PTO Capstan Winch (from scratch)

[chim]

Nice project! A bit late for the party, but I have a few comments. We use pulling machines (Greenlee , Maxis, Condux) for pulling electric power cable.

Capstan Wear - Our ropes pick up dirt, grit and water. Apparently the factory-made capstans are made of an alloy that is fairly robust. The ropes generally just polish the drums.

Ropes - Back in the day, we used triple braided ropes. We recently tested some Amsteel Blue and only some of the guys liked it. There were some complaints that it slipped too much on the capstans due to the smaller diameter of the rope in a given rating. To go with a rope with twice the diameter for the same pull increases the contact area of the rope / capstan for better traction is my guess.

Very low stretch polyester is what we normally use. I once pulled a long cable run (4-500MCM & Ground) with Greenlee braided rope where we needed to change the setup with about 300 feet remaining to be pulled. When we stopped and eased up on the rope, it went about 15-20 feet back into the conduit before stopping. I'm not sure Greenlee even sells this type of rope in the larger diameters any more.

In our application, most of the energy released in a rope failure would either be contained in the conduit and the cabinet we are pulling into, or shoot straight out of the end of the conduit. Using the winch in the open increases the area of exposure to flying things. If a chain would decide to ride the stretched rope back to your tractor it could get ugly.

Number of Wraps - In general, we have anywhere from 2 to 4 wraps on a capstan. The capstan diameter, load, rope and amount of finesse the operator has determine that. All of our ropes slip some on the capstans. Someone with good mechanical aptitude can quickly figure out how many wraps they need to do the pull without excess slippage while limiting the manual force they need to use pulling the rope.

Somewhere I saw a guy pulling logs who used some kind of cone on the end of the log so it skipped over small obstructions. When choked as in your video, it looks like logs like to go chain up. That would seem to make the nose of the log into the dirt (and roots and rocks).

 

[Baby Grand]

Very interesting build - thanks for posting!
I had been thinking about building a capstan winch, myself, but ended up buying a Fransgard. I had work that needed to be done and very limited time to do it. I think the winch paid for itself in a few months, vs hiring the work out. But I put a premium on DIY, so congrats on going that route.
A couple of thoughts on what I had been thinking, in terms of my own design:

I had settled on 5/8 double braid polyester for low stretch, UV resistance, water & dirt tolerance vs cost.

A larger capstan diameter produces less bending stress in the rope - so your rope will last longer and have a greater effective working strength when you use it.

As you have observed, some type of deadman mechanism is required for even moderately safe operation. My plan was to use an auto differential to get a 4:1 reduction ratio and the wonders of differential gearing. By attaching the capstan to one output shaft and a manually operated clutch to the other, I'd get the deadman function plus a way to slip the capstan if the line got fouled and the capstan failed to slip the rope when required.

Again, kudos for a great build - keep tweaking your design until to get that desired deadman feature. Work safe and keep the updates coming.
-Jim

 

[SpringHollow]

The portablewinch site sells the cones. I have one and they work real well. Having said that, I only use it when I am pulling lots of logs. The portable winch has sufficient power that the cone is not necessary. In my opinion, the major reason to use the cone is to protect other trees etc. I have found their rope and accessories to be reasonably priced and very useful.

Ken

 

[bcp]

As you have observed, some type of deadman mechanism is required for even moderately safe operation. My plan was to use an auto differential to get a 4:1 reduction ratio and the wonders of differential gearing. By attaching the capstan to one output shaft and a manually operated clutch to the other, I'd get the deadman function plus a way to slip the capstan if the line got fouled and the capstan failed to slip the rope when required.

Wouldn't 4:1 with differential action change to 2:1 when only one side was turning?

Bruce

 

[J Man]

Wouldn't 4:1 with differential action change to 2:1 when only one side was turning?

Bruce

What do you folks think about using a old Braden or Ramsey pto winch and adapting it to be used as a capstan style rope winch. Everything would be there, just would have to install some rope guides and etc. ??

 

[J Man]

Wouldn't 4:1 with differential action change to 2:1 when only one side was turning?

Bruce

What do you folks think about using a old Braden or Ramsey pto winch and adapting it to be used as a capstan style rope winch. Everything would be there, just would have to install some rope guides and etc. ??

 

[bcp]

The capstan winches I've seen on vehicles were worm drive like that.

Bruce

 

[J Man]

The capstan winches I've seen on vehicles were worm drive like that.

Bruce

Yes it would be a worm gear pto winch. My question is would it work as a capstan winch if you used rope and just threw a few wraps around drum and started pulling logs. Of corse it would have to have a more sophisticated guide system for the rope on and off spool. Seems like it would be inexpensive if person got the winch fairly cheap and had fabricating skills. What are your thoughts?

 

[bcp]

A regular PTO winch is supported by bearings on both ends of the drum. A capstan winch on only one end. A drive meant for a capstan may have a different bearing system to better support the capstan. The gear would need bearings on both sides to support the pull.

Maybe an adaptation of a marine capstan winch.
https://duckduckgo.com/?t=ffsb&q=marine+capstan+winch&iax=images&ia=images

Bruce

 

[czechsonofagun]

Cool project!

 

[PILOON]

Talk of needing dual bearing support for capstan winch,------- well many cars use hubs that contain dual bearings and such a hub might just be the structural basis for a DIY capstan winch.

Actually a bare rim would make for the drum if only it were a smaller diameter.
A 90 deg gear box coupled to the PTO and welded/attached to wheel hub and voila a capstan winch.
LOL, with a car rim you'd not need many wraps either to be effective.

OK, laugh as it would be clumsy looking but bet it would work just fine.

 

[J Man]

Talk of needing dual bearing support for capstan winch,------- well many cars use hubs that contain dual bearings and such a hub might just be the structural basis for a DIY capstan winch.

Actually a bare rim would make for the drum if only it were a smaller diameter.
A 90 deg gear box coupled to the PTO and welded/attached to wheel hub and voila a capstan winch.
LOL, with a car rim you'd not need many wraps either to be effective.

OK, laugh as it would be clumsy looking but bet it would work just fine.

Ok, maybe I didn稚 explain my potential project clear enough? I know the difference between a normal capstan winch and other winches. What I have access to is a old Braden cable style winch with a standard horizontal drum æ¾±earings on both ends of corse and it is PTO driven. I do not know the winches gear ratio yet. And I would like to make it into a inexpensive light duty tractor style logging winch. I know people like to stay away from pto driven cable winches for these applications for the obvious and well covered reasons. So I had the idea of using rope on the existing drum just like you would on a capstan winch so I would have control of the load just like a capstan style winch. And this would be for processing my own fire wood, no high production logging. So my main question to you folks was do you think it would work more on the lines of rope slippage and recovery speed? I realize there is potential for rope wrapping on itself 努ould have to make rope guides like a true capstan and the extra effort to feed rope around the drum. Like many people I don稚 have thousands of dollars to buy a logging winch or the demand to justify buying one. I can fabricate and have resources to make stuff so this is weæ±*e I am at.

 

[MossRoad]

I'd find out the speed of it when hooked to a PTO before you proceed. It may be fine the way it is. Or, it may be too slow. It also might be of enough value to trade for a capstan winch and avoid the hassle of building it yourself. Or at least give you some good funds towards a capstan winch.

 

[SpringHollow]

How are you going to release the pressure of the rope on the drum in a setup like that? I am not sure it is open enough to allow you to not melt/burn your rope.

Ken

 

[J Man]

How are you going to release the pressure of the rope on the drum in a setup like that? I am not sure it is open enough to allow you to not melt/burn your rope.

Ken

No different than standard capstan. Just let loose?? Like I said in previous post I would would have to install some on/off drum rope guides like a normal capstan and of corse you wouldn稚 use the full length of the drum. Just throw 3.4,5 wraps around it and go. Yes a little extra work to wrap the rope but once it痴 on there it showed be good to go.

 

[SpringHollow]

With a conventional winch, the enclosed nature of the winch might not let the rope release enough. If you customized the frame to make it larger, you would be ok.

 

[lennyzx11]

“Throwing a wrap” on or off a cathead (capstan winch) is key to using one. The end has to be open for it to work or getting a wrap crossed over a lower one will create tension that is hard to release.
I spent several years running one building cell towers with one.

I met a crew that used a rim on the pickups rear axle with the tire removed. Heard about it in the industry as not uncommon.

My stepdad had a pulpwood truck with a rear axle laid across the frame right behind the cab that was PTO driven into the differential. It was his loader/puller.

A hand brake on either side had to be locked for the opposite to work. The rims outer edges were cut down some as I recall. I was only 8-9 years old back then.

 

[Sportsman762]

Here is my two cents on using a winch as a capstan.

My experience with a capstan is helping a friend who is a well driller. He specializes in fishing, and for a pump hoist he utilizes a rig is Grandfather built in 1949. It is on an International 140 and utilizes a Ford TT rear axle that has been shortened, and two capstans put on the ends. The working rope is 1" sisal, because it holds well, and can handle some burning. When your holding a 1000lbs of pipe and tooling while setting a clamp, the rope might burn a little. Because the rig is used 6-7 days a week, the capstans are always shiny. We ALWAYS throw the rope off the capstan when not in use. This is a critical safety measure. One little bur or the old opening for the winch cable grabbing the rope, or an accidental pull and the capstan is going to be sucking in rope. I can hold a 50lb piece of pipe up in the air with two wraps on the capstan, and the rope just sitting in my hand, moving my hand will raise and lower the pipe. less than a pound of force on my end causes the capstan to put out 50 lbs on the other. A rusty capstan would suck in rope, just by laying the rope on it. It would not take much for the end of that rope to be wrapped around something that it should not, like your foot. How would you spool out rope if your cannot take it off without it tightening down on the capstan? Also since your using it in a low use situation the capstan will get rusty. This will increase the friction and cause the rope to grab the capstan. Utilizing a winch as a capstan is dangerous, you must be able to flick the rope off and change number of wraps to match job.

Use your PTO winch as a winch, it will be less dangerous than utilizing it as a capstan. Capstans are amazing machines, and the amount of control they give you is nice. However you must be safe with them, don't cross your ropes, and don't leave rope on it. Some winches have capstans on the side, this would let you have the best of both worlds. Perhaps some other method utilized as a capstan would be a safer choice.

 

[Smokeydog]

Seen line trucks with bumper winches with a capstan spool on the outside of the bumper.
Right about being open ended and polished to work properly. Also puts operator 180* from the load for better sight and control.
Just in case how are you going to stop the winch, capstan or tractor quickly?
Lack of funds to justify dangerous operations is seldom a bargain.

 

[Mcdust]

So I log maybe a dozen trees a year, and due to living on horribly rocky property, just getting to the trees is half the battle. A winch is the obvious answer, but the electric ones aren't really up to the task, and a Farmi-style winch cost too much for how little I'd use it. Thus I eventually found the idea of a PTO Capstan winch appealing, and decided to give that a try.

View attachment 542565

The heart of my winch is this gear box. It's a 4:1 reduction, with a ~1" input shaft and 2 ~1.375" output shafts (shafts are actually metric sized). It's new-old stock, costing me $75 at the local scrap yard. I wish I could tell you more about it, but there is not a single manufacturers marking on it. Given it's weight and shaft sizes, I figured it'd tolerate the abuse a winch would give it, it's at least three times the size of a typical PTO snowblower gearbox.

In that picture, you can see the first winch drum I made, as well as the splined PTO adapter already installed. I copied the design of the PTO adapter from my snowblower, it has a 7/16" bolt, designed to shear out at at around 20HP of input, and disconnect gearbox from the PTO. So far in use, the winch is impossible to stall, the ropes just slip instead.

View attachment 542566

The winch drums I turned from big chunks of aluminum. To get the nice end flares, I had to also build a ball/radius turner. In the end I wished I had made the end flanges even bigger, as the rope wants to jump off them sometimes. A slight knurl on the drums helps with grip.

I had read a comment somewhere on TBN, that aluminum drums don't hold up in use. And they are right. The extreme pressure the rope is under, when wrapped around the drum, will cause any dirt on the rope to chew into the drum. So far it isn't been a show-stopper, easy enough to file the drums smooth again. But I see making steel drums in my future.

View attachment 542567

One drum is 3", the other drum is 5". In theory the 3" drum winds the rope in slower, but has far more torque than the 5". The equations for winch drum torque is a bit counter-intuitive, smaller drums make more torque. Look up winch equations before making yours. In actual practice, I've noticed no real difference between the two, and just use whatever drum is convenient.

View attachment 542568

With the gearbox and drums done, I started building a frame to hold it. The main box is 3"x2" 3/16" rectangular tube. It's stupid overkill for this, but I had 20' of it laying around. Originally I tested the winch with just this upper frame, no ground-engaging bits. It would mostly just cause the tractor to be dragged toward the log.

View attachment 542569

So needing a "ground brake", I mostly just copied what I saw on Farmi-style winches. Upper plate is 1/8", lower plate is installed at a bit of a angle, made of 3/16". Teeth on the lower plate probably not needed, but, teeth are cool.

When in use, I find the tractor slides about 3-6" inches until the teeth have dug in. But once they are dug in good, tractor is planted doesn't move anymore, no matter what.

View attachment 542570

In some sense, the entire winch is built around the gearbox. Since the gearbox had mounting holes on all sides, I used them. The front has some chain hooks to attach logs to. The back has a PTO guard I bent up. And naturally the top-link just bolts right to the top. This particular top-link design bent a bit a little in use, I have a new one made but haven't tested it out yet.

For rope, I first tried 3/8" synthetic winch rope. One trip through the winch, and that rope is now pancake flat. Next I tried 5/8" double braided nylon rope. That worked well until outer cover got a small tear on it, and then it quickly unraveled. Finally I settled on 5/8" three-strand-twisted rope. It is holding up the best, but nevertheless the winch is very hard on any rope you run through it. I expect to replace the rope fairly frequently. (5/8 x 1 NYLON ANCHOR ROPE/ DOCK LINE W/ SS Thimble ***MUST READ DESCRIPTION** | eBay)

Winch In Action Movie

Finally, in use, the winch works about as well as I expected. I haven't attempted to measure it's pull strength, but I believe the math on paper said 4000lbs.

I mostly pull 10', 20" diamater sized logs with it, weighing about 1000lbs each. If there are no obstructions, it pulls them like they aren't even there. More challenging pulls it will do too, I managed to rip a 200lb rock buried 16" deep out with it. On the other hand, it does eventually run out of torque. Hit a really big rock at a bad angle, and the rope will just slip. But for un-obstructed pulls, I think it will easily do everything I ask of it.

The pulling speed in the video looks slow, but I almost always use it with the tractor near idle and never feel the need for it to go faster. The total time waiting for the winch is a rounding error compared to all the other work involved.

One other thing I should note, is there is no way this thing is as safe as a "normal" winch. At least twice I've gotten the rope tangled on the drum, and once tangled it will start to self-feed. This leaves you diving for the PTO shut off switch. It could really use some type of disconnect clutch, just for safety reasons.

As well I should mention rope stretch. Some of the nylon rope I tested with the winch had a massive amount of stretch to it. You could start winching, pull 5' of rope through the winch, and your log wouldn't have moved an inch. Then suddenly it would "unload", and the log would jump 5'. Then the process would repeat itself. So obviously, use low-stretch rope if you can.

That all said, for the ~$300 worth of material I have into it, hard to beat. Capstan winches are super affordable if you have the tools to build them.

Hi, As a lifelong wharf rat I know that nylon is preferred as an anchor line because the stretch helps prevent jerking you around ( and pulling out the anchor) PolyDacron is probably a much better choice. They have some on Amazon