R1s vs R4s for full size utility--nut orchard and haymaking

[SilverbackMP]

I apologize for this post; I know the R1 vs R4 discussion has been discussed ad nausem (sp?) on tractorbynet (I may be new but I've read pretty much 3-4 years worth of threads in most of the subforums). Most of the R1 vs R4 discussion revolve are CUTs and general "estate" use and I haven't found the answer to my specific question (yes, I used the search feature).

I am planning on putting in 30 acres of either improved black walnut (for nut production) or chinese chestunuts on the 45 acres that I just purchased. I also plan on buying more land (100 or acres) in the next 3-5 years and will be buying additional acreage every five years.

The terrain is basically flat to slightly rolling, marginal farm ground, 3 ft clay loam top soil transitioning to clay--typical north central Missouri land (typical "CRP" ground). I may intercrop between the trees (30 ft centers) with hay production (probably red clover/timothy mix) and possibly (unlikely) no till or minimum till wheat/soybeans.

I'm concerned about rutting the field with Ag tires. Once the the trees start producing a crop, I will need to get into the fields at the critical times to mow, harvest etc and I will need flat, non-rutted ground to facilitate harvesting.

Do you think R4s would better suit my proposed operation? Tractor will be 60-90 hp utility--probably Kubota or Massey.

Thanks

 

[whistlepig]

As if this hasn't been beaten to death. Tire type doesn't have anything to do with ruts. Same size tire and same weight. R4's wear like iron and ride like iron. R4's a bit more gentile on the grass mowing. R1's ride better and have better traction in the mean stuff. Pick your poison.

 

[Reg]

As if this hasn't been beaten to death. Tire type doesn't have anything to do with ruts. Same size tire and same weight. R4's wear like iron and ride like iron. R4's a bit more gentile on the grass mowing. R1's ride better and have better traction in the mean stuff. Pick your poison.

Except that for same/similar tractor they are typically NOT the same width.
R4s are about 40 to 50% wider - for a couple of sample tractors that I happen to be familiar with.
The R4s also run at lower pressure - & by implication exert lower ground pressure.
IF you want to load them the R4 will take about 40% more fluid... and I really do NOT know how/where that fits (or not) in the whole traction argument.
According to what KIND of muck you contemplate being stuck in... there are cases where the wider R4 is more likely to "carry you across" and the R1 sink in.

Anyway, I agree on the wear factor.
I also agree that this has been hacked to pieces too many times already.
Get a set of each - that is my usual answer.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Hacked to death yes...but usually hacked to death by guys with subcut or CUTs with 3-20 acres. I haven't seen too many R1 vs R4 discussions for real Ag work. Why? Most farmers grew up running the same type of operation that they current farm. They already know the answer. I didn't grow up farming; although I have row crop farmer relatives.

Also there arent' too many nut orchard operators in the area for me to ask. There is one decent sized northern pecan/gamma grass seed/buffalo farm near my place, pecan groves about 50 miles away from my place, and apple orchards 120 miles from my place (towards KC--Lexington, MO area). On top of that, I'm currently in the Army in Seoul, Korea and I plan on buying my tractor while I'm home on leave in November (Deer Season).

Therefore, I don't have access to too many nut orchard mentors at the present time. If I did, I would get their advice in person. I've got a small window of opportunity to buy my tractor and get it right the first time. Like I said, I've read three years or better past threads in almost all subforums and the simple questions that may involve a Kubota BX operating on a 3 acre farmette may not apply to bigger farm work.

Back to my question. I've never seen R4s on farm tractors in my area but most farmers in my area are either full row crop or 1/2 row crop and 1/2 beef. I'm leaning towards R4s because, from what I understand, the nut harversting equipment likes smooth ground. I'm hoping not too have too many issues with getting stuck as I plan on never/rarley tilling/discing/plowing and keeping a thick stand of sod/grass/clover between the trees and by minimizing tractor use on the orchard floor when the ground is saturated. I'm hoping that R4s would minimize rutting if per chance harvest season (Aug/Sep) had higher than average rainfall and I had to take the tractor on the field. That being said, I know skinnier and knobbier is better--at least on pickups (despite current practices by most of the 4x4 hobbiests). A set of 7.50 bias ply will go places 40" super swampers will not. The skinner tires dig in (if they find a bottom) and go while the fat tires just spin. However, the skinney bias ply will leave some pretty dang deep ruts.

I'm hoping to have around 300-400 acres (not necessarily continous or one parcel and not counting another 200 acres that I should inherit a long time from now) within about a 5-7 mile radius by the time I retire--with the bulk planted in nut groves. Almost ALL of my spare cash will be spent/invested toward infrastructure over the course of the next 13 years so that by the time production starts and I am on miltary retirement I will not owe anything/very little on any equipment/buildings/land/capital improvements/house, etc.

I'm leaning toward black walnut rather than chestunts although return per acre would be signifcantly less but they don't require irrigation or refrigeration (losta infrastructure $s) unlike the chestnuts. Pecans normally require expensive bottom land and they are the smaller (but better tasting) northern varities and I can buy double or better "marginal" row crop land for the price of good bottom ground. Anybody have any other input? I'm hoping that a TBN member may have actual nut orchard experience or other orchard experience to share.

I'm hoping to have a big enough operation to leave to any future children and to have it a big enough business to make it worth their time to leave it intact as a family business and not bust it apart after I die. I believe it is far enough out in the boonies to avoid housing development invasions. My grandmother on my mother's side still has some row crop farms (in CRP) in the area, my great grandfather on my dad's side used to have a farm about three miles down the road (since strip mined for coal and reclaimed), and the rest of my ancestors used to own the bulk of the area in either farms, plantations, or small coal mines (Terrills, Gillispies, Halls, Shiftletts, Quinns); its in the blood. I should have made a seperate thread for this, I suppose.

Thanks for any assistance with this.

PS. The Universtity of MO Agro Forestry department is really pushing/advocating both black walnut, chestnut, and pecan production. I want to go that direction because I think it will be decent money coupled with a military retirement and I can afford to wait until the trees reach maturity and have a marketable crop. I can't afford the thousands of acres needed to get into row crops and I probably will never want livestock, although I would enjoy it (too hard to leave home for an extended period).

 

[Reg]

I wasn't attacking YOU for starting yet another R1 vs R4 thread, I agree your context is different to that of many of the other threads.

As we know the BIG thing bout R1s is that they have WAY less tendency to load up when in deep clay, they can DIG for a bottom - until they either find it or til down to the axles.
From your description of what you will be doing it seems very unlikely that the R1 advantage will apply to you. The lower ground pressure and better wear characteristics of R4s, with adequate traction for the conditions you described would seem to be your best choice.

We all want to "get it right" the first time, but a poor tire choice doesn't mean having to take a huge loss by trading the whole tractor 6, 12, or 24 months from now.
It really COULD BE a sane strategy to buy the tractor with a set of both rim & tire types.
Using the R1s for initial clearing, planting, "field work" and switching to the R4s when the soil is settled again and ground cover is established.

I switch seasonally between R4s and Turfs on one of my tractors, that works for me and I have all settled land.
I can still plow, disk and rototil WITHOUT a set of R1s for that tractor, but I don't have to get out and do field work before the last frost, I can wait for dry conditions.

From memory.... no guarantees... I think there have been some posts on orchard and nut farming from European contributors.
Landini tractors might have been the "topic" ? probably worth a search.

There is a way to search tbn from outside; I think you can use google for phrase or multi word searches and specify /site=tractorbynet ? ...something like that.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Go with a good R1 radial like Michelin and don't worry. Tell the tire dealer what you need and they will get you the proper tire. The R1 radial gives you plenty of traction while not compacting the soil like a bias and it rides a lot better also.

This shouldn't be a R1 vs R4 discussion since for your use it should be a bias vs radial discussion.

 

[SilverbackMP]

Reg,

I might end up buying an extra set of rims and tires. The only isssue would be that if I'm overseas, my father will be running the tractor and I am hoping to keep it as simple as possible for him. He will be mowing only (paid)--I'm planning on a 8-10' flail. I don't mind not haying some if not most years--I figure mulching the timothy/red clover mix with the flail will building humus and add N and perhaps lower fertilizer bills and I wouldn't be removing too many trace elements.

If I'm stationed back in the states, I can do other stuff--manhandle implements, etc. The second set of rims/tires may be more of a possibility when I get a pole barn built in a few years to put my tools, shop equipment, etc.

I search tractorbynet via google by typing in a phrase followed by tractorbynet--usually gets me fairly close.

Richard,

I now remember seeing a thread or two where you mentioned the Michelins--basically wide tires with an almost R1 tread (but not as deep) if I remember correctly. I will see about getting them installed when I order my tractor. I was going to buy used but with the incentives and financing going on right now I can't see not going new and getting a warrenty and peace of mind of knowing the service history from the beginning.

Thanks for the assistance fellas.

 

[chh]

I'd second the recommendation for R-1 radials. My MF 5455 has them on it from the factory. It is my first experience with radial tractor tires and so far I am impressed.

 

[Reg]

There are also "tween" tires.
R4 sort of width with R1 type of tread - I resist typing "Hybrid".
I think Firestoneag.com and Goodyearag.com (which now goes to Titan) both show them.

 

[slowzuki]

You need a good radial. Get the largest tire size offered for the model. The dealer won't always have them on the lot. If ruts are a problem, get the lightest model that will pull what you need.

R-4's for big tractors are not any wider and are usually smaller diameter which means worse rutting. In wet clay you may need to look at a crawler if you need to get in while its really wet. One of those Kubota M8540 crawlers or an italian model.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

There are also "tween" tires.
R4 sort of width with R1 type of tread - I resist typing "Hybrid".
I think Firestoneag.com and Goodyearag.com (which now goes to Titan) both show them.

I think your referring to the R1W. I think the Michelin XM-108 is a super wide tire designed to fit a standard rim.

 

[scrapironford]

I agree with the R1 RADIALS also for your situation NO fluid in the tires. If you need extra weight use wheel ( cast iron ) weights. The taller and wider the radial tire, the less air it requires to cary the load, the contact patch on the ground is larger resulting in less psi on the ground to make ruts or compact the soil. Typical large radials in light draft work are only run at 6-8 psi, the resulting ground pressure is only about 2-3 psi above the tires air pressure. The size tractor you are talking about 100HP, is going to weigh about 11,000 lb bare, you will looking at 600 plus series metric radials on a 38in rim at the smallest. You donot want row crop (18.4) tires unless you are willing to put duall wheels on. Think about ruts it equals compaction of soil not good for roots of your crop (trees) John Deere has a booklet "A practical guide to optimizing tractor performance" it is very full, almost to much, of information on tires and ballast. scrapironford

 

[SilverbackMP]

I'm thinking about a cabbed Kubota M9540. This should be enough tractor to handle round bales or square bales if I decided to intercrop but yet a little lighter than the other manufacturers. I am I correct? At some point I will get a second tractor--probably equivalent to a larger opened stationed Kubota L.

I was going to go John Deere since that is was 80% of the folks in my area use but after looking at the megadealership's used prices online, they left a bad taste in my mouth. Their asking price for used machinery is about 30% higher than other John Deere dealers in other parts of Missouri. Also, I'm not liking the "get big or get out" attitude from Deere towards its dealers. If I don't go with the Kubota, I will probably go with Massey. New Holland is not too popular in my area; the only New Holland equipment that I've seen around has been older combines. I like the fact that Kubota makes most of it's own equipment.

If I do get into haying in a couple of years I will have to decide if I want to go with square bales on a large scale or round bales--I will talk with local farmer connections. I will probably buy all new equipment since I will only be able to work this on long weekends after I commute several hundred miles (after I return to the states--I'm going to try to remain stationed at Fort Riley, KS, or Fort L. Wood, MO). I will probably wait until I have more land before I get into the haying portion to justify the equipment purchase and for economies of scale.

Perhaps the smartest course of action would be to lease out the hay portion real cheap to a local farmer for the next 5-10 years; I would take minimal money in exchange for the upkeep of fertilizers and other inputs. I don't know if anyone would want to mess with it since they would have to work around the trees. However, the trees would be on 30' centers w/ 6-8 ft of land scaping cloth and mulch around each tree; I believe that it could be hayed without too many issues (but I'm somewhat ignorant on this). This would save me having to buy a big tractor right now (would still buy a used 40-50 hp for other work) and my father wouldn't have to mow throughout the summer.

I also have an opportunity cost of $3,500-4,000 a year for cash rent that I could receive with keeping it in row crops.

My big worry is trying to figure out how to satisfy the IRS that this is not a hobby farm since it will take at least 10 years before I have a marketable nut crop. I would like to be able to write off expenses/depreciation that I will be due without running a foul of their 3 out of 5 year profit check.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

I like the fact that Kubota makes most of it's own equipment.

Agco, Case-New Holland and Deere all make their own equipment also. Agco owns Sisu for their in house engine, CNH has Iveco for their engines and Deere has their own engines as well. Also, these three also make all their own implements as well. Deere branched out some with the Frontier line but for the most part their implements are mainly made by themselves. All three have a complete line of hay equipment as well as planting equipment and harvesters.

 

[slowzuki]

Generally if you have a business plan that maps out a reasonable route to profit, you can't be called a hobby. Lots of companies lose money for 10-15 years before realizing their incomes.

The kubota's are lighter and at least in Canada can be bought with big radials. I think you will find haying to be a pain in the rows. A front mounted disc mower and round baling or inline square baling would certainly reduce the pain as the equipment would not be offset. Haying on weekends is likely not going to work. Start watching the weather this year and keep notes as if you were haying.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

Generally if you have a business plan that maps out a reasonable route to profit, you can't be called a hobby. Lots of companies lose money for 10-15 years before realizing their incomes.

The kubota's are lighter and at least in Canada can be bought with big radials. I think you will find haying to be a pain in the rows. A front mounted disc mower and round baling or inline square baling would certainly reduce the pain as the equipment would not be offset. Haying on weekends is likely not going to work. Start watching the weather this year and keep notes as if you were haying.

I think you can spec radials on any of the OEM's. I am not sure how it works though if you want to buy a specific brand/type though as I have never had to deal with it.

I agree with haying in the orchard. One concern I have is how tight is the canopy going to be? As you and I know you need sunlight and air flow to help hay to dry in a good time frame. trying to hay in an orchard with a heavy canopy would be very hard on getting good dry hay. Also, how tall would the trees be? As far as how would you get the hay out from under the trees.

 

[ddivinia]

I'm thinking about a cabbed Kubota M9540. This should be enough tractor to handle round bales or square bales if I decided to intercrop but yet a little lighter than the other manufacturers. I am I correct? At some point I will get a second tractor--probably equivalent to a larger opened stationed Kubota L.
-------


M9540 will handle round bales no problem. Just ballast the tractor properly.

You might find you can do it all with that size tractor - good all around rig.


I was going to go John Deere since that is was 80% of the folks in my area use but after looking at the megadealership's used prices online, they left a bad taste in my mouth.
-----

Prices online and what you can buy them for aren't always the same. Also, many times these used tractors have a lot of add ons that they don't list.



Their asking price for used machinery is about 30% higher than other John Deere dealers in other parts of Missouri. Also, I'm not liking the "get big or get out" attitude from Deere towards its dealers. If I don't go with the Kubota, I will probably go with Massey. New Holland is not too popular in my area; the only New Holland equipment that I've seen around has been older combines. I like the fact that Kubota makes most of it's own equipment.
-----

There are lots of good tractors out there. There is more to it than just price. The dealer, parts availability, ergonomics, etc.




If I do get into haying in a couple of years I will have to decide if I want to go with square bales on a large scale or round bales--I will talk with local farmer connections. I will probably buy all new equipment since I will only be able to work this on long weekends after I commute several hundred miles (after I return to the states--I'm going to try to remain stationed at Fort Riley, KS, or Fort L. Wood, MO). I will probably wait until I have more land before I get into the haying portion to justify the equipment purchase and for economies of scale.
------

I bought haying equipment last year and I bought all used. I talked to my dealer and he kept an eye out for the right trade in for me. It worked out fine and I saved a bundle of money. The reality is unless you are a custom baler - you will never wear out haying equipment even if it is used (unless it is shot from day one).




Perhaps the smartest course of action would be to lease out the hay portion real cheap to a local farmer for the next 5-10 years; I would take minimal money in exchange for the upkeep of fertilizers and other inputs. I don't know if anyone would want to mess with it since they would have to work around the trees. However, the trees would be on 30' centers w/ 6-8 ft of land scaping cloth and mulch around each tree; I believe that it could be hayed without too many issues (but I'm somewhat ignorant on this). This would save me having to buy a big tractor right now (would still buy a used 40-50 hp for other work) and my father wouldn't have to mow throughout the summer.
------

Time is a factor, but get somebody you can trust. My problem with the custom guys is that stuff was never done at the right time and rarely done right. Spraying done too late. Bales too loose. Hay cut late, etc.

I have a JD 5525 cab for my cutting and baling. We bought a JD 4520 cab last year for raking and other general use. If you size the implements properly, you do not have to have a 150hp row crop tractor for what you want to do.



I also have an opportunity cost of $3,500-4,000 a year for cash rent that I could receive with keeping it in row crops.
-----

That might be worth it. How many acres? You will find you have more work than time so if you can break things up and work on that portion last - it might be the right call. I kep part of my place leased out while I worked on other portions. I don't lease any of it now.




My big worry is trying to figure out how to satisfy the IRS that this is not a hobby farm since it will take at least 10 years before I have a marketable nut crop. I would like to be able to write off expenses/depreciation that I will be due without running a foul of their 3 out of 5 year profit check.

-----

Don't over think it - you are on the right track.

Good luck,
D.

 

[Reg]

A couple of thoughts, maybe BOTH are irrelevant/useless ? (-:

1) About hay bale size and shape.
It might be better to think through this from the direction of WHO you will be selling to.
Better than thinking it through from the direction of your end - how you would like to make them.
"Know your market, know your customer", etc.

2) This is ABSOLUTE hearsay and I am considering my source (-:
With all the respect I have for the Amish - and I do...
Supposedly in SOME communities they can use tractors, diesel tractors anyway.
I didn't have a lot of trouble believing that, since somewhere else I had heard that the objection to gasoline powered tractors is primarily about spark plugs and the generation of electricity for them.
This is what I found "curious" - RUBBER !
Supposedly they can NOT have rubber tired tractors and there is a whole market need for solid steel tractor wheels on brand new JD tractors, at least in PA.
I may have this wrong, it might be more about the compressed air IN the tires.
If true it MIGHT be of interest to this thread, i.e. IF there is a large Amish community nearby and IF they permit steel/iron wheel tractors...... there could be a lot of take-off wheel sets available.

OTOH, even if true maybe they are special orders that come through without wheels anyway.

Anyone in PA know about this ?
Having heard, it I'm curious.
I was down in Kirkwood last week and saw a team of three Belgians and another pair working a field, an absolute picture postcard scene, but their life is HARD WORK.

 

[Robert_in_NY]

A couple of thoughts, maybe BOTH are irrelevant/useless ? (-:

1) About hay bale size and shape.
It might be better to think through this from the direction of WHO you will be selling to.
Better than thinking it through from the direction of your end - how you would like to make them.
"Know your market, know your customer", etc.
.

You are right in that he needs to see what his market is going to be but at the same time if his market is small square bales he is going to have to figure out if he is going to be able to get his equipment through there and how he is going to get the hay out. There is a lot to consider but regardless an inline system is the best option and that can be bought in small square, large square and round bale. Getting the hay out of the orchard may be his biggest challenge depending on how much room he ultimately has once the orchard is planted and growing. It is very hard to turn a tractor the size he wants in a 30' area so everything is most likely going to have to go out the ends of the rows.

 

[SilverbackMP]

The first chunk of land is 45 acres with between 35 and 40 acres currently tillable. I wanted bigger acerage but I would really like to get something going sooner than latter and this came on the market. It's only 3 miles to my parents who live on a slice of one by grandmother's CRP farms (180-200 acres) that I will inherit (hopefully a long time from now). It also has blacktop frontage which will be good for the wife. Also, some of the local farmers are friends of the family. I will use this chunk of land for my initial planting and for a base of operations for a lack of a better term.

Future plans include a 6-8 acre lake w/ 150+ acre watershed off adjacent property. I'm not too concerned about the watershed disappearing as it is owned by the powerplant cooperative (who has 3 or 4 additional plants). Years ago they bought a bunch of land in the area to stripmine coal. They no longer mine in the area due to high sulfer content (now it is imported all the way from Wyoming--how green is that?). They have sold off some land in the past but I don't see them selling off much more until the carbon credit fiasco is played out. If they do sell it, I will buy it.

I plan on putting my future residence and machineshed(s) and shop on this land as well.

I will be buying additional 50-100 acre parcels within a 3-5 mile radius every 5-7 years as they come up for sale. I know bigger chunks are usually less per acre but I don't want to bite off more than I can chew. Also, I despise interest charges. I have a 20 year loan on this 45 acres but I have it budgeted to be paid off in 3 years.

The plan is to initially plant at 30' either with black walnut or chestnut; these would get thinned by 1/2 in 20-30 years. I could make it a bit wider one direction if it would help to intercrop. The farm has roads on 3 sides with all three having powerline right of ways so at least at the edges, turn around spots are kind of built in. The pecan/buffalo/gamma grass operation that I spoke of before used to intercrop corn and beans between his pecan trees when they were smaller. I really don't want to intercrop via tillage and risk disturbing new root growth. Plus I would have to find somebody with an older, smaller combine to harvest.

I could intercrop with berries but not every row--say 5 rows of trees and then a wide space for the berries, and then five more rows of trees, etc. However, I would either be looking at lotsa $ in two different kinds of mechanical harversters or a whole lot of bunk space for the "guest worker" program. That and Missouri doesn't have wholesale berry buyers like Michigan or Wisconsin.

I am also considering putting about 5 acres into "hoop" houses and growing organic melons .

If I hay, I'm assuming that I could go either direction with the small bales vs round bales. There are plenty of beef farmers in the area, some dairies, and a little closer to the regional hub (Columbia, MO) there are plenty of "farmettes" with the typical horse(s) pinned into too small of an area.

I am currently building the vision that I see for the farm in google sketchup and will post some jpgs after I get it closer to finished product.

Thanks for the help/suggestions.