President Bush

   / President Bush #21  
I agree wholeheartedly, Terry. I am not a very religious person myself and do not like it getting too far into politics. However, I also see our Presidents faith as a general part of him being an honest and sincere person. He is, for a change, the real deal. Not slick, polished or full of BS. No, he won't always be right but I firmly believe he will always act in what he believes are our best interests. I really don't think we can ask for more that that from a president.

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   / President Bush #22  
I shudder to think of a world without religion. What would there be to keeping us from being no better than animals? If there were no religion and the belief in a higher power what would there be to hold people accountable? If there were no religion and no consequences for doing wrong what keep the world from being in complete anarchy? Even with laws and such a person can get away with anything until they get caught. Even with laws how long before the lawless take over and at what cost if you do not worry about there being another place after you die? Personally I shudder to think of a society without at least some belief in a higher power and a call to judgment other than our own man made judgment. I'll put my faith in God and a higher calling.

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   / President Bush #23  
I agree with an earlier post that observes that law enforcement officials are understaffed and too busy to interfere with the lives of law abiding citizens. They are, however, human and not necessarily above the average of all of us in their perceptions, interpretations and responses. Probably all involved in Waco and Ruby Ridge had the best of intentions, but bad information, good information incorrectly interpreted and the impulse to action which ultimately buried common sense. Even if we ascribe to our law enforcement people the best of motives, it is perhaps that they are so busy that they often step wrong, and the results can be disastrous for innocent people.
Recently, on a piece of property of which I am partial owner, there was a massive raid of a farm building that houses tractors, a lot of machine and woodworking tools, etc. A combined force of County Police, DEA and ATF, armed with automatic weapons tripped all over each other looking for a shipment of cocaine that they claim an anonymous informant told them about. They had been visually and electronically surveilling the place for several weeks. They had seen nighttime activity - my brothers and I and friends, most of whom have day jobs, work there often at night, woodworking, welding, fixing old farm machinery; they had heard mention that a Spanish translator might be needed - one has several Mexican employees on a landscape crew; they had heard mention of underground vaults [clearly for storage of drugs and money] - they found ten new vaults containing the valves for a mile of new pipe and six automatic horse waterers just installed; they observed several men with hair tied in pony tails; they checked and found what they presented to the court as a narcotics history on one of the people observed - a 1987 probation for a pipe with marijuana residue. They had the address of the property wrong, they never checked to see who owned it, and never questioned anyone in the area, such as the state trooper neighbor.
Based on this, they descended with probably thirty heavily armed people, whose most significant accomplishment that night was to handcuff and terrorize a mildly retarded 15 year old girl who was watching television in her nearby home. They tried to get a guy who happened to be there to "confess" by holding up a box from the refrigerator and claiming they had found cocaine - it was ice cream. They did find a marijuana joint and a legal handgun in a motor home that had been brought there to have some repairs done. Their owner was given a ticket, not an arrest. No cocaine was found - one clown is probably still tasting the borax from the welding cart that he actually stuck in his mouth to test.
The next morning, we read in the paper about nationwide simultaneous raids on drug importers in a lot of different states. Ours was part of a DEA/ATF publicity stunt. No one was badly hurt, although a couple of people were roughed up. Fortunately, none of the eager law enforcers shot each other, although a lot were running around in the dark looking for nonexistent bad guys. There will be no trials, since nothing significant was found. If any trials were needed, however, they would not have been secret, and Constitutional protections would have permitted those involved to point out that if the anonymous informant ever existed, he was in error.
Our place is a farm, now surrounded by subdivisions. Those of you in similar locations, particularly if you have a shop where you and friends gather to play with manly toys, will find yourselves the target of some suspicion among your more urbanized neighbors. Before 9/11 the suspicion was drugs - now presumably it will be terrorism, as well.
The point of all this is that those who enforce our laws, however well intentioned, can be badly wrong, and disastrously so. Some, unfortunately are venal, some are political. The founding fathers were far more concerned about protection from the government than protection by the government. They were right. Law enforcement at all levels and for all citizens and visitors needs oversight by the courts; enforcers always need to be concerned about the Constitution, and about their potential public accountability for their actions. We need no change in our laws to find ones which make terrorism illegal. What we are doing in Afghanistan already shows what can be accomplished without a change in the laws protecting our individual freedoms.
I agree with most of what the government has done so far as a result to 9/11. The government needs no more powers to continue that effort. Certainly, the batch that raided our barn need no more power to act without court authority or good sense.



Charlie Iliff
 
   / President Bush #24  
Well put, Cowboydoc. Again, I agree. My problem is with the politics of some many of the organized religions. I feel that many of them have lost sight of the point you made in your own statement.

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   / President Bush #25  
I couldn't agree more with the concept of organized religion Tony. I was raised Catholic in a Mormon town. Talk about two extremes of religion. Most religions believe they are better than the other and that their doctrine is right. I still fail to see the problem with just believing in God, reading the good Book, and living by the ten commandments. Unfortunately for too many religions it has to be done a certain way, at a certain time, etc. But it's still better than the alternative.

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   / President Bush #26  
Pardon the pun but "Amen" to that cowboydoc!

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   / President Bush #27  
<font color=blue>Freedom OF religion only really exists where freedom FROM religion is possible. </font color=blue>

Freedom FROM religion always leads to abolishing religion, restricting the rights of those who practice it and eventually abolishing those who practice religion. Richard Warmbrand clearly details this in his book "Tortured For Christ".

The Czech republic tried to free its country FROM religion by passing laws that kept the "religous" from holding office (easy to do in the communist country), then laws were passed restricting the free assembly of the "religous" and finally passed laws that forbid the practice of religion except in State approved churches. Warmbrand was tortured with electricty and beatings, made to stand inside a box lined with spikes while cold air was pumped in to cause him to shiver against the spikes all the while being asked to renounce his faith in Christ. Why? To guarantee that his country would be "free" FROM religion and its influences.

The constitution does not forbid the religous from being part of government instead it keeps the goverment out of the church.

MY two cents worth.

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   / President Bush #28  
PitBull,

Well said... except that I would add one small detail. The constitution separates both Government and Religion - Government from declaring a state religion and a Religion from running Government affairs. Let me call it a peaceful coexistence for lack of a better way.

Terry

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by TerryinMD on 11/26/01 01:18 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / President Bush #29  
<font color=blue>...and a Religion from running Government affairs</font color=blue>

You are correct, remember that the King of England was also the head of the Church of England. The last thing the founding fathers wanted was a church run government. This did not mean that if you held office you had to check your religion or religous views at the door. Which brings us full circle to scruffy's original post concerning the President and his faith.

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<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by PitbullMidwest on 11/26/01 01:28 PM (server time).</FONT></P>
 
   / President Bush #30  
I'll probably be sorry for this one, but.....the other animals seldom kill each other for religious differences. Human animals 0, other animals 1.

Chuck
 
   / President Bush #31  
Well said Cowboydoc.

It seems so many times that spirituality gets confused/mixed up/combined with religion. Many religions are close to peoples' ideas of a cult. That said...

If it were only as simple as what Cowboydoc stated: "I still fail to see the problem with just believing in God, reading the good Book, and living by the ten commandments."

I questioned my faith once, and this how I looked at it: you either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you don't, then you probably think you just die when you're dead and that's it. Then ask, what if this is wrong, there is a God, and the Spirit filled people were right? You would be screwed. However, if you believe in God and follow the plans laid out in the Bible, and this idea is right, you've got it made. If this is wrong, what have you lost...Pretty much nothing. So to this day, I'm a strong, devout Christian.

Freedom of Religion, what a HUGE priviledge.
 
   / President Bush #32  
Human animals seldom kill each other to eat them.
Human animals 1, other animals 1.

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   / President Bush #33  
Well now let's see.....there are, or have been, some human cannibals. Most, though certainly not all, of the other animals seem to avoid eating their own kind. Hard to score.

Chuck
 
   / President Bush #34  
Kevin,
<font color=blue>Not sure if a Canadian is allowed to participate in this little discussion</font color=blue>
The more perspectives that are involved, the better. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif
Al
 
   / President Bush #35  
Butzkeg,

"I questioned my faith once, and this how I looked at it: you either believe in God or you don't. If you don't you don't, then you probably think you just die when you're dead and that's it. Then ask, what if this is wrong, there is a God, and the Spirit filled people were right? You would be screwed. However, if you believe in God and follow the plans laid out in the Bible, and this idea is right, you've got it made. If this is wrong, what have you lost...Pretty much nothing. So to this day, I'm a strong, devout Christian."

My feelings exactly. Not to add much to that but you've also probably lived a pretty good life and can look back with pride and not fear death. The patients I've dealt with that have had terminal illnesses faired far better when they believed in God than those who didn't. They also surprise you and get well through their faith as well!

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   / President Bush #36  
Chuck,
I didn't mean it that we would kill over reiligious differences. What I meant is that in the wild animals will settle a dispute to the death with no regard for consequences. If we aren't held to a higher power what is to stop us from doing the same? If we weren't created from God and God gave us a conscience and humanity then what separates us from animals? Evolution? Just because a person can think doesn't mean they are moral. Where does the line become drawn once you throw religion out the door? If that's the case we're just back to the evolutionary monster that only the fittest survive and where do you draw the line or who even can say where to draw the line? If there's not a higher calling or order to the randomness of evolution what's the point? Why not just lie, steal, even kill your way to the top of the pile, because if there's no God, there's no conscience.

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   / President Bush #37  
<font color=blue>pejorative </font color=blue>

Now I don't feel so bad, Mike. /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

It's bad enough we weren't sure what the word meant, but even worse we couldn't spell it. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

<font color=blue>Out of desparation, tried http://www.dictionary.com </font color=blue>

I shouldn't say anything, but the irony is just too funny -- it's spelled, "desperation". /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

HarvSig.gif


p.s. To the rest of you readers -- my apologies for being so far off topic in this thread. /w3tcompact/icons/crazy.gif
 
   / President Bush #38  
Gotta agree with you cowboy doc. If you truly beleive there is no god, then logically speaking you should get out of this life the most you can irrespective of laws or consequences. After all if there's nothing after this life where's the advantage (evolutionarily speaking) of being "moral"? Conscience and self imposed morality is the biggest factor separating us from the animals. The downside to religion is when zealots pervert it to justify their means to THEIR ends. Don't know why people find it so hard to let other people have their own beliefs but history shows wars have been fought for centuries in the name of religion.
 
   / President Bush #39  
Cowboydoc,
Intra-species fights to the death are not the norm in nature; such behavior would not usually result from evolutionary development as it would not favor species survival.
This thread has really wandered from my objection to what I saw as an over-simplification and over-glorification of George Bush and his rise to the presidency. I'd really prefer not to get into a detailed discussion of religion, and apparently I started it all with my use of "deification".
 
   / President Bush
  • Thread Starter
#40  
Chuck, I really don't understand where you come up with the 'deification' issue at all, but you are certainly entitled to your viewpoint.
I believe fully in God, while I can honestly state that I cannot agree with various denominational doctrins, particularly those that seem to have no biblical basis.
I 'sat' on this article, solely because of its potential to 'irritate' a segment of society....the same segment who feel that it is TOTALLY their right to impose THEIR wishes upon everyone, irreguardless of others feelings, beliefs, or wishes.
Sorry, but my faith and beliefs put me into that catagory described by CBDoc <font color=red>The patients I've dealt with that have had terminal illnesses faired far better when they believed in God than those who didn't. They also surprise you and get well through their faith as well!</font color=red> I have been fighting Mantel Cell Lymphoma for the past 10 months, and currently am in remission. Is this pretty much standard for this type of cancer? Hardly. Only 10 to 15% survive out to the one year mark with it. Did I, or the Doctors do any heroical procedures to reach this point? Nothing out of the normal scope of treatment prescribed for cancer. In all aspects, I can but give credit where credit is due...Almighty God. If that makes you uncomfortable, I am sincerely sorry for you.
Irreguardless, I will (along with many, many others) pray for God to daily guide George W. in the decisions he makes for the welfare, safety, leadership, and protection of our country, as well as the many others who have joined the International endeavor to irradicate terrorism.
 

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