Post COVID CUT tractoring “truths”

[finn1]

Well I have a little 1705 Massey on a 8 acre wooded area. I have one friend with a 40hp tractor and another with a 35hp tractor. Each have smaller acreage and no woods to maintain. I have helped both. I have moved more dirt than either one at any time i have helped. They each were all talked into having a tractor that size when they didnt need to. The bigger the tractor doesn't translate into better operating. The inadequacies will always be there and for these gents. They will remain below average operators for sometime. This is where i think the bigger tractor theory really gets in the way. I think the more appropriate way to steer newbies is to go ahead and get the extra hydraulics and those types of things as that is cheaper at the time of purchase.

Nobody has convinced my why a person who owns a 3 acre lot needs a 40HP tractor. Its bizarre to me. Even what you are saying just seems strange. What regret would a hobby farmer or a guy with 10 acres have? That it took another hour to do the task he's doing? Had he had a 35HP tractor it would have taken 15 minutes less to till the garden. I respectively disagree and think money is better spent on implements and a third valve

Different priorities for different people. We get 300” of snow most years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Blowing wet spring snow takes a lot of power, especially after a 24” snowfall. Even 40 hp is marginal sometimes if you don’t have all day to spend doing the cleanup.

Toting a loader around, or moving a few logs or buckets of firewood around…not so much.

 

[edgarrian]

Different priorities for different people. We get 300” of snow most years. Sometimes more, sometimes less. Blowing wet spring snow takes a lot of power, especially after a 24” snowfall. Even 40 hp is marginal sometimes if you don’t have all day to spend doing the cleanup.

Toting a loader around, or moving a few logs or buckets of firewood around…not so much.

That would make sense for snow removal purposes given the area. You are right that it takes HP to move snow as i have blow my dads driveway out and it sometimes its all it can handle. I would say a majority of the guys that are told to get bigger tractor just dont have that as a critical task. I mean even I get anywhere from 1-2ft of snow once in awhile. Im not buying a bigger tractor b/c it happens once a year. I clear it with my current setup and move along. We had 18" in one fall a few years ago and I cleared mine and my neighbors. Took maybe 3-4 hours. I have about a 400' driveway and it circles around. So its a good size driveway. My point is small can get it done as well. Will it take a bit longer. Sure. Ive installed driveways with my machine. building pads and so on. So its not just moving a couple logs around and toting my loader. Im more seasoned than that. Which is why i said more seasoned equipment operators dont need a big machine. but it seems like people here will suggest bigger to someone that is brand new. Its really unnecessary

 

[edgarrian]

so you bought the size of tractor that you needed, check i think that is what i said. my point being going a little larger than what you need is better than a little smaller than what you need, for 1 the price delta between the much too small SCUTs and the CUTs is small, ie in my experience a 2900 lb CUT is 23k and a 3700 lb CUT is 25k so 26% more weight, traction, capabilities for 9% more money. i just went thru that pricing exercise last year with the LS MT347e vs the MT240E, and i'm not talking about the hp because that was not an issues in my case. so i'm not saying to just get a bigger tractor for the sake of a bigger tractor, I'm saying to not buy to small of a tractor because the price delta is not significant (in this case 9%). in my case i went with a 5400 lb CUT and it cost 29k so 86% more capabilities for 26% more money vs the MT2. if you are not sure on exactly how much tractor you need i would error on the larger side IMO.

to your point of what would i regret, well try removing a 8" tree from your property without leaving a stump. the extra weight makes it an easy job without overstressing the tractor, could i have done it with a smaller tractor? yes i could but after 10 of them you are very happy that you have the extra capabilities and the tractor is happy that you are not over working it.

BTW we have differing opinions both can be valid depending on the situation, no disrespect intended.

If you have the proper implements you can get the 8" stump removed without much effort. I rent a excavator about once every few years. Basically I wait until I have a few tasks So as an example sometime in the near future i plan on renting an excavator. As we built a greenhouse i need to install some downspout tile. So all the stumps in my circle driveway need to be removed. So ill make them with orange paint and take them out along with a few more trees so i can get that landscaping project underway. Then ill use the excavator to help pick up layed down trees so can cut them up a little easier. So I guess if you consider that than yes i could use a bigger tractor but sometimes tractors are not the most efficient at certain jobs. So for me spending 350 once every three years is worth it.

I think with what you are saying and moving up just a bit more can make sense. What i see a lot of on this forum is people telling guys to get a 40hp for these small lots and its just not that necessary.

No worries on the disrespect as i dont think either one of us has intent

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

“Xxx hasn’t been around as long as JD or Kubota.” So what. For CUTs those names aren’t the same as they were nor the same as their real Ag machines. The one I chose - kioti - has been in the US for more than 30 years; I’ll likely have left my machine to my survivors in 30 years. And EVERY brand has recalls, detractors, supporters, and (especially since 2021) parts issues.

I'm just seeing this thread now. What you're missing here is Risk. 2nd hand brands carry more risk. The reason you got a discount on your Kioti is due to the inherent risk it carries as a smaller, off brand of tractor.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Now, there is a reason I didn't replace my Deere with another Deere, and wallet aside it came down to their corporate policies, and dealer consolidation. Now it was admittedly made a little easier because the 3025E is terrible. The one machine Deere had in the category I want lacks so much, and doesn't even come close to the ergonomics of the R models; no suspension seat, impeded leg room, and a loader that can't be dropped. The machine exists to cater to those who won't buy another color, but can't be upsold to an R model. That doesn't make it good, it makes it the bare minimum.

That machine is about to lose half it's value over night when the Kubota 40XX model comes out this spring. Another year has passed and Deere has not updated their compact tractors. The E and R series compacts have been in production for 12-14 years with virtually no changes. That tells you something about Deere's interest in this market.

 

[tacticalturnip]

That machine is about to lose half it's value over night when the Kubota 40XX model comes out this spring. Another year has passed and Deere has not updated their compact tractors. The E and R series compacts have been in production for 12-14 years with virtually no changes. That tells you something about Deere's interest in this market.

Kubota 40XX? I'm not familiar with what machines you're speaking of. I know the rest of the L02 line is coming out, and two LX machines as well; what did I miss?

 

[Beeenvenue]

I'm just seeing this thread now. What you're missing here is Risk. 2nd hand brands carry more risk. The reason you got a discount on your Kioti is due to the inherent risk it carries as a smaller, off brand of tractor.

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

I can’t knock kubota or JD (well I can but that another issue!). But for most new people with small acreage and only general purpose uses, buying to avoid some “risk” is overpaying for what they need

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Kubota 40XX? I'm not familiar with what machines you're speaking of. I know the rest of the L02 line is coming out, and two LX machines as well; what did I miss?

The LX is going up in horsepower this year. The two models offered will be the LX3520 and the LX4020. The updated models are going to destroy JD's E series and most likely take a lot of sales away from the R series as well.

 

[Cahaba Valley Farm]

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I have written about this in some other threads. Risk is always the hidden factor when making purchases. You never see it until it's usually too late. Investors train for years to spot it and then learn how to mitigate it.

The biggest risk Kioti carries is forced arbitration clauses in their warranties which essentially takes away your consumer rights. The second is the size and quality of the dealer network, the third is the inability to contact anyone at corporate and the fourth is reports of issues that users/owners have had that Kioti and their dealers were not able to properly diagnose and repair.

To add to #2, Kioti dealers come and go. They may be here today but gone tomorrow and that adds risk for any purchaser. Consumers like investors want stability. They don't want to have to worry if their only dealer in the area is going to close up and go out out business or drop the brand all together.

Another thing is Credit Rating. Kubota and John Deere are rated by the three major credit rating agencies, Daedong and the others are not. If this was real estate and I was leasing property to a Kioti dealer, no bank would offer a non recourse loan on the property because they are not credited. The bank would deny it stating they carry too much risk.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

I completely agree with your position about this. I did the same thing. And to be completely fair, Daedong builds a better tractor in some ways then JD or Kubota does. I think Kioti has the best hydraulics in the business. You will not find a better driving and smoother transmission then Kioti in the 40hp and below class. They offer a lot of value and can compete/go toe to toe on a lot of categories with the Big Two but the problem with Daedong is how they want to do business. They lose out in soft value categories which believe it or not, is very important to a lot of buyers.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

Risk is ALWAYS a present factor and will never be "outdated criteria". On the contrary, I am trying to help newbies listen to the voice of reason and not throw caution to the wind like many such as yourself are telling them to do.

 

[DK35vince]

Not sure exactly what risk I am accepting for discount.

Quality? Proven over 30+ years
Features? Available equal to big K or JD
Value? Superior
Resale? As I mentioned I don’t care but regardless as a PERCENTAGE OF ORIGINAL seems to be basically the same
Distributor network? Agreed. Much smaller. But big enough for me to have 3 dealers within 90 minutes (and probably for many others on this forum)
Spares? Pre COVID not many issues. During COVID I saw problems with everyone. Post COVID kioti looked a bit slower to catch up but appears to have down so now.

I’m not one to say “hey look at me I’m on my mfr’s bandwagon”. I looked and read and visited dealers for 6 months before I bought. I’m trying to let others know that if you are in a similar situation to me that you ought to look at considerations beyond what “old timers” and long term tractor users quote.

It’s a new world out there with new users who need a new look at the whole CUT selection process. Sorry but in MY opinion your post is exactly what I am trying help other newbies realize is based on outdated criteria.

I can’t knock kubota or JD (well I can but that another issue!). But for most new people with small acreage and only general purpose uses, buying to avoid some “risk” is overpaying for what they need

I know 2+ decades ago when I was buying my DK 35, I had multiple members saying.
Kioti doesn't hold up
Kioti probably won't be around long
Can't get parts, bla, bla ,bla.
I still own that machine 22 years later and NONE of it was true.
Tractor has been great, still works as nice and smooth as it did new, never been back to a dealer and parts are easy to get.
As far as dealers, I have 5 within 70 miles.