PT1445 Stuck again

[PT1445Farmer]

Not 2 operating hours after "fixing" the broken cylinder and hose issue, my PT1445 croaked again. The forward/reverse pedals do nothing now. The lift works, but nothing else. Before it finally died, I had lifted a heavy item with my forks and there was suddenly oil shooting out of the top of the reservoir, or so it seemed. I quickly dropped the item and it stopped, no leaking anywhere. So I went about my business.
Mowed for about an hour, then at the very end, it just would not go.
Any ideas on what to check?

Per last time my PT died on me, I am not at my farm, and will be traveling next week so there will be delays - suspense building as I call it - before I can provide answers and results.

Once again, thanks in advance for all help and advice!

 

[woodlandfarms]

I have no idea how you could have oil coming out of the tank. Are you sure it was out of the tank lid? We are referring to the tank under the seat, right?

I think on my PT the treddle circuit is on the same as the lift tilt and steering. Your steering is still working, right?

It sounds to me like you had to leave before you had a chance to lift the lid and take a look at what might have failed. I assume that you did not get a chance to check oil levels or such?

One thought that comes to mind is that you have a ruptured or loose hose. That your oil level dropped, exposing air to the tram circuit, so it would no longer operate, but keeping oil avail for the lift tilt dump (Assuming they are at a different level, don't know your tank).

But, saddly I think you are going to have to go return, and we are going to have to talk you through this. Maybe an Iphone would be a good purchase, one you can surf the web on and ask us questions...

Make sure you take out a pressure guage with various fittings, that will be the first thing you are going to get asked about after you check if you have oil....

 

[ponytug]

If your lift, tilt/curl, and steering work, then the auxiliary pump circuit is functioning. If some subset doesn't work, then you have an issue in that area, as they are all driven off the same pump.

I worry that the reason you had oil spurting out of the tank was air being sucked in somewhere from a loose hydraulic filter or hose.

If they are all working, then you might double check the brake circuit. You might want to check that as you turn the parking brake on and off, the spring moves on the pressure regulator (aka charging circuit, the black box on the left rear, near the oil dipstick, but on the tub.)

Good luck!

All the best,

Peter

 

[Bob999]

I wonder if the "suddenly oil shooting out of the top of the reservoir, or so it seemed" could be a pressure relief valve opening as a result of the heavy lift.

If the above speculation has merit that would suggest to me that the problem with the tram system, which occurred an hour later, is unrelated.

In trouble shooting the tram circuit the first thing I would check is adequate hydraulic fluid supply and then ensure that movement of the pedal actually activates the swash plate in the variable displacement pump. On my machine with the mechanical control that actuation is visible--but I don't know how one would verify that with the hydraulic control on newer machines. Perhaps an owner with the hydraulic system can provide a suggestion.

 

[ponytug]

Dear Bob999,

There is no externally visible indicator; you would need pressure gauges on the output of the pump. I think it is one of those good news/bad news items.

I think we need some more data from PT1445Farmer to narrow the possibilities down, don't you?

All the best,

Peter

I wonder if the "suddenly oil shooting out of the top of the reservoir, or so it seemed" could be a pressure relief valve opening as a result of the heavy lift.

If the above speculation has merit that would suggest to me that the problem with the tram system, which occurred an hour later, is unrelated.

In trouble shooting the tram circuit the first thing I would check is adequate hydraulic fluid supply and then ensure that movement of the pedal actually activates the swash plate in the variable displacement pump. On my machine with the mechanical control that actuation is visible--but I don't know how one would verify that with the hydraulic control on newer machines. Perhaps an owner with the hydraulic system can provide a suggestion.

 

[Bob999]

Dear Bob999,

I think we need some more data from PT1445Farmer to narrow the possibilities down, don't you?

Yes, I agree.

 

[PT1445Farmer]

To all the posts above - great suggestions!
I checked out the formerly stuck PT and it worked. I don't think I am out of the woods though. As usual, it was pegged at the 240 degree overheating mark, losing power as happened when I first used it for mowing.

When I get back to it on next Friday - have to check out a farm in Palm Springs growing biodiesel first - then I will go through the list of things to check all of you provided.

Will definitely update as this progresses. Either way, I need to throw everything I can to cool this beast down. I cannot run it for more than 30 minutes without it boiling.

 

[woodlandfarms]

Before you go to the sticks, you need to buy two things. You need to get a pressure guage (Hydraulic) and the assorted Pipes and fittings. JJ is brilliant at suggesting for your needs. Also, you need to get a Infrared thermometer or something similar.

Your tractor has two oil systems, one for the engine, and one for the Hydraulics. The engine heat is monitored on your dash. Saddly there is not system to monitor your Hydraulics, so you are going to get a thermometer to measure it.

You say you keep overheating the engine (the guage pegs) but you have updated the cooling by adding screens, and you clean the ENGINE COOLER by blowing it from the top, and by opening the side cover and blowing it out from the bottom?

If this is the case I wonder if there is something else going south... How dry and dusty are your conditions?

Also, you say now your tractor is tramming correctly again?

Oh, and Palm Springs California?

 

[SpringHollow]

When cleaning the engine oil radiator, i get an amazing amount of stuff coming off when i use soap&water through the engine cleaner wand that i do not remove with just air.

Ken

 

[J_J]

PT1445Farmer,

240 degrees is way to high to keep using the machine with the temp as it is. One of the main things to cause heating like that in a hydraulic system is a relief valve over working. In order to cause that, something is not working as it should. Since you don't know the static temps of the machine, you can observe the temps at different places on the machine when first started and log them down after a few min of warm up, using a temp gun. I would recommend that you put it up on blocks, fill the hyd tank to correct level. Check the small things first, like steering, lift. How many pumps do you have on your machine? I have one for steering and lift, one for PTO. and the tram pump. If you were not using the PTO, you could eliminate that, You just rebuilt a part of the steering circuit. Could be a problem if you did not put things back together correctly. You said you were lifting something heavy, perhaps the relief valve was activating, You did say that it stopped lifting, or slow to lift. Have you thought about the brakes dragging, that would put a load on the tram pump. My tram pump has two relief valves in it, and if they were bypassing fluid, things would heat up rather quickly. What you have to know about relief valves is that they are spring loaded to relieve the pressure greater than the set pressure for normal operation. If you continue to overload, say the lift circuit pump, by working the forks past the limits, the relief valve will relieve until the pressure is back where it should be. The relief valve only has a small opening to let excess fluid out, and this generates heat. Just extending the forks to the limit and holding it tee will do the same thing. If you have an temp gun, check around the relief valves. A clogged up QD might be suspect. Maybe a crimped hose. An in-fared camera could show you many things. Put some gages in the system and check things out.

 

[J_J]

PT1445Farmer,

Can you explain further about the fluid spraying out of the tank area. If you saw some spray, then it was under pressure. Did you ever find the source of the fluid.

It still ticks me off every time anyone has some trouble with their machine, that no one has a decent operation, or trouble shooting manual , probably not even a parts manual. We can all blame this on PT Executives for NOT providing us with what should be a part of the purchase. We should all join in on a class action suit to get a decent operations manual with hydraulic circuit diagrams, electrical diagrams, with pictures, etc, from day one of production.

 

[ldabe]

PT1445Farmer,

Can you explain further about the fluid spraying out of the tank area. If you saw some spray, then it was under pressure. Did you ever find the source of the fluid.

It still ticks me off every time anyone has some trouble with their machine, that no one has a decent operation, or trouble shooting manual , probably not even a parts manual. We can all blame this on PT Executives for NOT providing us with what should be a part of the purchase. We should all join in on a class action suit to get a decent operations manual with hydraulic circuit diagrams, electrical diagrams, with pictures, etc, from day one of production.

I'm in JJ! Point in the direction to place my John Hancock.

 

[Gravy]

I'll give a dissenting opinion here. This is based on my 10 years experience working in PT's home region. This is purely opinion.

I agree that it sucks that PT doesn't provide useful documentation with the machines. However, I suspect that suing them over the issue would only make things worse. In this economy, it might well drive them into bankruptcy. I don't think any of us would benefit from that.

From PT's standpoint, paying somebody to spend the many many hours required to research and write legally correct manuals for all of their products is likely cost prohibitive.

I will reiterate an impression I have previously tried to express - PT's are not a finely developed and fully supported commercial product. A PT is more like a product of of your crazy genius redneck uncle Fred - he done built it, and it works pretty well, but even he don't really know why...

If Cat or Bobcat or one of the European manufacturers offered a PT425, it would come with DVD's and a 24 hour tech support line answered by somebody in India, and at least 6 more safety interlock switches. And a microprocessor or three. It would also likely cost upwards of $30,000.

In contrast, PT's are a byproduct of the American coal mining industry. This is not an industry built on liability torts and EU safety standards. It's more about getting the job done with the materials at hand, and an acceptance of more risk than the average American is accustomed to.

I think of a PT as kind of a kit machine. They assume that the machines are simple enough and the buyers are smart enough that we can figure them out.

We can't sue good manuals into existence. PT isn't going to hire technical writers to put Terry's knowledge into print. Terry will continue to try to help us while remaining loyal to the company. If we try to force compliance with commercial tractor industry standards, the most likely outcome is that the powers that be at PT will decide that it's no longer profitable to to continue to operate.

I don't see that as working out well for any of us. I think PT should do better at technical support and manuals. I think we should encourage that and ***** about it. But I also think we should be appreciative that PT goes out on the limb to provide these weird machines that work for us where the standard machines don't.

Gravy

 

[toy]

I think they are a pretty simple machine myself. I probably can't do all the repairs that may be needed on it sometime in the future, but I don't know that for sure. I believe that many of us that have bought the pts have learned skills that maybe they wouldn't have with one of the more complicated machines on the market today. I believe a person could start at the pumps and follow the hoses to where they go and map out a pretty good idea of a problem that might occur in the future if they record these hose locations. If you have a hose that does burst try to get the same length hose and reroute it in the same path that the busted hose ran in. If you do have a problem try to stay calm and think simple before you start thinking complicated, many of the problems that may arise are simple and when we get it figured out and fix it we get a feeling of satisfaction. I really like my pt, I know it has some short comings but I also know that it has a lot of things that make it stand out that over powers it's short comings for the needs that I have. When I first got my machine it had numbers on the ends of the hoses that I believe if I had wrote where say #6 hose started and where it ended I would have had a good diagram of it but I didn't and that is a regret of mine.

 

[Bob999]

I'll give a dissenting opinion here. This is based on my 10 years experience working in PT's home region. This is purely opinion.

I agree that it sucks that PT doesn't provide useful documentation with the machines.

I agree. However, I purchased the machine knowing the limited documentation provided with the machine. There was never a representation to the contrary. For that reason alone I see no basis for seeking redress for the shorcomings in the documentation.

It seems to me that the appropriate course of action for those who want complete documentation is to buy a machine that comes with the desired documentation.

 

[MossRoad]

The machines are what they are. Crude and simple. They work and they break. We fix 'em. Then they work again. I don't need no stinkin' manual to show me a welded heavy steel box with holes cut in it is a tractor body. And a tire is a tire and a hose is a hose. A pump is a pump and an engine is an engine. I don't do hydraulic pump repair so I don't need a manual for that. I do my own engine work, so I bought some books on that, but really, only for the engine specs, as the theory of operation is pretty much the same as the lawnmower engine I rebuilt with my dad when I was 10 years old. Anyone that did any research into these machines before purchase should have known what they were getting themselves into. That's just my opinion. I love my machine. It does what I bought it to do and then some. Would I buy another one? Maybe. I do not like the reports from newer owners regarding cold weather starting problems. That would be my only hesitation.

 

[J_J]

With all due respect, I think some of you are cutting PT to much slack, for whatever reason. This is a one store operation for the PT product, and since we can not drive up the street and look at a schematic, or take a part in to compare. I am talking world wide, although I don't see many overseas sales. Looking at warranty work. Sure they will replace parts, but you are expected to fix it yourself. Most people do not buy things thinking that they will have to fix it themselves. There is absolutely no excuse for not having a shop manual that covers the PT products from front to back, leaving nothing out. I think it is very wrong to give them a free ride. They are hoping that you don't raise many concerns about the lack of documentation. As far as fixing the machine, most anybody with good common sense, can probably repair anything on the PT except maybe the tram pump. Some people get these machines because they just like what they can do. They have to rely on other people to fix or help with fixing. I think it is sad that the one guy at PT is the only one that can answer technical questions, except for the PT owner/opeerators that have fixed their machine by trial and error. You would think that PT would at least leave the manufacture name and part number on the pumps and motors,etc, but no, they want you to only purchase from them, and then you have to have a min order of at least $50. I guess they don't realize that we can determine the cu in required, and the HP required to drive a certain attachment, and the shaft and hose particulars, and find replacement parts that are better and cheaper. Whenever you guys call PT about something, you should ask for hydraulic schematics, electrical diagrams, etc. Of course they will snicker and laugh, and say we are working on it, maybe next year. I did get them to email me a page out of the parts manual once. Is there any three of you that have the same machine, with same hydraulic setup, etc? Even with things like test ports in key locations, would be a big help in trouble shooting.
Some of you think it is a big deal to produce manuals. We did this kind of work in the Navy, developing lesson guides, with pictures, slides, etc. including theory of operations, and troubleshooting procedures, etc. I don't even want to hear, well, why don't you volunteer to work up a set of manuals. It could probably be done in 3 to 6 mo given free access to all the machines, and be able to copy/extract Terry,s knowledge base. Not only the machines, but the attachments as well.

You guys should realize, that this is the only knowledge base in the world for the PT.

Just for instance, my Case skidsteer manual is about 4 in thick, and covers just about everything, from front to back, with serial numbers group breakdowns, etc.

Enough ranting, just chime in if you want to.

 

[KentT]

JJ,

Ever thought that your perspective may be influenced by the fact that you have a quite old, one-off machine, that likely no one knows a whole lot about -- because they weren't in production long enough to have a track record?

I'd certainly appreciate a more detailed owner's manual, and the commercial specs/part numbers for the components, but I agree with Gravy and Bob999. (a) We're likely not going to get more documentation than we have, and (b) I knew that when I bought my machine USED.

Further, though I bought my machine used, Terry and the folks at Tazewell have been just as helpful as if I bought it from them new... I've encountered dealers from the "big names" that didn't want to take the time to look up part numbers for older machines, because they knew you didn't buy it from the them, and likely wouldn't buy a new machine from them...

 

[Marks481]

My PT422 came with a 29 page manual with pictures and (PT) part numbers for every single component. No fluid diagrams; kind of lacking in that department. Pretty sad, since I am sure Terry could draw one up in about 15 minutes. The hydraulic circuit is very basic and simple. No electrical diagram, but then there isn't much of an electrical circuit either (the important parts you can find in the Robin engine manual).

I know it is not 4" thick, but then again there really isn't very much to this vehicle.

It would be poor marketing to provide the end users with commercial OTS part numbers. No different then my Toyota truck; do you think Toyota is going to let me know what parts to buy from aftermarket suppliers? Parts provided after the sale provides a significant source of income. That seems to be a widely accepted policy.

I agree with Mossroad. It is what it is.

 

[J_J]

You guys really want to know why you don't have good documentation on the PT's? It is simply because you didn't insist they provide same. Some of you guys may love your PT, maybe because that is what you have to work with. Although the PT is a useful machine, I use it for it's attributes, and when it won't do the job at hand, I may use the Kubota, or Ford 8N, of Case skidsteer, or whatever. . My PT being old doesn't matter, it still functions quite well, and in fact, it maybe easier to maintain and operate than other newer machines. The parts that I have asked for from PT, were way to high, and what they sent me was the wrong part, but that was what they had on hand. I had to compensate for the lack of tilt, based on the tilt/rollover assembly.

I purchased my 1445 used, and at todays prices, I could not, nor would not purchase a new PT plus attachments. I am talking about $38,100.00 Now, don't get me wrong, it does quite well with the attachments at hand, new or used. The package deal was a good deal for me as I only paid $6500.00. No body and I mean no body should have to spend that much money, and not get a decent operation and parts manual, and a min on parts, just bs. You can cut them slack all you want, and that is the reason that you don't have anything worth while to look out and figure things out. How about the guy that has a PT and no computer, all he can do is talk to Terry.

Can you fix things on the PT, why sure. It is just plain and simple hydraulics. I could probably tear into the tram pump if I had seen it done a couple of times. Every thing else is just common sense.

On the class action suit, it was mainly said in jest, because I know you guys have already accepted what is, and perhaps you just don't care. How about all the other people that would perhaps purchase a PT if they knew they had everything necessary to help fix things. You don't have to know very much if you have a good manual, as you well know. Just what did they tell you guys when you purchased the PT, [ We are the best, it don't break, and you don't need no stinking manual ] Sorry if I hurt anybodies feelings, but that is the way I see things.

I could probably make a manual for myself, because I have taken just about everything apart, and have pictures, except the engine and tram pump, and I have a spare tram pump.

Rant, rant, all I have to do on a rainy Sat afternoon