Question about purchasing L4400 HST

[photogman]

I'm pretty sure tomorrow I'm going to order an L4400 HST with a Kubota FEL and a block heater. I eventually want to get a grapple, but that's down a road a ways. If I do get a grapple, I may move some dead trees (8" diameter approx.-some a little larger) to clean up my 16 acres (half in timber). My main use will be clearing a little bit of snow in the winter (Iowa), some mowing of prairie grass, clearing some small dogwood and large sumac, and general maintenance of my acreage. Since it will be coming brand new, should I order remotes on it from the factory? If so, how many? A couple rear remotes?

Also, I've been following a lot of posts on here about the sizes of brush hogs that various tractors can handle. I would like a medium duty to knock some some big sumac and dogwood, which can measure 2-3 inches in diameter. So I was thinking the biggest I could go would be a 5 footer if it was a medium duty (because of weight the three point could comfortably lift). Am I being realistic? I'm afraid a light duty brush hog couldn't tackle the dogwood and sumac. My DR Fields walk behind 17 hp Kawasaki can handle most of them, but I get very tired manhandling it because I'm going to have a heart valve replaced soon and it catching up to me a bit. It will sure be nice to have a new Kubota.

 

[swampvol]

With a lift capacity of 2300lb/24" and (Im guessing for a hydro) ~35 pto hp, that it should handle a 6ft. medium duty hog with no problem. I think its a perfect fit for the 4400.

 

[Bob_Young]

Photogman,
You are right-on with the bush hog issue. Yes, the lifting capability of the 3PH seems to imply that a medium duty 6 footer will be just fine, but tain't so. The Operator's manual has a table that will tell you the maximum recommended size & weight for a 3PH mounted rotary cutter and you will find that for the L4400 it is 880#. They really should include these tables with the specs they list for the tractors on the web and elsewhere.

I've posted this story here before, but I'll repeat the tale for the benefit of others. It does make the point that tractor specs. have to be taken with a large grain of salt.

I bought a 6' med. duty Woods BB720 (1200#) with my L4300. The 4300 is the predecessor to the L4400 and virtually identical in terms of power, weight, size and capability. The dealer warned me that the 4300 wasn't quite enough tractor for that mower and he was right. I went ahead with it because I figured the Ford 4000 would be my fallback point, and it was.

First of all, the tractor does have enough power to run it and the 3PH IS strong enough to lift it. Those aren't the issues. What's at issue is the balance of the combination and (in my case, at least) a 3PH dimensional problem that makes hook-ups very difficult.

With the 720 on the back, it feels like the tail is wagging the dog. The center of gravity of the mower is centered on or near the gearbox which is at least 3 ft. aft of the end of the 3PH arms. The combination of weight (mass) and long moment arm tends to raise the front of the tractor when the mower is raised. You'll need to have the FEL on to keep the front down when you lift the mower....either that or a lot of weights up front. Folks say, you only lift when transporting, so no big deal. I say, if you have to jerk the mower up to get it off a rock, limb, or stump, the last thing you want is to lose steering when the front bounces up instead.

On fast sharp turns, the momentum of the mower can be felt and you wonder how well the 3PH structure is standing up to the stress. I could envision situations where smacking a stump during a sharp turn with that mower might damage the 3PH mounting structure.

Lastly, the BB720 mower is borderline Class II 3PH. To better control the mass of the mower, the pins are spaced further apart and the (non-telescoping) 3PH arms on the L4300 won't open up enough in width to get over the ends of the pins. I normally have to disassemble one side of the tractor 3PH to get the arms on at hook up. Same thing when unhitching. Once they're on the pins, the width is sufficient, but hitching/unhitching is a bear. Going with Pat's EZ change isn't really an option as it places the mass of the mower another 3-4" aft and you feel it even more when operating.

A 5' Med. Duty mower would be a much better choice. They're still really heavy, but the moment arm of the C.G. will be about 6" less which will help. The Woods BB600 comes in at 1000# so it's still, technically, a bit too heavy. Possibly a Rhino, Bush Hog or JD MX 5 footer would get you closer to the 880# stated maximum. I will say that it is very comforting to have a med. duty mower on when you wade into the heavy stuff. Woods has a new beefed up version of their standard duty mowers out. Think they're called Standard-Xtreme Duty or some such. Lots of HD features without all the weight. Might be worth looking at.

Since your usage is almost identical to mine, I'll include a link to what I use for a grapple on the FEL bucket. It's called the Weslor Brush Claw and it's bolted to the bucket. I got it because it's light, can stay on the bucket all the time, provides bucket load roll-back protection when not in use, and it's manufactured locally. You might have to select "Brush Claw" from a pull-down menu to get to the right screens:
W e s L o r...Excellence in Metal Processing
It's worked out quite well, cause it's always there for me. Don't have a bucket quick-tach on my FEL so a dedicated grapple would've been a pain.

Sorry this is so long. Drank too much coffee this morning and it gave me keyboard diarrhea.
FWIW
Bob

 

[N80]

Photogman, if you want rear remotes, order them from the factory. They are very expensive but when I bought my L4400 there were NO aftermarket options for remotes. I just got one set. This will allow me to use my pull-type mower (which I never use), or a dump trailer, or better yet, a hydraulic top link, if I ever get around to getting one. But, if you envision a hydraulic top link and an implement that will need hydraulics, then get two. As it is, my one set rarely gets used but I'm glad I have it.

As for the medium duty mower, think about this real good. As mentioned, others can confirm that the tractor can handle units heavier than the owners manual recommends. My concern with the spec is not whether the tractor can lift the implement OR whether the tractor can be balanced properly. Both are possible. Again, my concern is that carrying a heavy implement with the CG way out back and hitting a bump. I don't know about you, but there isn't a smooth place anywhere on my property and implements get bounced, sometimes even when you are trying to be careful. Even implements within specs can bounce hard enough to make the tractor lurch and puts tremendous stress on the hitch. The bigger the implement, the bigger the stress. This can cause things to break internally and we see pics here from time to time where the lift arm strips the splines off the lift shaft. Either way, it can be a pricey affair.

Second, going to a 5 footer has pros and cons. The weight will definitely be more manageable, but you are losing a foot of cut width. That may not sound like a big deal but once the brush is cleared you will not need the umph of a medium duty and it is just going to take you longer to mow with a 5 vs a 6. That might not be a big deal, but it adds up. Also consider that many light duty mowers are rated to 2". My JD LX-6 is rated only to 1" brush but I knock down 2" stuff all the time. So just weigh all this out in your mind and decide. Light duty will save you money and time and might even handle the brushy stuff without putting any undue stress on the tractor. Medium duty will handle the big stuff perfectly and do just as well with the light stuff, but it will cost more, take longer to mow than a larger light duty and possibly stress the tractor. I doubt you can go wrong either way, just get what you need. You can also consider a pull type mower. They are great and they put no stress on thie hitch system. Biggest drawback is that they just don't turn as well in tighter spaces.

Good luck.

 

[Crash101]

Photogman.
You, like everyone else, need a tractor for specific purposes. The size of your property puts the 4400 near the top of the consideration list, and now that they are available with the HST it seems nearly ideal. Nearly that is. I almost bought one with the loader and backhoe a month or so ago, but the more I looked the more I desired the Grand L series. When one buys a "larger" estate tractor like the 4400, one needs more PTO power, perhaps more wheel power, more capabilities and more weight. Or do we?
You mention snow removal. I grew up in Iowa and remember those winters well. Yes snow removal might be high up on the list. But do you need a front mounuted snow blower or front blade capability? You wish to have a heavier rotary cutter and certainly wish to be able to handle one as wide as the rear wheels. These 2 needs would have me looking at the grand L series rather than the L4400. They have more 3 point lifting cability and have mid PTO options. The loaders will have quick disconnects to allow other attachments, and in general will provide more all around useability. That 4400 HST is not going to be cheap and should you buy one and discover a L3540 or L3540 would perform your chores much better, trading it for one will be expensive (believe me). That 0 percent is mighty attractive for a new tractor, but it knocks the demand for a low hour used one right out the window.
That L3540 or 3940 won't be much more $$ than the 4400 HST, if any, but they are much more convienient. That HP number by itself can be impressive but in reality the ability for the tractor to utilize that number is what seperates the ideal tractor from the rest and those Grand L series are much better at that than the old standard L series.

 

[Bob_Young]

A 'back of the envelope' calculation on this (beats working on taxes ):

Recommended maximum rotary cutter for L4400 is 6 ft. and 880 lbs.
C.G. of mower would be approximately 36" aft of 3PH lift pins
Moment generated by 6'/880# mower @ 36" = 36 * 880 = 31,680 inch lbs.

For a 5' mower, C.G. would be 2.5 ft. = 30" aft of 3PH lift pins
Assuming a 31,680 inch lb moment is 'maximum' recommended for the 3PH, then
Maximum weight for a 5' mower would be 31680/30 = 1056 lbs.

By not hanging out the back so far, the 5 footer can be a little heavier.

 

[N80]

Crash101 makes a good point. To be honest, I did not understand Kubota making an L4400 with HST. (Although LOTS of other people really think it is a great idea.) But, I always viewed the L4400 as an economy tractor for folks that wanted or needed a fair amount of HP and were willing to sacrifice other features and niceties to get it. Horsepower and price are what, in my opinion, characterize the L4400. Adding HST trims the HP (a little) and bumps the price.

I felt like I needed the 45 hp of the L4400 (even though at the time I only vaguely guessed at this need). As it turns out, the HP was actually very important to my needs (plowing, disking, land clearing with the FEL, etc).

So, back to Crash101's thoughts: With a lower HP Grand L you might be able to get a slightly smaller, slightly less HP tractor with HST, some nicer features and potentially better lift capacities for about the same amount of money.

Consider the Grand L3430 HST. You get 27 PTO hp vs around 34 for the L4400 HST. Yet, its lift capacity at the 3 pt hitch (24" back) is 2650 pounds vs 2310 on the L4400. The pump capacity (total) on the 3430 is 13.2 gpm vs 12.5 on the L4400. The 3430 weighs 3305 vs 3153 on the L4400. Plus the 3430 comes with all the niceties of a Grand L. And the 3430 can obviously pull plows, disks, etc too.

At the same time, if you feel like YOU need all the HP the L4400 gives and you NEED HST, then the L4400 remains a great option.

 

[photogman]

All of you make very compelling arguments. I'm not interested in "fancy", only power, including drive train components...i.e. 3point, weight limits for lifting, both FEL, and rear. I've got a very rare prairie remnant in the Loess Hills that's never been tilled with tons of rare forbs and nice prairie grass, so I don't want a ton of weight on it, yet I like the horsepower a L4400 offers. I'm open to discussing the Grand L series, but I don't know what they offer at a similar price point/performance as the L4400. Comments anyone?

Would a similar Grand L cost the same as a L4400 with FEL, block heater, and two rear remotes?

Thanks guys! Your help is invaluable!

 

[N80]

Would a similar Grand L cost the same as a L4400 with FEL, block heater, and two rear remotes?

No. A Grand L with 45hp and HST is likely to cost more than an L4400 with HST. Probably a good bit but that's just a guess.

Again, its the geared model L4400 that really sets itself apart from the field in terms of price. You could compare it to virtually any other 45 hp tractor of any brand, including the newer imports, and it typically cost less and had an edge on specs.

But adding HST is likely to narrow that price difference. The Grand L 4330 would be the closest in terms of HP. It would be nice to know the difference in price between it and the L4400 HST. I really have no idea how big the difference is.

In my (sometimes twisted) logic, if I were planning on spending the money for an HST Grand L with 45+ hp, I'd skip the Grand Ls and go right to the M5040 for a similar price (but without HST). But then I don't need HST (yet....my left knee has been a little rheumy lately ).

 

[photogman]

George, I'm kinda where you're at....you seem like you could live without all the frills and was interested in raw performance and a great value. I know that ....just a little more money you could have this and that and pretty soon, you've easily priced yourself right out of a new Kubota (at least for me that could be true). Reminds me of when I ordered my Ford F350 4x4...just a little more and you could have the sunroof or the King Ranch leather seats. At some point, there really is no end to the list of options you could pile on. I feel lucky just to be purchasing a L4400. It sure beats the busted up old Ford 8n I had. I feel like with the L4400, I will be terribly spoiled.

 

[swampvol]

Man..I stand corrected. I thought surely the l4400 could handle a 6' medium duty hog.
I had planned on getting a 5' md hog for my l3400. I guess that ain't gonna happen.

 

[Bob_Young]

Photoguy, you're on the right track. The L4400HST will tread more lightly than any of the Grand L's while giving you enough power and lift capability for that 5' Med. duty brush cutter. The smaller Grand L's are built on the same basic chassis as the L4400 anyway, the wheelbase is the same. But they do weigh more and cost more while generating less power. The paper improvement in 3PH lift capability is only a few hundred pounds and that's academic since the L4400 has the muscle...as long as something holds the front down.

The only issue is with a 6' med duty mower. It'll still work, but the rig will be unbalanced, you'll feel it and it'll make you uncomfortable. I'd be surprised if the smaller grand L's are rated any higher than the L4400 in terms of mower capability. Maybe someone here can look at their L3240/3540/3940 manual and tell us. I know the MX5000 is rated for a mower maximum of 84"/1000# and that's with a 3PH lift capability that's exactly the same as the L4400's. It's just a little longer and wider than the L4400, as well as being about 500# heavier, so it can handle the added weight better.

BTW are you going to leave the tractor and mower out at your prairie site or will you trailer it? With tractor, loader and mower you'll probably need a 20 footer to trailer.
Bob

 

[Racer71]

I had planned on getting a 5' md hog for my l3400. I guess that ain't gonna happen.

I have a 5 footer with my 3400 and it works just fine. I wish I had a 6 footer.
The lift is great. I leave the FEL on.

The 3400 can lift 900 pounds 3 feet behind the lifting points. The 4400 can lift 1,500 pounds at 3 feet. So the brochures state.

 

[photogman]

Photogman,
Woods has a new beefed up version of their standard duty mowers out. Think they're called Standard-Xtreme Duty or some such. Lots of HD features without all the weight. Might be worth looking at.

Bob, I intend on looking up info on the Woods Standard Xtreme duty and maybe even call Woods about it. It certainly sounds interesting. The last thing I want to do is tear up a new Kubota. I will be storing the Kubota in a building. The little piece (16 acres) of prairie my wife and I own is considered an area of interest by the US Department of the Interior or the National Park System. The Regal Fritillary is a butterfly that is considered pretty rare in the Midwest and occurs almost entirely on good healthy prairie. One afternoon last summer, we counted over 150 of them on a small piece of our prairie. My wife and I even choose different routes when we walk on the prairie as not to make a trail on it. So, a light weight tractor like the L4400 probably will actually work to our advantage.

 

[john_bud]

I have a Woods BB600 on the back of a Kubota L3410 HST. It's over the listed weight, but IMHO, that is only for tractors without FEL or front weights.

So, I leave the FEL on the front and the BB600 (with chains) is not a problem.


If you have a FEL on the tractor, you should be able to get the BB720 or other equivalent brand of medium duty mower. If no FEL, you would need to max out the front weights. No big deal, people have been doing that exact thing on tractors since re the 8N was popular.

jb

 

[N80]

I know the MX5000 is rated for a mower maximum of 84"/1000# and that's with a 3PH lift capability that's exactly the same as the L4400's. It's just a little longer and wider than the L4400, as well as being about 500# heavier, so it can handle the added weight better.

That's good information and confirms your idea that the implement weight limit has more to do with the balance of the machine than the capacity of the 3pt hitch and its hydraulics to handle the weight (which is my main concern). If the hydraulics and the lift components (lift arms, spindle, etc) can handle the weight then it is not that hard to ballast a tractor to handle it (i.e. keep the loader on, add suitcase weights etc.) Although I still have concerns in the back of my mind about bouncing a 1200 pound mower (or in my case a 1200 pound disk) in the lifted position.

 

[N80]

Man..I stand corrected. I thought surely the l4400 could handle a 6' medium duty hog.
I had planned on getting a 5' md hog for my l3400. I guess that ain't gonna happen.

Well, it sounds like the jury is still out on this issue. I'm just quoting the manual. Obviously other folks here have used medium duty mowers on this size tractor without problems. If you really need a medium duty, I'd do a little more research before I gave up on the idea.

 

[N80]

I feel like with the L4400, I will be terribly spoiled.

Yep. We're just putting all the info out there. You have to decide. And the simple truth is, for your needs the L4400 will likely exceed your expectations. It certainly has mine. And while an M5040 sounds real neat, truth is, there is nothing in my experience with my L4400 that indicates any need for a 5040 whatsoever. Even with HST I think the L4400 is still the best bang for the buck you can get in a CUT....and in fact, the L4400 is pretty close to a utility tractor. And I can say without hesitation that in the last 2.5 years there hasn't been anything that I wanted the tractor to do that it couldn't do. (When I lifted that 1200 Tuf-Line HD disk, the tractor did 'grunt' a little bit, but from what I've read in this thread, I feel like it could have carried it just fine, and I know that it could pull it just fine.)

So you really can't go wrong. And I'm with you on the luxury stuff. If I was going to spend more money it would be on HP, not a tilt steering wheel.

 

[markanth]

In the owner's manual of the L3400 and L4400, you will find maximum 3pt weights and sizes. These number are quite a bit less than the numbers you will find on the spec. sheets.

I spoke to 2 dealers about the matter.

The local dealer said you can go over the weight on the 3 point if you have an appropriate counter balance.

The other dealer said that these maximums have nothing do to with counter balance. It is related to the tractor and the components included in the 3pt.

Of course no one wants to break their 3pt. So what gives.
What is correct answer?
Thanks, Mark

 

[N80]

Of course no one wants to break their 3pt. So what gives.
What is correct answer?
Thanks, Mark

The correct answer is not to exceed the limits given in the owner's manual. Of course, that's not what anyone wants to hear. We want to know why. But, the fact is, you're probably not going to get the reason.

So my recommendation is to follow the recommendation if you can, but if you can't then counter balance approriately and be very careful when exceeding the limits. In other words, if you need a 1200 pound medium duty mower then be very careful while travelling with it in the raised position. When you hit a bump that 1200 suspended 6 feet behind the lift point is going to bounce hard. So go slow. Or consider a pull type mower which puts no load on the 3 pt hitch.

Etc, Etc.