2-4" snow, should not be a "side-force" problem. And you will be able to find out just how much more snow the rigging will handle before switching to the blower.

I don't see any major reason to not give it a good shot unless it is money or time.

(and those are both important)

Anxious here to find out how well it works.
I built my wing plow with some real doubt that it really would pan out. As it happened, couldn't be happier with it.

Go for it!

cotter · Feb 6, 2011

I think you are going to have problems with most truck mounted snow plows. The A frame is mounted to the quadrant and the quadrant is mounted to the blade and spreads the force out, allows the spring break over. http://library.westernplows.com/westernplows/pdf/13275_020395.pdf Not to say impossible but you will have a good deal of fabrication work to do. A Curtis plow has a much wider quadrant with that should be easier to work with http://cdn.dreamingcode.com/public/72/Sno-Pro_3000_Install_Manual-72-1147-1.pdf warning 14mb. It would/could be a nonissue if you are building from the ground up.
Chad