PTO Generators any advice?

BillyP · Oct 9, 2003

Yeah, Jerry. My wife says I procrastinate too much. I do think she's right, in a way. (I just don't like to jump into things too quick) I checked into it last year but finally made up my mind.

On the HP, it's 166

JerryG · Oct 9, 2003

Billy,
Mine is a 100kw with 166 hp Perkins. I really like it. Your wife sounds like mine, she says that to me all the time. /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

RichNJKubota · Oct 9, 2003

I'm in NJ. Can I run an extension cord over to your genset? /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Rich

slowzuki · Oct 10, 2003

Does nobody use their engine driven welder for a generator? It is a popular way to do it here.
Ken

40Kchicks · Oct 10, 2003

Billy.

That sounds like a great system but 17 grand, ouch. Actually I do know how those costs can add up. I put in a propane/NG Onan 85KW generator that I got used out of a hospital and a GE 400amp auto transfer switch new off ebay. The generator was $3500, the transfer switch was $2200 and installation was $3400 for a total of $9100. I got lucky to find like new equipment for reasonable prices but still it hurts.

The other day we had our first real power outage. It lasted for 5 hours and happened in the middle of the night with no warning. It was great. Our alarm went off I woke up heard the generator start and it transferred power. I could have went back to sleep but of course I went down and checked on the poultry barns and then went over to my neighbors place and started helping him open up his barns. He just bought a used Onan 200KW diesel generator in excellent condition but he hasn’t hooked it up yet. After the other night it is now a higher priority.

We had one farmer in Washington that had a pto generator at his poultry farm. His power went out for a week. He put a lot of hours on that tractor at high RPM. That’s why I don’t think pto system are good for applications like ours that are life and death critical. I can see were they might be handy for intermittent non critical applications.

Hoeman00 · Oct 10, 2003

( That’s why I don’t think pto system are good for applications like ours that are life and death critical. I can see were they might be handy for intermittent non critical applications.
)
Tell that to large dairies.
Lots of them around here run pto generators.
We use the bigger tractors and hook it too the 1000 rpm pto, then run tractor around 1500-1800 rpm and it gives the 540 rpm.
We do this for grain augers too.
This saves fuel and doesn't make as much noise.
168 hours for a week isn't much on a 10,000 hour tractor.

40Kchicks · Oct 10, 2003

Hey Billy

Don't forget to get a battery maintainer. I use one called the Batteryminder. It’s cheap insurance that your battery will always be up to task of starting that engine.

Eric

40Kchicks · Oct 10, 2003

Tim,

 Tell that to large dairies. 

I’d rather not. /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It sounds like they have got the right equipment and knowledge to get the job done as efficiently as possible. A large pto generator will be quite a bit less expensive than a comparable stand alone system. Using the 1000 rpm pto is a great tip. But if your chickens are going to die if power is not restored within 15 minutes or grandma is depending on her O2 generator then a standalone automatic transfer switched generator system would be my first choice.

Eric

BillyP · Oct 10, 2003

Eric, this system comes with a battery maintainer. I have no clue to what brand it is, yet. Just got through pouring the slab. Selling birds next Friday. Then we're off to Branson MO for a few days.

Bob_Skurka · Oct 12, 2003

Slowzuki . . . We had an extended power failure and I was snowed in for a few days, all of which occured BEFORE I got my own generator. We we finally got the road open all the generators were sold or rented and I found a welding supplier with several engine powered generators. My neighbors and I all rented them and they got us through with power to spare. However, being gas driven, we had to keep filling the tanks and the went through 3+ tanks a day (the temperatures dropped to -20 for 3 straight days, stayed below zero for something like 21 straight days) and we were completely out of power for 7.5 days.

When things finally settled down, I bought a generator that runs on 3 different fuels, and have it plumbed in to the Natural Gas line. It has come in handy several times.

I looked at auto switches and more expensive units, but figured that they doubled the price and only made things more convenient, didn't actually give me any more safety or any more power.

Mine has electric and recoil start and a pressure regulator for Propand and N.G. plus a 5 gallon gas tank. I have to turn in on and I have to flip a switch in the basement next to my fuse box to switch from the power company to the generator.

 When you install a generator set up MAKE SURE you install a power line cut off or cutover switch. It prevents you from sending your power out to the power company lines. The important thing about that is that when the linemen are working down the road to fix your power, your generator is sending them power with enough amps to kill or injure them.

dmccarty · Oct 20, 2003

JDCook00,

Just to make this even more interesting or confusing...

I sized my tractor partly so I could run a PTO genset. I still
don't know what to get. I like the idea of only one engine to
maintain as well as one fuel to store. But I also don't want to
be changing from the genset to most likely the boxblade to
clear snow or storm debris.... There is not a good answer unless
one has deep pockets....

However, there are small diesel powered gensets. They cost a
bit more than gas but the ones I have read about seem to be
more efficient. Less fuel used per hour. Northern has one that
is a 6500 surge watt Yanmar diesel for $2,600-2,700. At least
with this I would have the fuel...

REALLY what I need is a way to hook the genset up to the PTO
on my Ford F350 diesel. That is 300+ HP so I should be able
to generate 100-150 KW!

Later,
Dan McCarty

Bob_Skurka · Oct 20, 2003

Unless you live in a climate that does not get too cold, or does not get snow, or does not get tornadoes, or does not get hurricanes, then I would not get a PTO driven generator to use as an emergency back up generator for when the main power grid fails.

If you live in one of the above areas you may find you need the tractor to clear snow or downed trees or break up ice or any number of other critical tasks, during that time your house temperature is dropping or your freezer is thawing or any number of other bad things.

If you are going to invest in a generator, strongly consider an LP & Natural Gas bi-fuel unit. Many will also run on gasoline. The advantage is that you can plumb them into your gas line and in the event of a catastrophe that takes out your propane tank or breaks your NG line, you still have good old gasoline to fall back on.

And you also have your tractor available to clear your driveway of snow or pull the downed trees off your roof, or whatever you need it for.

Tri Fuel generators running about 8 to 9 KW are under $3000, which is very cost competitive with some smaller diesel units and you don't have to worry about storing fuel. I use one to power most of my 4000+ square foot house and if fires up with the turn of a key and switches over with the flip of one switch. Even my wife can do it when I am out of town. It was cheap piece of mind and somehow I doubt my wife would ever be able to hook up the PTO of the tractor to a genset if I was gone or too injured to do it.

RichNJKubota · Oct 20, 2003

Dan,
How long does it take to clear the snow using the tractor? Can your house live without PTO generated power for that long?
I bought a PTO generator. If I MUST have power while the tractor is doing something else then I have a 1000 watt inverter ($87 at BJ's) that runs off the car battery/alternator. It can power the well pump, fridge (one at a time) and a lite or two.
As Mick Jagger says:
"You can’t always get what you want
But if you try sometimes well you just might find
You get what you need"
If you don't have bottomless pockets then compromise between price and comfort will tell you how much to spend.
The house heat is not as big an issue for me because I have a solar heated house with a wood stove
backup.
But I'd think the inverter would power a furnace.
Rich

Slamfire · Oct 20, 2003

6.5 kW surge would probably start your pump, but I'd be careful that the pump, refrigerator and freezer didn't all try to start at the same time. Water is easy to store for non consumtive uses, just fill the bathtub. Heating with a wood stove is the primary method at our place, we both have arthritis, and it seems to help. A pto driven generator wouldn't be out of line for us, but I don't want to be storing large quantities of diesel fuel, cause I don't use a whole lot otherwise. I'll stick with my gas/propane generator, I can get a replacement engine off e-bay for under $1000 if I need to.

Bob_Skurka · Oct 20, 2003

RichNJKubota . . . I don't mean to argue but I can't imagine a 1000 watt inverter running a well pump or a refrigerator. I was looking at inverters to run a circular saw and figured a 1500 watt was marginal. My little microwave oven uses 1800 watts. I use a 450 watt inverter to power a small TV/VCR combo unit and a computer in the back of the wife's truck and that thing gets mighty warm with just that small electrical load.

My side by side refrigerator is on its own 20 amp circuit breaker. I know the compressor motors draws a large start up surge on refrigerators, and I doubt an a 1000 watt inverter would handle the load, but I have not bothered to check the draw. I would hate to see you burn out your well pump or your compressor.

We were out of power for over 7 days during a winter ice storm when temps never got up to zero and hit -20 during 3 of those days. It took 2 days of work by several of us on the road to get it barely passable by 4x4, I would have hated to have had to shut the house down for 6 or 8 hours for a couple of days while we were out working with our tractors and trucks to clear the road.

Me, after living through it with a tri-fuel generator where I never had to fill the gas tank, I will not trade that generator for all the downsides of a PTO driven unit.

dmccarty · Oct 21, 2003

Bob,

TriFuels are nice if you have TriFuels. I don't have gas or LP.
Nor do I want any so having a TriFuel generator does not work
in my situation.

I also don't fully agree that the PTO genset would keep me
from working the tractor. First of all when we get snowed in
nobody is going anywhere so there is no reason to start clearing
snow. The schools and workplaces are closed down. So for a
couple of days its a non issue. In my particular circumstances,
the ice storm last year blocked my road with hundreds of pine
trees. That required chainsaw work not tractor work. And I'm
not working a chainsaw in ice. I might not do it in snow. So
for a couple of days the tractor ain't gonna be moving. I also
don't intend to run the genset all of the time. Its only function
is to get water out of the well and power the freezers/fridge. If
it does more than that its goodness.

My father in law still has trees on his house from Isabel. Its
going to take cranes to get them off the house. If I had the
same problem my tractor ain't really gonna help that much... 8-(

For 2,000 dollars I can get a 15-25KW PTO genset. For the
same dollar I'll get roughly half as much power out of a portable
genset. Sooooo, the real question is how much power does
someone need? And is it worth maintaining another piece of equipment? And will they need the tractor to do clearing work
vs power generation?

And I'll be danged if I know the right answer either!

I'm
leaning on a small protable diesel genset if I need power on my
property this year. Hopefully I can get the temp power pole up
instead.....

Later,
Dan

dmccarty · Oct 21, 2003

Rich,

I'm sure the house could go for 4-8 hours without power. Longer
if need be. When we had a 24 inch snow storm I did not have a
problem driving my F350 in two wheel drive up a good part of
the hill. I finished in 4x4 mode without a problem. Trees are my
biggest worry. And that requires bringing out Mr. Sthil rather
than Mr. JD.

Any generator we get I don't intended on running constantly. I
only want it to run very few hours to cool down fridges and
freezers as well as running the pump. Our house to be has
passive solar features, will likely have active solar when we can
afford the collectors and will have a good quality wood stove.
We would only need power for a few things every few hours.

I have to make another pass down our road to clear out the
remaining pine trees. Once that is done a snow/ice storm
should only bring down one or two trees at the most. I hope.
I really don't like the idea of mixing snow/ice and chainsaws.

I truely don't know the right anwer in the PTO vs Standalone
genset debate. Its a tough call for me.

Later,
Dan

RichNJKubota · Oct 21, 2003

The inverter runs both our fridge and upright freezer at the same time. It will also run the neighbors jet well pump but not my submersible pump(240Volts). The inverter, in my case, is for most of the time when the PTO generator will not be running. Things like the radio, TV and a couple of lites, and the fridge. The car's engine must be running because of the high current draw on the 12v side. The PTO generator will be used for the well pump, water heater and backup electric heat if it's cloudy(solar heated house) or I don't run the wood stove.
For my situation I think I'm covered. Each families needs are different. With shipping the 15KW PTO generator was $1300. It was the cheapest way for me to go. The next best way was to buy a 12KW gas powered genset from Home depot for $2000. But for me 12KW is just marginal as the backup electric heat is 11.5KW. And there is a 1/2 HP blower motor. So that option for $2000 was questionable.
After all I figured that I would put the least amount of money into this to get what I need and plan for a complete solar/wind powered system to be off the grid completely. That's where I'm putting my money.
Rich

Trev · Oct 21, 2003

( JDCook00,

I sized my tractor partly so I could run a PTO genset. I still
don't know what to get. I like the idea of only one engine to
maintain as well as one fuel to store. But I also don't want to
be changing from the genset to most likely the boxblade to
clear snow or storm debris....
)

Hi Dan,

Just my own $0.02, but my experience is that people tend to overplay to problem of having the tractor unavailable while it's running the genset. Just power down the place for an hour or two, go do your tractor work, and then hook it up again. Maybe others have situations where this wouldn't work, but I've yet to see one myself.

I just tell my wife I need to power down for a little while, and go do what needs doing, and then back into the garage, hook up the genset again, and away we go. No big deal being without power for an hour or two.. it's when it gets to be days on end that it's a problem.

And yes, it *is* great having one engine to maintain, one type of fuel to store, 17KW (35KW surge) when you need it. And being able to simply tow it to wherever you need it.. a neighbor's house, a field, whatever.

I *love* PTO generators! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Best,
Bob

PineRidge · Oct 23, 2003

Since the big blackouts of 2003 I have been doing some homework on generators also. Home Depot & Harbor Freight both handle Generack Guardian Systems. Generac Power Systems manufactures a complete line of emergency automatic home standby generators that can be installed into existing residences. Residential emergency home standby generators are permanently installed outside (similar to an air-conditioning unit), supply electrical power to all pre-selected lights and appliances, and are powered by either natural gas or LPG. Models range from 7,000 to 45,000 watts. They work with a matched automatic transfer switch that responds within seconds when utility power shuts down, even when no one is home!

They work like this: The completely automatic Guardian transfer switch monitors incoming voltage from the utility line -around the clock.
When utility power is interrupted, the automatic transfer switch immediately senses the problem and signals the generator to start.
The automatic transfer switch then safely closes off the utility line and simultaneously opens a new power line from the generator.
Within seconds, the Guardian generator system begins supplying electricity to the critical emergency circuits of your home or business. The transfer switch continues to monitor the utility line conditions.
When the automatic transfer switch senses the utility line voltage has returned at a steady state, it re-transfers the electrical load back to the utility line and resumes monitoring for subsequent utility loss. The generator will continue to run for an engine cool-down period of several minutes while the entire system stands ready for the next power outage.

Features include:
UL-Listed Automatic Transfer Switch

Automatically signals the generator to produce emergency electrical power when utility fails and disconnects when utility power returns.
Within seconds your generator is producing electrical power without you having to even flip a switch. You don't have to be home for your system to work!
Automatic Exerciser
Seven (7) day interval testing of the power generating system.
You set the system to exercise at a prescribed time and day of the week. This allows you to verify that your system is in peak operating condition between utility failures.
Convenient Fuel Supply
Operates on home/business natural gas or LP gas service.
Provides you with potentially unlimited run time during extended utility power failures.
On Board LED System Fault Indicators - low oil pressure, high engine temperature shutdown, overspeed/overcrank shutdown and system ready light (air-cooled models only).
Aids in performance of servicing in the event of a system difficulty. Leads technician to a more specific area for troubleshooting purposes. Reduces service time.
OHVI® Single or Twin-Cylinder Engine
Full-pressure lubrication system with automotive spin-on oil filter (air-cooled only).
Finest lubrication technology available and provides instantaneous disbursement of lubricant to all engine parts. Easy change filter.
Automatic Voltage Regulator

Maintains constant voltage with varying loads.
Eliminates voltage spikes and allows operation of sensitive electronic equipment.

Maintenance Friendly

Air-cooled models include a hinged top and removable front panel. Liquid-cooled models feature large removable enclosure doors.
Provides easy and quick access to all maintenance and service parts. Reduces preventative maintenance or repair time.

I understand also that the systems come complete including the outdoor composite mounting pad, flexible gas connector, automatic transfer switch with whip, and of course the generator itself.

Since our business is Internet based we rely very heavily upon electricity to maintain our day to day operations here at the ranch. The big blackout cost us thousands of dollars in lost business as a result. So for my money I'm not tying up my $28,000 dollar NH when I can very easily install one of the larger Generack systems to power the whole ranch for around 3 grand and have the transfer all take place automatically. Just my 2 cents worth mind you.

I will be implementing the addition of the Generack in the spring of 2004 and I am looking forward to it. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif