Buying Advice Prices seem up for both new and used...

[ultrarunner]

Forget Wall Street... invest in quality Tractors and Implements!

For the record I have virtually no holdings in Wall Street... but a tractor is a thing of beauty and ability to get things done.

Nothing brings a smile to my face like pulling out the 1953 NAA Jubilee... just how well it runs is a testament to it's design.

This morning SF Chronicle Newspaper has a 2005 Deere Model 5205 with 200 hours for $3600 and picture.

Call me skeptical but I though scammers only used Craigslist and Online venues???

Maybe I should give the number a call to find out... basic tractor with loader and rotary cutter.

Just called the number and the message says state your name and Google Voice will try to connect.

Do a lot of farmers use Google Voice???

 

[ultrarunner]

They just got a lead on this near where they live...

2016 Kubota L3301 4x4 35hp diesel 4x4 tractor, shuttle drive trans, 3pt, pto, only 630hrs, tractor is in outstanding condition!....has front loader and brand new box scraper with rippers 15k

 

[rScotty]

I think you said that this couple has zero seat time and are building on a hillside. That scares me because it means they have yet to make all the steep country mistakes that you and I both made and survived.... and we are both motorheads who understand these things.

Any tractor will do enough work for them to be a tremendous help. But living through the tractor-on-a-hillside mistakes that are sure to come should - to my mind anyway - be the single most important feature.

The L3301 seems priced OK and has the decent size and attachments - but in common configuration it is a narrow top-heavy tractor. Definitely worth checking out; but I wouldn't encourage them unless it was first fitted with industrial tires and rear wheel spacers to make it safer.. But it still no backhoe or thumb - both things that are a huge advantage to a person doing new building.

I can understand you not wanting to part with your JD 110TLB - good 110s are hard to find and I think that they are going to be a bit of a specialty collector item. In fact, they are already.

I would rather see them on a BX23 like you have/had.... It will still do real work, and it is inexpensive, hard to roll or turn over. In short, it will do work for them while also being something affordable they can learn on and survive while gaining the experience to make an informed choice on a larger tractor. Popular little machines that are NOT high dollar ollector's items.

In all probability they can use one of those tiny TLBs for years and still get 90% of what they paid for it. They are that popular. But it's the safety that I would like to see your relatives develop, and that is something best done on a small tractor.
Thanks for considering my opinion,
rScotty

 

[coobie]

A relative is getting ready to do site work and looking for a tractor.

I have not bought anything modern in some time.

Looking around it seems asking prices for some old Kubota tractors are close to what they cost new.

Even price checking the D3 dozer I sold indicate it has appreciated nicely over the last 5 years.

Craiglist 200 mile search has not helped... lots more big iron than anything else.

I'm thinking a L series would be ideal... L35 or L39 better or even a B26...

I have not used my Deere 110 much the last few years but am always being asked to sell...

My BX23 out the door was under 15k and I am seeing these 15 year old BX with asking prices of 12 to 13k...

Aside from Craigslist... any other avenues to check here in California?

I'm guessing anything new comes with Regen and software???

Emailed my Dealer and got an auto reply closed through Thanksgiving... hard working guy with little family time so can't blame him.

I believe used tractors sell so high because buyers don"t like regen/emissions on newer tractors.

 

[Turbys_1700]

Supply and demand coupled with increasing new prices and added EPA controls has led us to increased used prices...
That is a good deal on the 3301 but it is a Tier 4 unit with regen...
I advised a friend several years ago and he bought a 3301 with the dreaded regen...
Two years later and he has had zero issues...

 

[JimRB]

The hay farmer down the road keeps new Deere tractors. He hopes for reliable equipment and does not want to do maintenance. 60-100 something HP tractors. Indeed he had one go into limp mode/dead where it sat because of a sensor. He had another one he traded out that left him because of a defective sensor or switch. He found out later that the fired dealer mechanic did not change out the warranty switch. Limp mode/dead mode is a problem just like with pickup trucks when it happens to you. Pretty reliable unless you are the one who has the defective sensor.

 

[prof fate]

Get a horse then.

I remember folks saying that about cars too - first electronic ignitions, then catalytic converters and evaporative emmissions, etc.

HOWEVER, I remember adjusting points twice a year, changing plugs annually, wires every other year. I remember exhaust fumes (never liked them personally).

Cars today are a lot like refrigerators - change oil and drive 100,000 miles and do nothing else besides maybe brakes and tires.

My DPF equipped kioti runs clean - very clean. Kioti redesigned their engines to meet tier 4 - the benefit is they are SOO clean running their testing shows them lasting 20,000 hours! Oil change is 400 hour intervals. Yes, 400. Ye Olden days it was what, 50 or maybe 100?

My tractor regened at 34, 72 and 141 hours so far. Just keep on working, takes 10 minutes. Filter said to be good for 3000 hours, costs $300.

And there are NO fumes - which this time of year is handy as it needs to warm up in the barn a bit - no stink AT ALL, no smell at all. None.

"...I would not want to own anything with complicated emission controls ???"

DITTO...and DOUBLE DITTO !!!

 

[rScotty]

I believe used tractors sell so high because buyers don"t like regen/emissions on newer tractors.

Lots of people don't like the regen/emissions, but I wonder if it alone is big enough to be a major cause for high used prices??
It seems to me that for anything to affect something as large as the entire used market, the reason has to be something that applies to all used tractors - not just some.

My guess for a more universal reason would be that people are beginning to realize that tractors last much longer than other types of wheeled machines, and that most compact tractors only get used a few hundred hours per year instead of thousands of hours like farm machinery did. Then that compact tractor longevity gets multiplied because inflation affects the price of a new tractor but not used ones.

The result is that as each year passes, those older tractors keep on working just fine for their owners, while the price of new ones has to go up 3 to 4% each year just to match inflation's cost to manufacturing and dealerships - and that % is a compounded rate. I believe that's enough all by itself to explain the high used prices.
rScotty

 

[prof fate]

I work for a school bus contractor and he buys brand new 90,000 dollar buses. They DO NOT retain value for crap - a 15 year old bus with 100k miles is $5k, if that, at auction. 100k on a diesel is nothing.

Why buy new I asked? Down time and maintenance costs, pure and simple. Down time for a school bus means you need a back up bus - costly asset to be sitting around a lot of the time. Maintenance on 3 buses, no big deal. on 20? Now you need more than 1 mechanic, more garage space, bigger parts inventory - costs begin to rise rapidly. New buses are under warranty so there are no repair costs (and repair costs on a bus is very costly - we have a few old units - one needed a radiatior - $1200 plus our labor)

I have a farmer friend, cheap like many, his baler went down during hay season (duh..they don't break when parked!) and he spend an afternoon working on it - and said F'it, i need to get may hay in and when and bought another. The old one has been sitting for 3 years now - $300 he tells me I can have it.

When it's your living, your business, the economics change, the demands change. Your up-time needs to be damned near 100% on equipment or you fall behind schedule, lose money, lose customers, etc. the loss is more than the savings on used 'rundown' equipment.

The hay farmer down the road keeps new Deere tractors. He hopes for reliable equipment and does not want to do maintenance. 60-100 something HP tractors. Indeed he had one go into limp mode/dead where it sat because of a sensor. He had another one he traded out that left him because of a defective sensor or switch. He found out later that the fired dealer mechanic did not change out the warranty switch. Limp mode/dead mode is a problem just like with pickup trucks when it happens to you. Pretty reliable unless you are the one who has the defective sensor.

 

[rScotty]

Get a horse then.

I remember folks saying that about cars too - first electronic ignitions, then catalytic converters and evaporative emmissions, etc.

HOWEVER, I remember adjusting points twice a year, changing plugs annually, wires every other year. I remember exhaust fumes (never liked them personally).

Cars today are a lot like refrigerators - change oil and drive 100,000 miles and do nothing else besides maybe brakes and tires.

My DPF equipped kioti runs clean - very clean. Kioti redesigned their engines to meet tier 4 - the benefit is they are SOO clean running their testing shows them lasting 20,000 hours! Oil change is 400 hour intervals. Yes, 400. Ye Olden days it was what, 50 or maybe 100?

My tractor regened at 34, 72 and 141 hours so far. Just keep on working, takes 10 minutes. Filter said to be good for 3000 hours, costs $300.

And there are NO fumes - which this time of year is handy as it needs to warm up in the barn a bit - no stink AT ALL, no smell at all. None.

Yep, professor...what you say there strikes me as all worth repeating. There is a surprising amount of resistance to the regen/emissions equipment, but us tractor guys also have to keep in mind that more people want emissions control than don't - that's why it happened in the first place.

I don't like the complexity, cost, and loss of efficiency that emissions controls add to my tractor, but I do like the results. Frankly I never did like the smell of diesel exhaust myself, and I am still a little embarrassed when I think about how my machines are inflicting those fumes on other people. After all, it's their air too, and they have every right to ask me to clean up my contribution to the stink. With that in mind, I think anything that helps out is is worth giving a try.
rScotty

 

[prof fate]

I remember in college driving into the city (early 80s) and from a country area where the college was and the car exhaust fumes - terrible. I'd get a headache from it.

The old kubota (L174..early 70s) created a lot of diesel exhaust fumes. It is what it is. However, the girlfriend's horse barn is where I kept it and she wasn't keen on the fumes, especially in the winter with the barn more closed up and the longer warm up time needed.

The kioti has no odor - nor do our IC diesel buses. I got a new one last year (DEF, DPF, etc) and had a 2006 bluebird before that (no def/dpf) and there is a definite difference in smell/odor. New buses have NONE. However, we have had issues with them - mainly because many do slow speed stop/start and idling between runs, the dpf is taking a harder hit, regen is needed more, etc. The buses that take trips (for sports games, etc) don't have nearly the issues the 'local' buses do. Like my bus- 50 miles in a typical day, may hit 45mph once, between all the runs there are nearly 100 stops, plus of course traffic, stop signs, etc. Stop and go driving? Yep. And in the winter they'll idle to warm up for 30 minutes a day in the AM, and 15-20 in the PM - can't put kids on a cold bus, or really scrape ice off those windshileds too well either.

I was told on my tractor keep revs above 1800rpm and let it warm up/get it to op temp and there should be no issues. Kioti dealer said they've never had ANY dpf issues on any unit.

A neighbor has his dady's old kioti, dad got a new one. Never a repair in 20 years.
Then this - Kioti tractor workhorses | Farm Online

I'm a kioti fan. Nothing wrong with Kubota, but they cost more for less (small things, but seems like nickle and diming to leave off handles, etc, add ons are rather overpriced IMO), Deere is just as "bad".

High used prices are great - if you're selling. As a buyer..it sucks! LOL

 

[ultrarunner]

Get a horse then.

I remember folks saying that about cars too - first electronic ignitions, then catalytic converters and evaporative emmissions, etc.

HOWEVER, I remember adjusting points twice a year, changing plugs annually, wires every other year. I remember exhaust fumes (never liked them personally).

Cars today are a lot like refrigerators - change oil and drive 100,000 miles and do nothing else besides maybe brakes and tires.

My DPF equipped kioti runs clean - very clean. Kioti redesigned their engines to meet tier 4 - the benefit is they are SOO clean running their testing shows them lasting 20,000 hours! Oil change is 400 hour intervals. Yes, 400. Ye Olden days it was what, 50 or maybe 100?

My tractor regened at 34, 72 and 141 hours so far. Just keep on working, takes 10 minutes. Filter said to be good for 3000 hours, costs $300.

And there are NO fumes - which this time of year is handy as it needs to warm up in the barn a bit - no stink AT ALL, no smell at all. None.

Well there are the early adopters and the ones who choose not to be Guinee pigs...

I have presided on a fair number of California Lemon Law Cases with new models that did not have all the bugs worked out... implementing new technology always comes with a learning curve...

As for adjusting points... just about everything I own has points... it is very simple and I have never had points leave me Stranded in Death Valley but an Electronic Ignition did... it was dead... nothing could be done.

I always check my points before any Model A Tour... no tools required to check...

I can see your point about indoor operation... but most indoor operated equipment here is Propane or Electric... I'm curious to know if a Tier IV final meets indoor air quality to operate indoors?

I think a lot of what they want to do could be done with a BX23... many underestimate due to size.

So far the search for a L3800 has not turned up anything but hard to predict... patience has served me well in the past.

 

[mcfarmall]

My prediction is that prices will peak in the fall of 2020...right when I'm ready to buy mine.

 

[rScotty]

I think a lot of what they want to do could be done with a BX23... many underestimate due to size.

So far the search for a L3800 has not turned up anything but hard to predict... patience has served me well in the past.

It might help to look at it not as a BX23 vs an L3800, but as a BX23 versus a shovel and wheelbarrow.
rScotty

 

[jeff9366]

My DPF equipped kioti runs clean - very clean. Kioti redesigned their engines to meet tier 4 - the benefit is they are SOO clean running their testing shows them lasting 20,000 hours! Oil change is 400 hour intervals. Yes, 400. Ye Olden days it was what, 50 or maybe 100?

My tractor regened at 34, 72 and 141 hours so far. Just keep on working, takes 10 minutes. Filter said to be good for 3000 hours, costs $300.

And there are NO fumes - which this time of year is handy as it needs to warm up in the barn a bit - no stink AT ALL, no smell at all. None.

I am of this school too. I have owned Tier III tractors, now have a Tier IV tractor.

Regen has been a non-issue for me.

My three cylinder Kubota regenerates every 60 engine hours. Half the time its regenerates as I am operating, the other half I regenerate while parked in the driveway. Regeneration takes sixteen minutes.

60 hours X 60 minutes = 3,600 minutes. Regeneration = 16 minutes.

16 / 3,600 = .0044 = 4/10 of 1 percent of operation is regeneration time if regeneration takes place in driveway.

Cost of diesel during regeneration in driveway = $1.00

 

[Industrial Toys]

Reading what many say, I realize that they simply don't appreciate that their dollar is slowly becoming worthless, thanks to their Government.

 

[ultrarunner]

Maybe I am missing something...

I have several restored and working tractors from the 1940's and early 1950's... Ford, Deere and Farmall…

No qalms saying I expect these tractors will last forever... and still perform and capable as when new.

Same with my antique cars...

The kicker is I have seen a lot of high end mostly foreign cars that are so complicated emission wise they are often scrapped when emission problems crop up 10 to 15 years out... parts no longer available, manufacturer out of business or sold... and it only gets worse...

Then there is the VW, Audi debacle over Diesel... owners were most satisfied but the vehicles did not meet the standards required... the parts for the affected vehicles are removed from the shelf as they cars are not supposed to be driven... even have issues with some of my gas powered equipment... manufactures decide something is obsolete because it no longer meets current standards...

We have all seen things like this... often called forced retirement.

So... I wonder just how many 25 to 60 hp tier IV final diesel tractors will still be viable when they are 60+ years old like my 1953 Jubilee?

Remember... it might take a decade of more for most of us to put on the same hours that someone in business does in 6 months... and if bought new... any problems are the Manufacturers problem... once the warranty is over... it lands squarely on the owner...

Seen this with new cars... leasing is huge again here... I work with many that have not Owned a car in years... they simply don't want to own out of warranty and willing to pay a premium.

 

[jeff9366]

Keep in mind that off-road diesel engine manufacturers have the international Tier V emission standards in hand and are designing engines to meet the stricter Tier V standards. I have no idea if implementation dates have been set.

I would not expect the lower emission standards for <19 kW engines to survive Tier V implementation but have no "inside" information.

 

[Industrial Toys]

The little minion has less and less say in anything anymore. If we banded together, boycoted John Deere or Exon, we could bring the corporations to their knees, but we are so controlled and manipulated, that, that isn't even a remote possibility.

 

[ultrarunner]

This is especially true for business use... entire fleets had to be retired by law in California or be retrofitted for continued use...

So far the non business user still has greater options..

What I find interesting is Government users are mostly exempt from emission conformance... this if often a problem when the State is selling surplus vehicles and equipment with hardware removed... especially with retired police cruisers.