PTO Generators: Winco

Soundguy · Oct 5, 2005

( The water heater takes 5500 watts. BUT, that is with two elements. Even with HEAVY water usage I have never seen both elements on. Sooo, I'm guessing that really it only needs 2750 watts if we don't use too much water or let it cool down. )

My parents were without power for about 3 weeks in 04 after the multi-hurrican fiesta in florida. What I did was have them hook up their genny to the water pump, and pump up water pressure.. then hook over to the water heater, and let it run for 30 minutes.. kick the water heater off, and leave the pump hooke dup for pressure. That yields enough shower water to take a decent warm shower with constant pressure. Had it set so they could then power a window ac unit so they could sleep. Once my aunt got power back, she lent them another 5500w genny, and I hooked up on to the pump and the other to the water heater and ac..( fridge and a single lamp) that way my stepfather didn't have to constantly plug and unplug stuff.

I had my 12kw pto genny.. that convinced him to get one.. course he outdid me.. got a 24kw /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif Makes mine look a tad wimpy in comparison!!! Guess he got tired of my mom complaining about to power!!! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Soundguy

Soundguy · Oct 5, 2005

( The side effect of this is that some homeowners take some risks with a live power source that they probably shouldn't take )

Looks like good justification for a utility disconnect switch after the can, and before the breaker.

Soundguy

dmccarty · Oct 17, 2005

Inspector507,

I looked at my plate on the waterheater again. You are right. There are two elements both at 5500 watts. But I guess only one works at a time since the plate also said max wattage is 5500 watts.

I need to put out the manual cuz what is in my head is that the top elements only goes on if a lot of water has to heat up. The water heater has two LEDs, one for each element. I have never seen the the top one lit. I was looking at it last night since everyone had just taken showers and baths. Its an 80 gallon unit and with our low flow heads on the shower it would take along time to run out of hot water.

Still don't know what to do about a generator..... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Later,
Dan

ns_in_tex · Oct 17, 2005

I think the way most 2 element electric water heaters work is:
Cold water is fed to bottom of tank
Hot water is taken from top of tank
When top thermostat calls for heat, it cuts off current to lower element & turns on top element. When top thermostat is satisfied, it transfer current to lower thermostat & it will heat till satisfied.

Since cold water is fed to bottom, it will most likely turn on first, then when top gets cold enough to turn on thermostat, the top thermostat will cut current off to the bottom & turn top element back on.

dieselmotorhead · Oct 24, 2005

If anyone is getting the generator, remember to do the transfer switch correctly. You can have a " vital" subpanel ( 60 Amp/240?)with the two manual interlocking feed breakers for pretty cheap. But only the loads wired to that panel will run off the generator. There are the retrofit panels that split each of the desired circuits( utility power or backup generator). Then there are the total swapover switches. A manual one just past the meter or an automatic with auto start genset$$$$. These are in ascending order of price. Of course the cheapest is a bunch of extension cords and wire/ wire nuts to splice into the loads right from the generator panel. From an industry insider please don't do it on the sly. I work in a nuke power plant, and despite the media spin to the contrary the most dangerous aspect of the plant is our product- Electricity. Linemen get paid very well, look at what happens when they mess up, or you backfeed them ( Do a search, please have an empty stomach ). Those guys deserve the pay, dont kill them with a single error.

jimmysisson · Oct 24, 2005

Our electrical subs always use something called a GenTran panel. THey wire up the "vital" circuits (as dieselmh mentioned) to that panel: water, some lighting, freezer or fridge, boiler, etc. When line power dies, the GenTran either manually (or, more $$, automatically) disconnects the line power switches itself to your genny. You either then manually (or, more$$, automatically) start your genny and it runs those circuits. If there's no neighbors in sight (without generators) a neon bulb on the main panel is a good clue for when the main power returns. The GenTran keeps the linemen safe and the only limit is you have to buy a big enough one to run the circuits you want. They are a few hundred $$ plus installation. Jim

Soundguy · Oct 25, 2005

( From an industry insider please don't do it on the sly. ..... dont kill them with a single error. )

What i can't figure out is the problem with people throwing their main breaker, if they backfeed their house thru a 220v plug ( welder recep.. dryer.. etc.. ).. seems like a 1 second fix that would stop problems...

Soundguy

midlf · Oct 25, 2005

Backfeed onto the utility system, it happens because most people have no idea how electricity works. Those asking questions here that don't know at least know they don't know and are trying to upgrade their knowledge. Some of the questions asked on various forums re electrical wiring are terrifying. But at least these people are asking. Think of all those who blindly blunder through life not knowing squat and not seeking to change that condition.

Steve02 · Oct 26, 2005

( Think of all those who blindly blunder through life not knowing squat and not seeking to change that condition. )

Hence the saying "Ignorance is bliss."

I agree with Soundguy, if I were fortunate enough to even have a generator, all I would do is wire it up to back-feed through the panel and turn off the MCB. Then you just turn off non-essential breakers, watch carefully what you turn on and enjoy.

But I think you're right, people by-in-large are idiots. And what's worse is they will usually believe anyone who sounds like they know what they are talking about (even if that person is a bigger idiot, I'm thinking of the big-box home improvement employees here). That's what really scares me.

sandman2234 · Apr 20, 2006

Been there, done it that way, (by flipping off the main breaker). However, what about the neutral? It doesn't go thru the breaker, and is how power is sometimes backfed to the grid. Not supposed to... but sometimes does.
Another thought...
To tell if your grid power is back on, how about a LED on each leg of the incoming power, instead of flouresent. Much less power draw. (assuming LED's can be found for AC power, since all I have are used with DC.
Or a simple voltmeter wired up to run all the time, set neatly in a subpanel.
David from jax

daTeacha · Apr 21, 2006

I tend toward overkill in the safety with electricity area. I just have a second set of outlets, wires, and panel for the generator only. I will install a lockout switch for the pump -- essentially two breakers set in place back to back and mechanically linked through the switch handles so turning one off turns the other one on -- but aside from that all I need is a couple of 120V circuits in selected rooms and a good woodpile. My generator runs on natural gas, thus freeing the tractor for hauling firewood and moving snow. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

40_acre_mule · Apr 26, 2006

Another advantage to a PTO gen...
With a stand-alone, you're supposed to start and run it once a month (under load) just to make sure the engine runs properly.
With the PTO gen, the tractor IS the engine. If you're using your tractor regularly anyway, then you know you're set.
Just make sure you keep the gen properly covered when not in use to protect against mice, mud wasps, etc.
The reason the PTO gen costs so much less is that you're NOT buying an engine. That alone will run $1000.

40_acre_mule · Apr 26, 2006

( 20050924

One thing also to consider--do you want to be hooking up a PTO generator in a storm?

Just food for thought, not meaning to be a party pooper,

Jim
)

Well, of course you wait until after the storm to hook everything up. I've added a 50 amp plug to the outside of my main breaker box. After hooking up the genny to the tractor, I just plug in a cable between the genny and the breaker box.

DANOCHEESE · Apr 28, 2006

Please be carfull when connecting any generator to your hosue. If you back feed the power company distribution system this poses a very dangerous situation for the line crew.

You may think that you are only feedign back 120 volts and you are. The problem is that there is a POT ( Transformer) sitting at the other end of your service. POTS work both directions. Feed the pot with 120 volts backwards and you may have 12470 volts on the primary from a source unknown.

Yea not much amperage ( tell that to the grunt who just grabbed the wire) but it will kill.

make sure you have a disconnect in place.

Calvin · Jun 11, 2019

Shimon said:
This is an interesting thread since I was thinking of a getting a PTO generator (once I get my tractor...hopefully this weekend!).

My only question is reagrding the frquency control of these gensets. I know the frquency of the AC output is controlled by the RPM of the genset. I assume these PTO gensets accept 540RPM. How well are PTO RPMs regulated on the tractor side? I assume you set what ever RPM you need on the tractor to achieve 540 on the PTO but will the tractor maintain that 540 as long as the load is within reason? Also how hard is it to actually set the throttle to get 540 at the PTO or will the PTO be at 540 as long as the engine RPM is above a certain amount? Does the genset input side (I assume it's an "increasing" gear) have some sort of compensator to make up for fluctuations at the PTO end or would you just end up with frequency fluctuations on the AC signal?

Thanks.

I was wondering about this also. How good are these are running big house loads in the summer - i.e AC and well pumps? Say the AC comes on, with the tractor be able to keep the frequency at 60hz? or will it bog down?

PG&E has just sent out letters saying we need to be prepared for summer outages of over 48 hrs -> Public Safety Shutoff.

A 15KW PTO generator on a 40hp tractor will handle the loads, but I'm not sure how well it will be for the AC or other devices (HD tv, computers, etc). The advantage of a stand alone generator is that the engine govenor can keep everything at 60hz. Not sure if the tractor has something similar or not.

In the winter it might not be a problem with just a frig and some lights, but these outages will be in the summer when we need and use the most power. I'm thinking that these PTO generators are really only meant to power some saws or power tools in the field, not computers or air conditioners, etc.

The Winco 15kw advertises <5% THD, but if the tractor bogs down when a big load starts up, that is not much help either.

Molalla1 · Jun 11, 2019

Calvin. . . start a new thread . . . this is what, 13+ years old.

Sawyer Rob · Jun 11, 2019

Calvin said:
I'm thinking that these PTO generators are really only meant to power some saws or power tools in the field, not computers or air conditioners, etc.

The Winco 15kw advertises <5% THD, but if the tractor bogs down when a big load starts up, that is not much help either.

You would be thinking wrong! I easily run my whole house on my 15kw Winco...

Don't over load the tractor (read put too small of a tractor in front of it) and it will NOT bog down!

I use a farm tractor and using the 2pto hp per kw rule, it works perfectly...

SR

Calvin · Jun 11, 2019

The tractor is 40 hp. Not exactlyy sure what the PTO hp is but I'm guessing that a 15kw generator would be ok. Just want to make sure that the frequency and voltage will not go down so much when big loads start as to cause problems with the computers and other electronics in the house. The power outages will happen in the summer when we need ac and water the most. Now the house uses 6kw with the ac on and 9-10 kw when the irrigation pump is also on. Both the ac and the pump will cycle so we can go from 2-3kw to 10kw. Tractor rpm won't be affected by this or does someone need to stay on the throttle all the time and keep adjusting it to 60hz, 240v? If we use 10kw max, a 15kw generator is only running at 66% max output anyway, never at 100%

Sawyer Rob · Jun 11, 2019

Tractors have governor's, they compensate for any loads up to their rated pto hp, same as any engine that's on a dedicated generator...

SR

Molalla1 · Jun 11, 2019

Calvin said:
The tractor is 40 hp. Not exactlyy sure what the PTO hp is but I'm guessing that a 15kw generator would be ok. Just want to make sure that the frequency and voltage will not go down so much when big loads start as to cause problems with the computers and other electronics in the house. The power outages will happen in the summer when we need ac and water the most. Now the house uses 6kw with the ac on and 9-10 kw when the irrigation pump is also on. Both the ac and the pump will cycle so we can go from 2-3kw to 10kw. Tractor rpm won't be affected by this or does someone need to stay on the throttle all the time and keep adjusting it to 60hz, 240v? If we use 10kw max, a 15kw generator is only running at 66% max output anyway, never at 100%

No . . . and no. ^^^^ look at Rob's above.