PTO Problems

[woodlandfarms]

Well, I went out to test my new rig on my mower and the PTO is acting up.

It sounds / acts like it is restricted somehow. When I flip the switch the engine bogs down and the mower spins slowly.

I don't know how to test this problem so I am looking for some advice on this one. Of course I missed Terry as it is now 2P.

Part of me feels there is some sort of restriction happening, but I have no clue where. There is oil in the hoses, and I have a full tank of oil.

I thought it ran fine when I first started out then started acting up but it may have been bad all along as I was not looking at the RPM of the mower.

Oh, this is my only PTO implement at the moment.

 

[Rip]

Just to make sure..... Are you ramping the RPMs up to full speed after turning the PTO ON? While rated pressure is usually available from just above idle on up, flow is generaly proportional to engine/pump speed. If there is air or foam in the PTO circuit you would get less than full performance also.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Ponytug mentions that maybe I shook something junk loose in the mower head. I guess it is possible. The mower does spin freely.

Yes, I do ramp up.

I think it was working fine then I got into a bramble pile and came back out and the system was bogging... Turned off the PTO and bogging stopped.

The mower motor spins, just slowly.

I was wondering as I have been finding debris in my filters... Coud the connectors get plugged up? They are just the standard connectors. Wayne County? is this possible or should I look elsewhere for obstructions (which would be odd as all heck, but I have been pulling lots of hoses lately).

Carl

 

[BobRip]

Could something be wrapped up on the spindle?

 

[J_J]

Well, I went out to test my new rig on my mower and the PTO is acting up.

It sounds / acts like it is restricted somehow. When I flip the switch the engine bogs down and the mower spins slowly.

I don't know how to test this problem so I am looking for some advice on this one. Of course I missed Terry as it is now 2P.

Part of me feels there is some sort of restriction happening, but I have no clue where. There is oil in the hoses, and I have a full tank of oil.

I thought it ran fine when I first started out then started acting up but it may have been bad all along as I was not looking at the RPM of the mower.

Oh, this is my only PTO implement at the moment.

Carl,

You have a female end on one hose and a male fitting on the other. Just plug them together, and turn the PTO on. If the PTO is working, the engine will not bog down . If the motor on the implement is plugged or by-passing, it will do as you said. If your hoses are breaking down, It may be time to replace the hoses for the PTo circuit. Have you ever changed out the hydraulic fluid? Over time, It may become acidic, and deteriorate things.

 

[woodlandfarms]

thanks JJ, I will do that test tomorrow.

No, there is nothing on the spindle. Either my pump is going or there is something plugged up.

The oil is new, 80 hours. but I have replaced the 2 steering hoses, all 6 Wheel motor hoses, and the hose from the filter to the tram pump.

When I changed out the charger filter (the high pressure filter) I had all sorts of junk on the screen, big particles. In digging around the body and the rest of the PT I am sure I am moving old hoses around.

You guys have said there are 3 pumps on the PT. Maybe the 1850 is weird, but I only count 2. But one runs PTO and Steering (and lift?)

Terry once said he thought I might be getting air in the system. The only issue with that for me is that my engine is bogging, like the PTO is on but nothing is hooked up to it.

Again, does anyone know if connectors can plug (the big ones?)

Carl

 

[duane]

Possibility is your electric PTO solenoid is not full stroking. It requires a good 12 volts plus to full stroke.

 

[Bob999]

Possibility is your electric PTO solenoid is not full stroking. It requires a good 12 volts plus to full stroke.

Also PT had a problem with over torqueing the nut on the solenoid that activitates the PTO. If overtorqued it causes binding. Mine failed after 4 years. The failure occured while I was mowing. PT replaced it without charge even though it was out of the written warranty period.

 

[J_J]

Possibility is your electric PTO solenoid is not full stroking. It requires a good 12 volts plus to full stroke.

Duane, You could be right about the PTO solenoid hanging up. Letting some fluid go to the output hose which would be dead headed.


Carl,

I would recommend that you connect the PTO hoses together for several reasons, One is to help keep the fittings from picking up sand and debris. Second, with the two hoses connected together, you have a safety factor there which will keep your PTO pump or hoses from bursting, if you inadvertently activate the PTO switch.

To check if the PTO switch is leaking or bypassing, take the quick disconnect off the output hose, and put in a clean container. Start up the PT with the PTO switch off. If any fluid is coming out of the hose, you have a leaking solenoid, the coil is not seated, or there is crud in the valve. You might flip the switch several times to dislodge any crud or debris.

You do not want to deadhead the pump, which means you are trying to force fluid under pressure to a closed end. The relief valve may protect it, maybe not.

Before I replaced my PTO pump, I was using my flail mower, and noticed the motor would start up fast and then would slow down and almost stop. I tried other implements, and same thing, telling me the pump was not preforming well. Took it off and had it tested, and they said it was dead, and not worth rebuilding , so I ordered a new one .

You probably have three pumps, The steering system only needs about 3 to 5 gpm to operate. PTO pump put out about 18 gpm I believe. Do you have two pumps piggy backed on the tram pump. there should be an input hose and an output hose on each pump.

Post a picture of your pump system, left and right side.

 

[MossRoad]

On our 2001 model year PT425 there is one pump for travel. That is the variable volume pump. It is located in front of the engine.
http://www.mossroad.com/PT425Pictures/PT425VarVolPump.jpg

Then there is a second pump with two sections piggybacked onto each other. One is the main PTO pump and the second section is the aux pto/lift/steering pump. It is located on the rear of the engine.
http://www.mossroad.com/PT425Pictures/PT425PTOPump.jpg

On the newer model years, all three pumps are piggybacked together on the front of the engine, which moves the engine more towards the rear of the tractor.

There are several variations of the pump layouts from year to year. And, of course, the larger model tractors are different as well.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Carl, are these connectors you are talking about quick disconnects? If so, they can cause problems when they do malfunction. I have seen them cause a restriction. Operate the mower a few minutes, then grab them to check temp. This is not a fool proof way to tell, but they will get warm if causing a serious restriction. I would also unplug them and look into them for anything not normal.

You mentioned that you changed hoses. One thing I harp on is cleanliness. Almost no hose shops out there clean hoses prior to or after assembly. Google "Ultra Clean Technologies." I use their system. If you cut a new piece of hyd hose off a reel and stick your finger inside it, you would cringe. When you install that hose, all that gank is cycling thru your system. When you do get a new hose, ask about their cleaning system. I almost guarantee you get a dumb look. Before you install a hose, blow it out with high pressure air, then squirt it good with brake clean, then air again, now install. It's quite possible you have debris in your pto solenoid. Remove it and operate the plunger with a small screwdriver, make sure it operates freely.

Bob is also correct. The nut on the coil is tightened to only a few inch pounds, just over finger tight. Energize the coil and while holding a screwdriver handle, drop the metal part on top of the solenoid. The magnetized coil should provide resistance when trying to remove the screwdriver. If no resistance, no solenoid activation.
Good luck, Andy.

 

[ponytug]

JJ-

Another gem! What are the fittings on the PTO? Do you know the sizes?

I'm assuming that you hook up a short piece of hose between the two fittings. My hoses are threaded through pipe that would entail removing the fittings to connect the two together.

All the best,

Peter

Carl,

You have a female end on one hose and a male fitting on the other. Just plug them together, and turn the PTO on. If the PTO is working, the engine will not bog down . If the motor on the implement is plugged or by-passing, it will do as you said. If your hoses are breaking down, It may be time to replace the hoses for the PTo circuit. Have you ever changed out the hydraulic fluid? Over time, It may become acidic, and deteriorate things.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Wow, do we need a real manual for the things....

Just got off the phone with Terry.

He feels something is up with the PTO Solonoid. He wants me to disconnect the mower and run the tractor and PTO on.

It turns out that the 1850 has a bypass system built in. This bypass system activates if the PTO is activated without anything hooked to it and the PTO switch is turned on.

The relief valves will dump into the tank. there is a heat issue that Terry spoke about, but no damage to the pump from backed up pressure.

Well, be back in 10 with the results.

Oh, JJ. I will try and take some pictures of the pump. It is quite burried on this version of the tractor. I am also getting (suposedly) a hydraulic schematic that I will scan and post. I will also scan parts of my manual that have the pumps and toys...

Carl

 

[J_J]

JJ-

Another gem! What are the fittings on the PTO? Do you know the sizes?

I'm assuming that you hook up a short piece of hose between the two fittings. My hoses are threaded through pipe that would entail removing the fittings to connect the two together.

All the best,

Peter

On mine, all my attachments plug into another quick disconnect located on the bottom front. Just get the same fittings, and a short hose and keep them coupled together until you have a use for them. I also keep the QD from the attachments connected together. Every now and then, heat will cause some difficulty in separating them.

I also have a lever to control the PTO speed. It gives me the ability for variable speed control.

Another thing, if you install a four way electric valve at the attaching point for your PTO, you can have reverse capability with a flip of a switch.

 

[DHS]

I had a similar problem couple years ago with my PTO solenoid. I believe the ignition switch, the wire to the switch, or the fuseholder would heat up and dropped the voltage to the PTO solenoid. When the switch got hot the lower voltage would only partially opened the solenoid. I bought a new solenoid from PT but that was not the problem. Rather than replace the switch, I installed a wire with a fuse from the battery post on the starter to the PTO switch. No more PTO solenoid problems. I intended to replace the switch but I have had no problems and it slips my mind.

Try powering the PTO solenoid directly from the battery. Best to use a wire with an inline fuse.

Dale

 

[J_J]

Fm. Carl, I don't know how to test this problem so I am looking for some advice on this one. Of course I missed Terry as it is now 2P.


Carl, you can make yourself a test device for your pumps. It consist of a short section of hose, and some QD's, 1/4 and 3/8. a 5000 psi gage, and a high pressure valve that you can turn up or down. This setup will plug in or attach to what ever you are testing. With an open ended pump, no motor hooked up, you would just plug the QD's into the PTO QD's. With the valve all the way open, and PTO switch on, you will have very little pressure. As you turn the valve down, you will notice the pressure build up and should build up to the advertised pressure for your system. It should build up and you might hear the relief valve operating, and you might see a small drop in pressure as the relief valve operates. If you have other fittings, you could test the pressure of the tram pump. Same with your lift cylinders. If you were really into switches and gages, you could install a pressure gage into each circuit so you can see, and test your system. Some people think that there is pressure there all the time, but pressure is only realized when work is being done such as turning a motor, or lifting a cylinder. So in essence, 0 pressure or low pressure is not necessarily a bad thing. it is just acting normal.

Just one more little bit of data from years past, When you use say 1/4 in hose, a lot of people will use 1/4 in QD's. I have heard this fact, and I believe it, that is to go one size higher on the QD's. This eliminate restriction that may exist. So if your hose is 1/4 in, use 1/2 QD's. The smallest orifice in the system is what limits the flow.

 

[Wayne County Hose]

J_J is right on with the q.d. sizing.

I just made up a pressure test kit for a local small engine shop who wanted to pressure test log splitters. Total cost was under $70. Consisted of:

5kpsi liquid filled gauge
-8 JIC street run Tee fitting
-8 to -6 reducers, need 2
-4 NPT female to -6 JIC female. Adapts from Tee fitting to gauge
-4 two wire hose, 2' long, -6 JIC female ends
You can add a high pressure valve like J_J said, small engine shop didn't need it.

You can change or add fittings to suit your needs. Most of the log splitters had -8 fittings. You could probably get away with -6 fittings and use reducers. Just make sure the hose max. psi is at least that of the gauge.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Could you guys post a picture of this illusive pressure tester. I get roughly what you are saying but there are some big words in there that I just want to make sure I understand...

Oh, and a very frustrating 2 days lost on the PTO. Basically, I took out the solenoid (twice) it seems to be working A-OK. (Ken, does yours make a real loud clunk or is it a quiet clunk). Voltage checked out OK

According to Eric (I think it was eric - FYI Terry had a kidney stone attack so condolencses to him. He came to work today (was in the hospital untiil midnite) I spoke to him at 9A his time and he sounded bad. Eric says he threw up shortly there after and went home).... Anyway, Eric. He listened over the phone and said it sounded right.

So, all I can think of is that I have some sort of obstruction. it would be very easy to check if I could just get my hoses off. But that has proven a majorly difficult task. But, I have enough confidence now to continue to pursue this issue.

Terry and Eric swear that my hose could not leave chunks but remember this picture? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/power-trac/94001d1200717212-junk-trunk-pict0925.jpg so maybe there is junk somewhere in the hose or the block.

Well this filter is attached to the PTO pump (it goes to the charging circuit)

Anyway. Advice always taken....

 

[Wayne County Hose]

Terry and Eric swear that my hose could not leave chunks but remember this picture? http://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/attachments/power-trac/94001d1200717212-junk-trunk-pict0925.jpg so maybe there is junk somewhere in the hose or the block.

Oh darn it, Terry and Eric shouldn't swear. Hoses can, and will, break down internally and cause problems, especially if they were run in higher than rated temps. Most 2 wire hose is rated for about 212 degrees. A little problem, and oil temps can easily exceed that. Is there cracking or brittleness in the outer hose cover? This is a sign of hose overtemp. Brittleness, is that a word? Or is that kind of like a jumbo shrimp?

 

[woodlandfarms]

The brittleness is so bad that when I straightened my driveline hoses to pull them through the outer shell cracked right off. You could hear everything creaking and groaning. The PTO hoses are no exception. Plan to replace them all once I can get this darn hose undone...