pricing a tilling job

[RonR]

"tell the prospective customer I have no insurance... and leave it up to them..."

Wow Dave!

Can you visualize your nice potential customer sitting in your house, driving your cars, boats, and tractors, spending your 401K and the total value of your house?????

I can almost guarantee you two things. If you use your CUT on your property and something happens, like it burns up, or you richochette a rock through the patio window or off Junior's forehead, your homeowners insurance will most likely cover it.

I can also almost POSITIVELY guarantee you that if you take your CUT off your property, and do work for hire (even if you do it for free probably), and the same loss or injury occurs, your nice homeowner's insurance is going to point to the fine print in your contract and let you know that you are ON YOUR OWN for this one.

Your formerly nice customer/neighbor/friend's lawyer is going to take you to the cleaners. My tractor never left my property until had had both liabilitity coverage and an inland marine coverage (covers loss to my equipment).

Sure insurance is a bite in the behind. But I couldn't sleep nights knowing I was operating my stuff without coverage.............

Best wishes,
Ron

 

[Dave___in___CT]

Thanks for your input...


I know my homeowner's insurance only covers while on my property... and seperate $1 million off-premesis liability policy is $500 per year... but only if the work is not paid for...

Any idea on the cost of $1 million liability insurance if you get paid for the work ? What kinda' policy covers this ?

Thanks...


Dave...

 

[RonR]

I can't tell you the split, but my inland marine (covers loss of equipment due to off or on property from fire, theft, vandalism, etc) and $1M liability insurance is $950 a year.

I had trouble finding it locally (KS), and several when they heard I had a FEL, said "Enough--we can't cover you if you excavate".

I plan to shop some more at the end of the year to see if I can find it cheaper. But also I'm just starting the biz, and several won't cover you till you've been in biz 2+ years (catch22).

Good Luck.
Ron

 

[tawilson]

I don't have the papers in front of me, but I think $2,000,000 worth of insurance was $700. I know the whole policy was $1300, which included $30,000 worth of equipment coverage and snowplowing insurance. I had to go through a couple of agents before I could find one that even sold it. But it wasn't as much as I expected.

 

[avclay]

Does anyone have a standard "hold harmless" agreement they use? Last time I checked for insurance it was $6k! This was with a dump truck. I'll price just a tractor before the season starts but it seems like I'll be working several jobs before I even pay for the insurance!

 

[RonR]

Hah, that's good AVCLAY!

When I applied for a biz license, the city planner called me and wanted to make sure I wouldn't park a paddle scrapper, dozer, and dump truck either on my street or in the front yard.

When I explained the size of my Bota and that all my stuff would easily fit in my garage or in the back yard, he kinda laughed and said ok..... He said they have to make sure people know with the zoning, you can't convert your home into an industrial park........

On your hold harmless document, my guess is any law school could teach a couple semester classes on how to render your hold harmless document invalid, resulting in you being AT FAULT.

With the way our country is right now, I think you want the full backing of a reputable insurance company behind you with their army of attorneys at the ready in case something happens or you blink and do something stupid.

I think that in assessing what to buy or what jobs to perform, one needs to determine both the cost to acquire and INSURE the product. I don't plan to haul or deliver any products, nor deal with any chemicals (that will jack the bill!), nor sell any products, so I don't have to charge/collect/submit sales taxes.

Good luck with your document! (grin)
Ron

 

[8561]

There often seems to be a lot of confusion on insurance and the homowners policy, specifically coverage for using it on premise as opposed to off premise. If you are interested in an explaination the attached link is a pretty good one.
http://www.faia.com/education/edlibrary/mowers.cfm
This coverage analysis is for a standard homeowners (HO3) policy sold by most companies through an independent agent (not a State Farm/Allstate type, theirs are somewhat different in some aspects).
When reading, Section I refers to property coverage (house, personal belongings, etc.), Section II refers to your liability coverage. In virtually all cases, if you are engaging in a business pursuit (money or the like changes hands), then coverage in most cases will not be available. Always check with your own agent/company for specific advice that applies to you and your situation.

 

[caddison]

Daycab, I am in NW Missouri. My minimum for tilling is $15.00. Some gardens can take a little as 10 minutes, takes longer to unload the tractor! Are you going to be trailering your tractor? Scheduling can also help. Lining up more than one job can make tilling much more profitable.....heck there is no profit but it is fun and you can have a tax write off /forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif! Sometimes I would unload my tractor at my mothers whom lived in town and would scedule several jobs throughout the day. If the jobs are close you can do alright....my problem is I like to vist and the 10 minute job turns into 30-45....oh well! Nothing like tilling up a nice garden though! I alos have an hourly rate of $35.00 for larger areas and other jobs such as mowing and loader work.

 

[tawilson]

If you did something at a customers home which required him to file a claim with his homeowners policy, I'll bet that insurance company will come after you no matter what kind of agreement you have, and even if it is ironclad, you will still be paying a lawyer to fight it.

 

[Dave___in___CT]

Hi...

Once you get some history of jobs... total time... costs...
...should be able to set a "per square foot" price for tilling... pre-tilled... & new ground breaking...

Will make pricing easier...


Dave...

 

[caddison]

Tim,

Most insurance companies have an endorsement called "other business pursuits" that may be obtained for an additional amount of premium. Most times they will have a maximum gross receipt you can earn before the pursuit is considered commercial. General liability will run $500.00 plus per year on the average. Check with your agent and look your policy over and watch for exclusions! If the agent doesn't answer your question to your satisfaction have him contact an underwriter to make sure. If the agent says you are covered get it in writing. If he is wrong when it comes time to file a claim then he will be making a claim on his E&O policy. Better to be safe than sorry!

 

[smilingreen]

Ok, I will post on this one....ARE YOU NUTS???!!! You tell the customer, which is off site from your property that you will drive your vehicle, trailer and tractor with implements on their property, run your machine on their property and if something happens and someone gets hurt or property is damaged, that you have no insurance and it is their problem???!!!
OK, hold me back here. I am a professional landscaper. I own my own company. I own my own equipment. I pay thousands of dollars a year in insurance to have my own company and the "privelege" to be my own boss. I can tell you this, and I am not picking on you in general, leave your tractor at home on the farm. You have absolutely NO business taking your machine off your farm and doing jobs for hire. Infact, if you check with your local city business ordinances, you will find you are breaking the law.

1. To do business for hire, you need to be licensed as a business in the county where you live. That means you need a business license.
2. To do work as a business, part time or full time, you MUST have equipment liability insurance, company liability insurance, commercial vehicle liability insurance, workmans comp insurance, your vehicles and trailers must have license plates that are designated as "commercial". This also means that your trailers must have electric brakes on them and equipment be properly fastened to them.
3. As a business, you need to find out what the local competition is charging and stick close to that rate. Don't be a "low baller" or a "weekend warrior" and stiffly underbid the competition. You think it will get you ahead of the game, but you will be labled as a low baller and will not be respected in the local industry.

The biggest problem we face in the professional landscape industry is low ballers who do not have any idea or experience in what they are doing. These people mess up more jobs by not having the right equipment and experience in the line of work they are doing. I, as a Professional Landscaper, have had to come in and clean up more jobs done by these people then I can count.
If you are going to do dirt work, do you know the EPA rules on properly containing disturbed soil? Do you know how to compact the dirt you just spread or tilled to keep errosion down? Do you own a "transit" or a visual horizontal sight level and know how to properly use it? Do you know how to grade dirt so that water flows properly and not create a pool of water in someones yard? If you don't know how to do these things yet, stay on the farm and practice there. Do not practice your technique on a customers site. If you do, they will be your customer only once. They won't call you back again. They will call me to come in and fix the problem and then I will be getting their business from here on out.
Yes, insurance is expensive. My customers are always surprised by my quotes. But, when I show them( and yes, on occasion , I do show them) what I pay per year in insurance, business licenses and a long list of very happy references, they are happy to pay the price, because the higher price is long forgotten when they can enjoy quality craftmanship for many years to come. And, when this happens, they are happy to tell other people about your company and the services you offer. I should know, I have not had to advertise in over 2 years now, and my business has, at least, doubled each year.
As I said before, I am not picking on you in general. The Professional Landscapers of America are just getting sick and tired of our industry getting a bad REP from people who don't have any business doing this type of work, confusing the general public with low balled prices for sub standard work and leaving the job site a mess or something damaged and not claiming responsibility for it.

OK....I am done now.

Dave Bonner
Wilson Lawn & Field Maint. INC.

 

[normde2001]

Nice (long) tirade, but what does all of that have to do with Dave-in-Ct?

 

[Old_Hickory]

He is replying to this post earlier in this thread.


"Insurance...

I tell the prospective customer I have no insurance... and leave it up to them...

Anyone know where the responsibility lies if something happens at the customer's property ?

Them ? ...or me.. ?


Dave... "

 

[smilingreen]

He has no insurance. He is implying he does work for people with absolutely no liability insurance on him or his equipment. He assumes that when something happens..(it is not a if, it is just when it happens) the customer will just absorb the cost them selves. Thats what has me all fired up.

 

[Old_Hickory]

Dave,
I am with you.
I was trying to answer normde2001's question.

 

[avclay]

smilinggreen;
I really don't care who you think you are or aren't "picking on" in general or otherwise. You've used this topic to launch into your own tirade about what is obviously your own personal business problems. "You have absolutely NO business" telling me where I can take my machine or what I can do with it. Opinions are fine but baseless accusations
("Infact, if you check with your local city business ordinances, you will find you are breaking the law.") show your own prejudice and ignorance, unless of course you've actually researched "local city business ordinances" in all 50 states.
Fact is, I get along with local landscapers "professional" or not and they give me alot of side jobs they don't want to be bothered with. If I'm a "low baller" too bad - as long as the customer is informed about who and what they're getting, they've got every right to pick whoever they want to do the work - there are no laws or "local city business ordinances" saying they have to hire a "professional" lanscaper. If I get jammed up without insurance its on me.
Consider me a PROUD "weekend warrior!"

 

[Dave___in___CT]

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( He has no insurance. He is implying he does work for people with absolutely no liability insurance on him or his equipment. He assumes that when something happens..(it is not a if, it is just when it happens) the customer will just absorb the cost them selves. Thats what has me all fired up. )</font>

Hi...

In Connecticut... someone doing landscaping work... (and other type of work too)...
IS NOT REQUIRED TO HAVE LIABILITY INSURANCE...
...fact...

I'm up-front... and tell the potential customer that I do not have it... so they can make an informed decision to hire me or not... free choice...


Dave...

 

[MadReferee]

A business license, what is that?

Here in New Hampshire, as a sole proprietorship, LLC, or Inc., you do not need licenses for most operations including dirt moving, landscaping and snow plowing. Corporations and LLC's have certain legal requirements but specific licenses are not one of them. A city or town may require a license for certain store front businesses but it usually only a revenue generating method to help balance a budget on the backs of small businesses.

However, you can and should register your business name with the state and you still have to pay taxes and you still should have liability insurance but it is not required.

Just the way it should be - Live Free or Die.

 

[tawilson]

All I did was mention that insurance is something you should think about. It's your choice. I didn't mean to start anything. Oh, I made a mistake in my earlier post, I'm being sued for $2,000,000, not $200,000.