Price to install remote

MadReferee · Nov 17, 2004

( What are you using the remote hydraulics for? )

Hydraulic top link cylinder, hydraulic side/tilt link cylinder, snowblower chute rotator and/or chute deflector, angle control for back blade, raise and lower hydraulic rippers on box scraper, just to name a few more common uses.

DanR67 · Nov 17, 2004

( Very much on the expensive side for a non-factory single spool valve with hoses and fittings and QD's (not shown but I asume they are mounted on the back). No wonder he installed it for free /forums/images/graemlins/shocked.gif.

I don't see the return to tank hose. Is it hidden in the picture?
)

Well maybe *free* wasn't free - perhaps he tucked the $100 or so for labor into the price? Then $260 vs $300 for parts isn't too much of a difference? Regardless - if a Kubota factory model is $600- $700 installed - then I think this is a bargain.

Only gripe: the location of the lever makes exiting / entering from the right side very difficult (yes I know you are NOT supposed to b/c of possibility of accidentally stepping on HST). The factory lever location looks nicer / more convenient.

I'm planning on shortening the lever length (*stubby*) by several inches - and see if I can somehow attach a linkage so that I could activate with one hand in combination with 3PH lift control.

**********

RE: Tank Line

The two hoses shown at the bottom of the pic are pressure & tank - the pressure line connects to the hydraulic auxiliary block located below the HST Forward / Brake Pedals - the tank line connects somewhere more under the center (IIRC) - under the engine?

I'm not sure how this relates to "power beyond" - but if I have the 3PH lift lever moved to the "Full Up" position - I get no oil to the rear hydraulics. Once I recenter the 3PH lift lever - I regain rear hydraulics pressure.

*********

Current Uses:
- 3PH Tilt (top link)

Planned additional uses (building myself):
- FEL Grapple
- Log Splitter
- 3PH Boom / jib crane

As well as the extensive list of possible uses that MadReferee listed.

I've found it has really added to the versatility of my 3PH forks to have the hydraulic top link cylinder / extra hydraulic control.

Dan

MadReferee · Nov 17, 2004

( The two hoses shown at the bottom of the pic are pressure & tank - the pressure line connects to the hydraulic auxiliary block located below the HST Forward / Brake Pedals - the tank line connects somewhere more under the center (IIRC) - under the engine?

I'm not sure how this relates to "power beyond" - but if I have the 3PH lift lever moved to the "Full Up" position - I get no oil to the rear hydraulics. Once I recenter the 3PH lift lever - I regain rear hydraulics pressure.)

Hmmm. Looks like your dealer plumbed this wrong. The valve needs to have a power beyond port. This means 3 hoses, an inlet that comes from the loader's power beyond port, a power beyond outlet that continues the circuit, and the return to tank. All hydraulic valve pressure lines must be connected in series. The return to tank line is not a pressure line. Your 3pt will work just fine when the circuit is connected properly.

I asume you have a loader. Did he tee into the loader's hydraulic block? If so he obviously did not know what he was doing. If this is the case I would take it back and have it done right. If you should ever have problems with your hydraulics Kubota will not warranty it since you added aux hydraulics incorrectly.

Henro · Nov 17, 2004

I would listen carefully to MadRef's advice...

Not to repeat, but proper installations use valves that have three hoses. To use different terms...flow in, flow out and return to tank.

The flow out is called "power beyond."

If you only have two hoses, then what you have is not technically correct.

You need a set up which passes the hydraulic fluid freely when the control valve spool is centered.

Like MadRef said (or like I think he said) something does not smell right with your installation.

btolle · Nov 17, 2004

( Not to repeat, but proper installations use valves that have three hoses. To use different terms...flow in, flow out and return to tank.

The flow out is called "power beyond."

If you only have two hoses, then what you have is not technically correct.

You need a set up which passes the hydraulic fluid freely when the control valve spool is centered.)

Henro and MadRef,

Can you please help a "hydraulic knowledge challenged" tractor owner?

I don't think I understand what you are saying about 3 hoses. Are you saying that there should be 2 hoses that have pressure on them from the hydraulic pump and as long as the valve is in the "neutral" position the fluid would be continously circulating back into the reservoir by way of the return hose?

In the picture at the top of this thread his valve shows 4 hoses connected to it. 2 appear to go to the front of the tractor and 2 toward the back. Would one of the hoses going to the front of the tractor be the pressure line and the other the return line? If that is the case when he extends (or retracts) the cylinder then the valve would allow pressure to be applied to one hose that goes to the cylinder and at the same time open a port that allows the fluid from the other side to flow back to the reservoir through the second hose that goes from the valve to the front of the tractor?

I'm not even sure my questions make sense to me so if they don't make sense to you let me know.

Thanks,

Bill Tolle

PS: I've edited this post 4 (make that 5) times trying to get it to make sense so if it is stupid please overlook my ignorance. "Not only do I not know the answer, I don't even know the question".

Henro · Nov 17, 2004

Btolle,

Good question. I don't know the answer.

The normal way of inserting a control valve in a "open center" system like most CUTs have, is to use a control valve that has three hoses associated with it.

This kind of valve passes the hydraulic fluid straight through it when the contol valve sections are centered. This is true whether there is one control valve section or more than one.

Now when the control valve handle is moved off center, the hydraulic fluid is diverted to one side (or the other) of the associated working cylinder. The return fluid from the other side of the cylinder is sent back to the hydraulic tank via the "return to tank" hose. The "return to tank" hose is the third hose...

How a control valve with only two hoses functions I don't have a clue. One could guess that the fluid from the other side of the cylinder is put back into the loop, passing back to the tank via the existing hydraulic loop. This might work, but is not the right way to do it.

Perhaps MadRef or someone else can amplify this point. I am not an expert by any means, just have learned a bit in trying to understand what I need to do to put a T&T on my tractor. I do have an industrial background...but that is history since I retired.

In a nutshell though, the pressure side fluid has to be doing the work, and the return fluid from the cylinder has to find its way back to the tank somehow...since there is not a "return to tank" hose, it must be going back to the tank through the 3PH and whatever else (probably nothing) might be in the tractor's original hydraulic circuit loop.

Can the system work as it is now? Obviously the answer is yes.

Is the system done right as it is now? Probalby not...

btolle · Nov 17, 2004

I just looked at the FEL valve on my B7100. It has 3 hoses going to the valve. 2 of the hoses come from the block on the side of the tractor to provide pressure to each "side" of the valve. One side of the valve is for the lift and the other side of the valve is for the bucket tilt. The third hose is apparently the return hose since it appears to go back to the reservoir.

If there was only one valve then you would only need one hose for pressure and the other hose would be the return line so 3 hoses would not be necessary. It would appear to me that his 2 hose connection would work as installed since it is a single valve, not a "dual" valve like a loader has.

The mystery is why his tilt cylinder will not work unless the 3PH control valve is in "neutral".

I'm just trying to learn about this stuff, need all the help I can get.

Bill Tolle

Henro · Nov 17, 2004

The mystery is why his tilt cylinder will not work unless the 3PH control valve is in "neutral". 

This part is not a mystery at all...at least I don't think so anyway....

Remember, the 3PH is generally the last valve in the system. So, if a "two hose" valve is inserted before the hitch, the only way the fluid from that 2-hose valve could go directly back to the tank is if the 3PH valve was centered. If the 3PH valve was not centered, then the return to tank fluid that was coming back from the cylinder being operated by the 2-hose valve, would be diverted to the 3PH. So hydraulic pressure would be divided between the load on the cylinder attached to the 2-hose valve, and whatever load was hanging on the 3PH. It is possible the sum of these loads would exceed the capacity of the hydraulic pump to lift them, and the pressure relief valve would pop, and nothing would happen.

With a proper setup, the full hydraulic pressure is felt by the cylinder connected to the "3 hose valve." It operates independent of what is downstream. A cylinder connected to a 3-hose valve feels full hydraulic pressure independent of what the down stream (EG 3PH) valve position is.

This is the difference between a proper system and the system that the original poster has.

At least from what I can see. No guarantee what I see is reality though... /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

MadReferee · Nov 18, 2004

On an open center system, high pressure fluid flows continuously, a closed loop system just like a series circuit. For a valve, fluid will flow from the inlet thru the valve and to the outlet. When a valve's spool is actuated some amount (not all) of that high pressure fluid is directed into the spool's work port and out to the cylinder. The fluid that the cylinder pushes out goes to the other work port with no or minimal pressure. This no pressure fluid has to return to the sump/tank and cannot be dumped back into the high pressure line, so it will have its own outlet. Hence we have 3 hoses on the valve, one is a high pressure inlet, one is the high pressure outlet or power beyond, and the other is the outlet back to the tank.

The only exception to the above 3 hoses configutration is if your valve is the last in the series circuit then you do not need a high pressure outlet (PB) since the next item in the circuit is the tank. This is typically the 3pt on all CUTs today.

When you mistakenly tee into the high pressure line you are actually creating a new parallel circuit that will split the flow (remember the pump is constant). This reduced flow will cause slow or sometimes no operation of other valve spool's in the system, especially if the path to the tank is shorter.

The only line that may be tee'ed into is the return to tank line since it is a no pressure line.

btolle: 

On a 2 spool loader valve, the valve has 4 work port hoses that go to the lift and dump cylinders and 3 hoses that are for inlet, PB outlet, and return to tank. The amount of spools that a valve has will not change the 3 hose inlet/PB outlet/tank outlet configuration.

MadReferee · Nov 18, 2004

The proper way to connect your aux valve would be to:

1. disconnect the hose that goes from the loader's PB port to the hydraulic block at the hydraulic block.

2. connect the loader PB hose, using the appropriate nipple/fittings, to another hose that will be connected to your aux valve's inlet port.

3. run a hose from your aux valve's PB port to the hydraulic block and connect it to where the loader's PB hose was previously connected.

4. run a hose from your aux valve's outlet port and tee it into the loader's return to tank line at the transmission sump.

All valve's including the 3pt will now work correctly and there will be no issues with improper connections.