powering a log splitter. ideas?

[BHD]

on my log splitter, I made a power pack, engine pump and tank valve and two quick fittings, (I did use the log splitter pump with the High and low in it),
and set it off to the side of the I beam, (bolted on) and plug into the cylinder, and have used it for other hydraulic needs I many have,
used it for a wire roller, a winch, could use it to lift machinery and pull it with a non hydraulic power unit, like a pickup, I have some Ideas for a super shop press some time.

but it may give some versatility,

my son in law used a electric log splitter, and liked it very much, he like the lack of noise, and could run it at night with out up setting neighbors, or may be it was the built in beverage holder, I don't know for sure, but he was impressed with it.
It used a 2 HP motor,

 

[BHD]

here is a on line calculator, for figuring the horse power need to power a pump you put in the gallons a min, and the psi and it gives you the needed hp, about. and it has a number of other calculators for hydraulics and it use.

Hydraulic

HP is for electric motors, double this for gas engines.

 

[cycle_gator]

Payton:

Discussions about horsepower ratings notwithstanding, your idea to power the hydraulic pump off an automotive engine might work. A couple things to consider:
1.) You need to have a hand throttle to control the motor RPM, unless you want to put your brother in the driver's seat and tell him to keep his foot on the accelerator and maintain a constant RPM

2.) It will take a healthy pulley and belt set to transmit enough HP to the pump, at least a double V-belt if not a triple.

Both of these things are doable, just need to consider how you will accomplish them.

Your 2 HP electric motor is 18A at 110V, if you are running it on 220 V it is 9 amps, Ohms law is immutable. The current draw versus power output on a motor also depends on the type and quality of the windings. Open frame motors are not as efficient and normally the windings are not as dense as drip proof or enclosed motors, but they are cheaper

If you did decide to use an electric motor you would want to monitor the motor current draw. Unless the motor is internally protected, which many utility electirc motors are, an electirc motor will just burn up if it is overloaded, or it will pop the supply breaker if it can pull more amps than the breaker will allow before it burns up the windings. You would only need to put an ammeter on it once, just to know what it is pulling to turn the pump under maximum load. Running with the control valve in neutral, no load, it would be amazing if it draws more than an amp, or two.

An overloaded gas motor will usually just die, think about your rotary lawnmower in heavy grass.

Hope all of this is helpful. Like I said last night get started with the mecahnical design, choose a cylinder large enough to do what you want to do and a pump that will give you the performance you are looking for in terms of cycle time, then figure out what power source to use to drive the pump. If you can rig up your SUV motor, that may be your best, and potentially cheapest, option at least in terms of the build. It will cost marginally more to operate, however, than a smaller gas motor or electric motor. Nicely portable, however.

 

[payton]

I have been doing some cycle time calculations and don't know what length of logs I should plan on splitting. what do most people who sell fire wood split it to? I am thinking 18".

Payton

 

[Redneck in training]

bayerwald® maschinen Holzspalter BW 60/7 E
Here a link to manufacturer of electric splitters. My brother owns one of those and is quite happy with it. He splits only pine and spruce though.

 

[Redneck in training]

not to side track the discussion, but the two pole generator is 3600 RPM, 4 pole is 1800 RPM and a 6 pole is 1200 rpm

most small generators run at the 3600 RPM rate, usually you need to get into the stationary units to get to the 1800, and some small diesels, there are some 6 and multi poled units out there but usually on larger commercial type units, or for special low RPM applications,
the RPM on a generator is what gives it the cycles on AC, so it has to run at a constant, (unless inverter technology is used)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

there is different ways of rating horse power, and I do believe that is where some of the confusion comes in,

for an example there is the way tractors are rated, (Nebraska tractor tests) by draw bar horsepower,
(I have a old military 6x6 truck and it has a 90+ HP motor in it but draw bar power is less than 30 hp, from the manual)

look on any shop vacuum cleaner or electric air compressor nearly, with out fail they will run on a 15 amp circuit, but most likey there only pulling about 80% or the breaker would mostly trip, or about 12 amps,
but 15 amps at 115 volts, is 1725 watts, now divide that by, (750 watts, one hp with out wast) and the max with 100% efficiency is 2.3 HP,
which is most likely closer to 1.75 hp with the voltage drops and other frictions, but what is the sticker on the side of the machine, 4 hp 5 hp, it is not possible, (I am not saying in a locked rotor situation it may pull the equivalent of 4 to 5 hp of electricity, but it is not producing any where near 4 to 5 HP of usable power in that situation.

just like in automotive engines when there HP ratings are made it is with just the bare engine, no alternator, water pump, transmission, any other draw on it power and then it figured,
not a realistic rendering of the engine in the car,

ON small gas engines I figured it took about half of its power to keep it running, at the rated speed,

I know a HP is a HP, but there are ways of rating it to look like more than what is usable,

It all boils down to mass flow of air plus appropriate amount of fuel you can pass trough the combustion engine. Up to certain speed the mass flow is nearly linear with rpm but as speed increases so the velocity of air in the suction resulting in a significant pressure drop. Therefore the engine gets less air than the rpm times displacement would suggest. That is the physics behind the shape of the power and torque curve.
Electric motors produce highest torque at zero speed and only very little unloaded. Start up torque is limited only by magnetic field saturation.
So if you overload combustion engine to the point where the speed drops below maximum torque it will stall. Electric motors will just take more amps increase its torque and keep running (in theory) In real world it has to dissipate heat so, if unprotected, it will burn.
Considering the cyclic nature of wood splitting my guess is that 2 HP motor will work just fine.

 

[SpringHollow]

The 2 - 2.5 multiplying factor is useful for brief loads. Where you run into problems sizing that way is sustained loads. When running a sustained load, that multiplying factor is not accurate.

And with electric motors, you have to be careful how they rate them. A classic example - sellers of saws for homeowners often state a saw motor as generating up to 2 HP when it is a 1 HP motor but under load could briefly produce the equivalent of 2 HP. Amps tends to be one of the better indicators of what the true horsepower of the motor is, especially if you correct for the efficiency factor.

I am getting the parts together to build an electric log splitter. I got a used 5 HP 22V GE motor which draws 15 amps that i will use with my 16 gpm two stage pump. If it does not work, i will add a gas engine. Still need to buy the filter and valve.

Ken

 

[Diamondpilot]

18" logs are common in my area. This means you will need a 24" stroke cylinder. No way to get a 18" log in a 18" machine. They are never cut perfect.

Chris

 

[payton]

18" logs are common in my area. This means you will need a 24" stroke cylinder. No way to get a 18" log in a 18" machine. They are never cut perfect.

Chris

I was thinking a 18" stroke, but leaving ~2" between wedge and plate when the cylinder is fully extended. this way logs up to 20" will fit(assuming the log before it fully split)

Payton

 

[J_J]

Perhaps this web site will help with some of the electric HP calculations. .

Electric Motor Brake Horsepower Calculations

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsepower

For those that don't know, electric motors also have an efficiency loss, and sometimes it is equal to the hyd pump to hyd motor loss.

So to those that think you can sneak in an electric motor as a substitute for a hyd motor might use something, like about half or even more, the HP of the hyd pump.

You say I did it and it runs fine, it might, but what tonnage can you claim. While that electric motor is splitting, you need to measure the voltage and amps, and insert them in the formula to determine the actual HP developed. If the electric motor heats up, there is another loss of efficiency, and if operated for long periods, it will surely fail. The service factor will give you a hint.

 

[BHD]

my log splitter, has a 4" cylinder, (you want as heavy of a shaft in the cylinder as you can get), no fun bending up a new or even a old cylinder, (wish I would have gone with a 5" or a 4.5" at least),
I have a 24" stroke, I have about 2" from the end of stroke to the wedge,
my wedge is on the end of the I beam, that way it just keeps pushing the wood out and away from the splitter, (it more or less does it own house keeping),
you do not have to retract the cylinder all the way, if you do not want to, on shorter logs, or stack two to split at once,

I ended up adding some supports or a table like situation on each side of the I beam, I made it twice as wide on the opposite side of the valve, that way I have a place to set the split log for respliting, and it lets the split log fall open and then off the end of the machine,

at first I had it as a three point and used the tractor as the power unit, and it was fine when diesel was under $1, but when I started to figure what it was costing me a few years ago how much it was taking in just fuel at nearly 5 gallons an hr, the price of the motor and pump did not look so bad, (I actually payed for the motor and pump in fuel savings in less than one year ,my SIL used wood heat as well and he sold some also), and when you look at your SUV, it will burn most likely 4 gallons an hr, where the small engine, will usualy burn about gallon, or less,

yes they make hydraulic pumps that have a electric clutch like an air conditioner pump but if you look in to one of them your not that much savings in comparisons to the (Honda copy engine and a two pressure log splitter pump), Hydraulic Clutch Pump | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment

you have two basic costs your building cost and your operating cost, for the most part the operating cost will be fuel, but say you run your splitter for 40 hrs a year in your fire wood business, off the SUV, 40 hrs at any RPM would be some what like driving it , 2000 miles, (if the RPM were close to traveling 50 mph), now even at $3 a gallon if you get 20 MPG that would $300 in fuel operation costs and were on a car engine,
and you will have to have the SUV and the splitter next to each other to work it, plus the modifications to the truck, now if you use a Honda copy motor some of them are reasonably low cost, here is a 6 hp from Northern, Powerhorse 208cc OHV MaXX Series Horizontal Engine | Powerhorse | Northern Tool + Equipment for $150,

the other Idea that across my mind is if you can find a old lawn tractor and pull the motor off the tractor, and use it there is nothing that says you need to use a horizontal shaft motor to power the pump, for the most part even the small law tractors are 9, 10 hp, and many times you can get them for next to nothing, or even given to you,

If it was me I would either vote for a electric using a 2 hp motor with a matching pump, or step up to the heavier motor and go for some speed, I have a 9 hp and matching pump and with the two speed pump there is very little wait time, and with the detent log splitter handle one can put the handle in the return position and it will retract and pop to neutral when it hits the end, of stroke,

IN my building experience, I think one is better off building it to what you want the first time, even if you have to wait or it cost more than one wants it to, than to under build it or not built it big enough or with enough power or cylinder, it will end up costing much more in the long run,

 

[payton]

my log splitter, has a 4" cylinder, (you want as heavy of a shaft in the cylinder as you can get), no fun bending up a new or even a old cylinder, (wish I would have gone with a 5" or a 4.5" at least),
I have a 24" stroke, I have about 2" from the end of stroke to the wedge,
my wedge is on the end of the I beam, that way it just keeps pushing the wood out and away from the splitter, (it more or less does it own house keeping),
you do not have to retract the cylinder all the way, if you do not want to, on shorter logs, or stack two to split at once,

I ended up adding some supports or a table like situation on each side of the I beam, I made it twice as wide on the opposite side of the valve, that way I have a place to set the split log for respliting, and it lets the split log fall open and then off the end of the machine,

at first I had it as a three point and used the tractor as the power unit, and it was fine when diesel was under $1, but when I started to figure what it was costing me a few years ago how much it was taking in just fuel at nearly 5 gallons an hr, the price of the motor and pump did not look so bad, (I actually payed for the motor and pump in fuel savings in less than one year ,my SIL used wood heat as well and he sold some also), and when you look at your SUV, it will burn most likely 4 gallons an hr, where the small engine, will usualy burn about gallon, or less,

yes they make hydraulic pumps that have a electric clutch like an air conditioner pump but if you look in to one of them your not that much savings in comparisons to the (Honda copy engine and a two pressure log splitter pump), Hydraulic Clutch Pump | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment

you have two basic costs your building cost and your operating cost, for the most part the operating cost will be fuel, but say you run your splitter for 40 hrs a year in your fire wood business, off the SUV, 40 hrs at any RPM would be some what like driving it , 2000 miles, (if the RPM were close to traveling 50 mph), now even at $3 a gallon if you get 20 MPG that would $300 in fuel operation costs and were on a car engine,
and you will have to have the SUV and the splitter next to each other to work it, plus the modifications to the truck, now if you use a Honda copy motor some of them are reasonably low cost, here is a 6 hp from Northern, Powerhorse 208cc OHV MaXX Series Horizontal Engine | Powerhorse | Northern Tool + Equipment for $150,

the other Idea that across my mind is if you can find a old lawn tractor and pull the motor off the tractor, and use it there is nothing that says you need to use a horizontal shaft motor to power the pump, for the most part even the small law tractors are 9, 10 hp, and many times you can get them for next to nothing, or even given to you,

If it was me I would either vote for a electric using a 2 hp motor with a matching pump, or step up to the heavier motor and go for some speed, I have a 9 hp and matching pump and with the two speed pump there is very little wait time, and with the detent log splitter handle one can put the handle in the return position and it will retract and pop to neutral when it hits the end, of stroke,

IN my building experience, I think one is better off building it to what you want the first time, even if you have to wait or it cost more than one wants it to, than to under build it or not built it big enough or with enough power or cylinder, it will end up costing much more in the long run,

Im not exactly sure what i want yet, so i think i am going to build a small one with the 2HP motor and a small 2 stage pump. then decide on what cycle time two people can barely keep fed and build one using this ( Hydraulic Clutch Pump | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment ) or similar one to run a 5" cylinder and 4 or more way wedge. i don't think that there is any way that a 10HP motor could run a pump like this at 20gpm/2500psi.

 

[SpringHollow]

The advice of the post above is good advice - It makes no sense to use a 150 HP motor in place of the 10 - 15 hp motor you need. I have a 65 HP tractor and will not even use it to run my log splitter because it is an all hydraulic tractor so the rpms will be higher than a normal geared tractor.

i have a Tecumseh 10 HP vertical motor off of a small garden tractor and that is my backup if the 5 HP electric does not work well. I have a 24" 24 ton gas splitter (5 HP i believe) that i can take down into the woods. But i really want a 28" or so long one that is electric so i can split at night or in the morning without bothering neighbors down the road.

And the pump you are looking at costs more than buying the two stage pump and a cheap new or decent used gas motor.

Ken

 

[payton]

i might have put the wrong link in this is the one i meant to use High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump — 2.32Cu In. | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment
for those of you who use a 4 way wedge and a 2 stage pump, how many inches of the stroke is it in hi pressure mode?
How much maintenance is a 15HP engine going to be, and where should i look to buy a used one. i will have to ask some friends that live on farms if they have anything laying around they would sell.

Payton

 

[BHD]

it is in low pressure until it hits some thing that cause it to load and then the smaller pump is the only one pumping, and then gives you the pressure to split, with,

example: if there is nothing on the splitter the low pressure high volume pump is the one pumping, and the cylinder cycles fairly fast, but if you put in a log or load the system, then it kicks down to the high pressure low volume pumps side, and continues to work.

if you have a 10" log then it will travel up to the log in fast and then slow, if no log in it will travel at fast all the way and return in fast,

if you put in a log say 24" long then it will hit the log and then kick in the slow mode.

but will return in fast, or low pressure mode, unless some thing is jamming it,

hope I made sense.

If it was me I would use the log splitter pump with the hi and low in it, and you will do fine if you match one up with a 10 hp or so gas motor, (there are a number of different pumps) the larger the cylinder most likely the more cubic inches in the pump which means more HP in the driving motor.
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009120523083523&catname=hydraulic&keyword=HP2S
I have a 9 hp honda motor with a and am either using a 13 or 16 gallon per min, pump, I do not rember, (I am guessing the 13 gpm as the motor does not power down much on a hard split or a stall),
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120523083523&item=9-7503-13&catname=hydraulic
https://www.surpluscenter.com/item.asp?UID=2009120523083523&item=9-7503-16&catname=hydraulic
and a 4" cyclinder, (the only reason I some times whish I had a 5" is o 24" elm stumps and some crotches), I can usaly work through it in some way tho. With what I have.
I have works very well 98% of the time.

the two pressure log splitter pump it gives one the best of both worlds high speed with high power, it is like down shifting to first in a truck when you hit a hill and have a load on,
with relative low HP requirements,

I would probably suggest the single splitter to Begin with and then add the 4 way as a slip on unit, (it may not work as desired).

and there is nothing wrong with a slower speed when the wood is actually being split, (If mine was the high speed all the time I think it would be very easy to get hurt, with a log jumping out or shattering or some other unseen happening, IMO).

if you chose to go with a separate motor you most likely do not need a clutch the clutch is adding nearly Half to the cost of that unit, and if you can direct drive it, with a flex spider coupler,
(there are many diffrnet types to work with many diffnret shaft sizes and pump shafts)
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort....=PSF3&catname=powerTrans&UID=2009120523083523
the adapter encloses all moving parts and is the way to do it, if your going to do it with a separate motor.
(there are many diffrnet types for diffnret pumps and motors),
https://www.surpluscenter.com/sort.asp?UID=2009120523083523&catname=hydraulic&keyword=HOPM

your best bet IMO is to copy a premade unit, or some ones here on the board that they like and how to improve it if any.

there is not a need to reinvent the wheel on a log splitter,

 

[payton]

what i was trying to figure out was if after the log mostly split, did the pump go back to high speed to push the log through. sounds like it wont though. when you say "separate motor" you mean a motor dedicated to driving the pump and nothing else right?

Payton

 

[Redneck in training]

i might have put the wrong link in this is the one i meant to use High Pressure Hydraulic Clutch Pump 2.32Cu In. | Pumps | Northern Tool + Equipment
for those of you who use a 4 way wedge and a 2 stage pump, how many inches of the stroke is it in hi pressure mode?
How much maintenance is a 15HP engine going to be, and where should i look to buy a used one. i will have to ask some friends that live on farms if they have anything laying around they would sell.

Payton

Go to junkyard and get Honda 500CX engine. Those engines are bulletproof, quiet and about 30HP at 6000 rpm (don't know exact numbers) have flat torque curve so they can run nicely at any speed above 3000 rpm. I basically gave my old motorbike away when I sold my house few years back and now I wish I kept it. It was about 30 years old had 30000 miles on it and there was no single drop of oil on the garage floor.

 

[jenkinsph]

what i was trying to figure out was if after the log mostly split, did the pump go back to high speed to push the log through. sounds like it wont though. when you say "separate motor" you mean a motor dedicated to driving the pump and nothing else right?

Payton

If the log splits and the load on the cylinder is reduced significantly then the unit will switch back to high flow.

Separate motor as in "self contained".


I would match the engine and its rpm design to the pump specs with direct drive, cheaper and easier.

 

[BHD]

what i was trying to figure out was if after the log mostly split, did the pump go back to high speed to push the log through. sounds like it wont though. when you say "separate motor" you mean a motor dedicated to driving the pump and nothing else right?

Payton

an engine that is for the log splitter, not one on a SUV or other machine, but a motor that is dedicated to the splitter or it's power pack,

on my splitter,since I split elm and it is inter twined it will take pressure to push it all the way, if your splitting some thing like pine or woods that when it hits the splitter knife the wood jumps apart, it may kick back in to high, if all it is doing is moving the split pieces, but if it is still tearing it apart most likely it will keep in the slow mode and on mine that is not that slow,

YOU know if there is a rental in your area, I might suggest you rent one at first and see how they work and what you like and go from there, or see if you can go some place and "borrow" the use of one for a load of wood.
you would have a much better idea on what your looking at and what one will do, and what you will want in yours.

IN my opinion who ever is loading the unit should be the only one running the valve, mine will cut a 3" branch into if layed across the splitter knife, your hand is not stronger than 3" diameter limb, and fingers between the pusher and a log do not fair well either,

The key is not how fast one can split it but to be able to do it safely with reasonable speed, because if all you want is speed you could make one of these widow makers,
YouTube - Clarence's Wood Splitter
or
YouTube - WORLDS FASTEST LOGSPLITTER

It is not worth the lost of hand or limb to make a buck, make it safe and use it safely, just because some one is dumb enough to make and use it does not make smart or wise.

You want to be in complete control of the unit, I can guarantee you that even one your controlling, more than enough things can go wrong and the potential to get hurt is there, some thing that some one else is controlling or has no ability to stop it in an instant, (even if it is fast) is not worth it.

when your business picks up and your need the speed you then look into a fire wood processor, YouTube - firewood processors some of the machines here are really fantastic

 

[payton]

an engine that is for the log splitter, not one on a SUV or other machine, but a motor that is dedicated to the splitter or it's power pack,

on my splitter,since I split elm and it is inter twined it will take pressure to push it all the way, if your splitting some thing like pine or woods that when it hits the splitter knife the wood jumps apart, it may kick back in to high, if all it is doing is moving the split pieces, but if it is still tearing it apart most likely it will keep in the slow mode and on mine that is not that slow,

YOU know if there is a rental in your area, I might suggest you rent one at first and see how they work and what you like and go from there, or see if you can go some place and "borrow" the use of one for a load of wood.
you would have a much better idea on what your looking at and what one will do, and what you will want in yours.

IN my opinion who ever is loading the unit should be the only one running the valve, mine will cut a 3" branch into if layed across the splitter knife, your hand is not stronger than 3" diameter limb, and fingers between the pusher and a log do not fair well either,

The key is not how fast one can split it but to be able to do it safely with reasonable speed, because if all you want is speed you could make one of these widow makers,
YouTube - Clarence's Wood Splitter
or
YouTube - WORLDS FASTEST LOGSPLITTER

It is not worth the lost of hand or limb to make a buck, make it safe and use it safely, just because some one is dumb enough to make and use it does not make smart or wise.

You want to be in complete control of the unit, I can guarantee you that even one your controlling, more than enough things can go wrong and the potential to get hurt is there, some thing that some one else is controlling or has no ability to stop it in an instant, (even if it is fast) is not worth it.

when your business picks up and your need the speed you then look into a fire wood processor, YouTube - firewood processors some of the machines here are really fantastic

I understand the safety issue and don't plan to have anyone touching the wood when it is being split. what i ultimately want is to have a table on all sides of the splitter so one person slides the log in front of wedge and runs the controls. the other takes care of the split wood, slides pieces to be resplit back towards loader, and puts rounds on table.

I don't expect the 2hp electric to keep up with this, but i don't think the cost to build a small one first will be to bad, and im sure i can find a good use for the hydraulics if i end up never using it after i get the big one built.

Payton