Portable Generator

dicker · Dec 30, 2004

I guess you can call that safe and cheap. However, I think a couple hundred dollars is a lot safer and cheaper in the long run. Will your insurance company cover you if something were to happen to your house under these circumstances.
Richard

jjk0091 · Dec 30, 2004

My shingles and sofets were gone, my ceilings were falling in, the carpets were pulled out, the last thing I was worried about was will my insurance company care. Thousands of people in my area did exactly what I did and I never heard of any problems. Now running the generator in the garage had dire circumstances. If you have time to plan then do it right. Otherwise you do what has to be done to survive.

Inspector507 · Dec 30, 2004

Tom,
Was still wading through the posts, knowing I needed to answer/post to one I had read.
MOST transfer switches, yes even UL Listed ones, do not disconnect the neutral conductor. There is no danger to the utility workers if the neutral is not disconnected. Unless of course you've connected something wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The more expensive set-ups for hospitals and high rises maybe, but not your residential variety transfer switch. The neutral in mine stays connected.

nobull1 · Dec 30, 2004

( Tom,
Was still wading through the posts, knowing I needed to answer/post to one I had read.
MOST transfer switches, yes even UL Listed ones, do not disconnect the neutral conductor. There is no danger to the utility workers if the neutral is not disconnected. Unless of course you've connected something wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The more expensive set-ups for hospitals and high rises maybe, but not your residential variety transfer switch. The neutral in mine stays connected. )
Well I'm going to stick my nose into something that I have limited knowledge of, but here goes. I have just purchased a 6500 watt Honda generator for our house and barn. Upon visual and checking specs I find that it has a GFI that requires and has a bonded neutral. My understanding is when you have a bonded neutral and have it attached to a permanent/house setup you have to have a 3 pole transfer switch which will break the neutral. The reason for this is you can have a double loop and the ground could possibly be a carrier of voltage instead of the neutral?So off I go to Home Depot to see what they have. After confusing all but one person we found yes you can buy and they do carry in stock a 3 pole generator/transfer switch. It appears it is somewhat common in this area. The other way to get around this is to remove the bonded neutral and make it float at the generator. The problem is now you have a potential lack of ground problem when used as a stand alone generator as well as non-compliance with the safety people. The power corp in our area is very adament on how you will hook it up. They even go as far as to post pic's of how you will wire it if your generator is neutral bonded or not. The installation is a inspectable permit job in our area so it has to be right. I also believe you have to mark on your transfer box which type of generator can be used on the setup. The main reason for what I am saying is to let people know how dangerous this can be. Most people have little understanding of what could happen by just one mistake and a unknowing one at that. I have been told that if you backfeed to a transformer on a pole you can step up the voltage the same as it steps down. The amount of voltage depends on the area but 8000 volts is pretty common before the transformer. If you fry your local linesman you will not be popular for sure. Don't even want to think what your insurance company is going to say in a case like that. Times like this it would be nice to have polecat back as I'm sure he'd have something to say /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Inspector507 · Dec 30, 2004

Maybe because it's supplied through the GFI outlet on the genset.

nobull1 · Dec 30, 2004

( Maybe because it's supplied through the GFI outlet on the genset. )
I'm sure that's just what it is. Honda even has a bulletin out on how to unground the neutral for such uses. The problem is if you use a 2 pole transfer switch and unbond the neutral at the generator than it is non-compliant as a stand alone at a job site. This is way beyond the average Joe[no disrespect to anyone] and is a reason to get a electrician to do a proper hookup and know your safe. I now know way more than I wanted to know and realize now, I know very little /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. I wonder how many people know if their generator is neutral/bonded and if they need a 2 or 3 pole transfer switch to meet code?

_RaT_ · Dec 30, 2004

Speculation on my part but I think if Canada is requiring a neutral be disconnected on a generator disconnect, they are using considerably different transformer setups then we are in the US. In California, they use "butt wraps" on the pole. Essentially it is where the neutral and ground bond. First and foremost for a utility worker to receive a tingle off a neutral, something went very wrong with everything. Why everything? Because your neutral in urban areas is also tied to many, even hundreds of other households. Even getting a voltage past a couple of homes on the two hots would be a trick unless you have a very large generator and the grid is not drawing beyond what you produce. Having a disconnect is a very good idea not only to protect utility workers, not only because it is code, but because without it, your generator would take a dump faster then you can bat an eye. Out here, utility workers never assume the line is dead. All the wires are bonded and grounded with jumpers. If your generator is pumping out more then those jumpers can ground, you've got a power plant, not just a simple generator. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

_RaT_ · Dec 30, 2004

Steve, while quite pricey, the new EM5000is and EM7000is watt inverter generators from Honda are incredible. They only run as fast as required for the load. That means at idle and a small load, you can run the EM5000is generator well over 15 hours on less then 4.5 gallons and the best part, only 62 db. If noise and superb efficiency are important, these are hard to beat. As the load increases so does the engine RPM. The sine wave is actually better then the wave from your utility company. The inverter generators are specifically designed to run all sensitive electronic equipment. The drawback is the price. EM7000is

ducati996 · Dec 30, 2004

I have to question whats so great about the EM5000is that requires a $3800 MSRP price? as mentioned earlier in this thread a $700 TRoy built generates more power than this Honda without even hitting a surge rating. Clean power?
typical home electronics need nothing more than a battery UPS back up to help regulate clean power. Hopefully these are already in place with these electronics before any power outage! To me I feel perfectly ok saving $3000 on a generator that runs on gas, and generates less wattage.
I've run my sensitive electronics on generated power thru UPS backups, with zero issues.....**** even if my generator konks out, I can buy another and still save a bundle....
I'm missing something here, I just cant put my finger on it... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ducati

bugstruck · Dec 30, 2004

Okay you guys have me /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. I understood before I did my setup that the neutral and ground are bonded in my electrical panel. The layman in me thought that any limited voltage present at the neutral would be sunk at the ground for the house panel. I now understand from what I read here that is not so. When I went to a liscensed Master Electrician prior to doing this he said it's not following the letter of the code but it also was not something that would cause a problem for the power company people. He advised both me and a friend with the same setup that our generators were at some risk with my setup. They are replacable. People aren't. Sounds like he was half right.

I think I understand the issue with a floating neutral at least to the potential shock hazard that creates. If I understand this right when you are saying unbonded neutral you mean without a ground path????

Interestingly my utility doesn't have nearly as much to say on this as one would think. They offer three instructions abbreviated below:
1. Disconnect the main breaker at the house panel if energizing the house. For lineman safety.
2. Read the generator manual.
3. Use a liscensed electrician.

Perhaps they think item # 3 will get them a 3 pole disconnect (transfer switch)???

I'm on BGE and here's the link to thier site: BGE generators
You would think their statement # 1 would be a little more concise given the risks to lineman being discussed both there and here.

I'm not for taking chances on this now that I have more information. However a bit more explanation wouldn't hurt for those of use who are electrically challanged. Downstream of the panel many of us can stay out of trouble.... or so I thought. Obviously not so here on the reverse side of the panel. Can a step down transformer actually take my 220 volts and present 8,000 volts (through a neutral) back to the grid?? I've never seen a house neutral carry that kind of (220)voltage and wouldn't the voltage, if presented to the transformer, be on the wrong lines to produce the step up???

Appreciate the education. Happy New Year!

_RaT_ · Dec 31, 2004

"I'm missing something here, I just cant put my finger on it..."

About 25 db. The Troybilt is quite a bit noisier. For a general purpose backup generator that needs to run full blast whether it's running an alarm clock or water heater, it's fine. I would agree that if your budget won't allow it, you don't care about the noise and your an infrequent user, your Troybilt would be fine. I simply offered the link as a heads up for anyone who might not be in the same situation as you. Your example of using a UPS system certainly would work well to help condition the voltage and to some extent, the sine wave. In the end its what you need and are willing to pay. I know the Honda is more costly and I know where it is better, the question will be, are we willing to pay for it.

Soundguy · Dec 31, 2004

I just picked up a 12/13kw pto genny from northern tool. Cost me about 1300$ between shipping and the pto shaft.

Good clean power if ya got a 24+ hp tractor to spare.

Soundguy

Inspector507 · Dec 31, 2004

OK.......I'll try to clear up some confusion, which will confuse some even more.
Canada's and the US power distribution is very similar, not many differences at all. Butt-wraps are common almost everywhere in the US and probably Canada as well. The butt-wrap is nothing more than to discharge transient voltage, and to stabilize the voltage coming out of the transformer somewhat.
There are 2 types of gensets that we as homeowners might use. One has the neutral bonded to the frame (the grounded portion of the genset). The other is a "floating neutral".

If it's bonded to the frame, it is also bonded to the ground connection which eventually should tie to the house electrical system's ground. Hence, the neutral is "grounded" and a transfer switch should open that connection. If not, the neutral is grounded in 2 locations and creates a parallel path to ground, which is not desirable.

If it's not bonded to the genset ground, the neutral needs a solid connection to the house neutral which is "grounded" at the incoming supply. The ground in the genset is strictly an equipment ground for the generator.

The ground inside your house wiring exists to provide a low impedance path for fault current to travel back to the neutral (grounded conductor at the supply) to open your overcurrent protective device (breaker/fuse).

The neutral at the pole is also grounded there, as well as the house. Once again to stabilize the voltage and to discharge stray voltages, i.e. lightning, etc. If there should be a fault to the neutral before it gets to your house, there is a fuse at the transformer that will blow.

Yes, a step down transformer, when back-fed with 240V, will produce high voltage back down the power lines. But it's very improbable that any voltage will be introduced on the neutral.

srs · Dec 31, 2004

Inspector507, I know this has been said before and I'll repeat it but I am just amazed at your electrical knowledge and how thoughtful you are to share it with members here at TBN. You are very kind to help us who are really electrically challenged. Thank You! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif

ducati996 · Dec 31, 2004

( "I'm missing something here, I just cant put my finger on it..."

About 25 db. The Troybilt is quite a bit noisier. For a general purpose backup generator that needs to run full blast whether it's running an alarm clock or water heater, it's fine. I would agree that if your budget won't allow it, you don't care about the noise and your an infrequent user, your Troybilt would be fine. I simply offered the link as a heads up for anyone who might not be in the same situation as you. Your example of using a UPS system certainly would work well to help condition the voltage and to some extent, the sine wave. In the end its what you need and are willing to pay. I know the Honda is more costly and I know where it is better, the question will be, are we willing to pay for it. )

I'm sorry Rat if I came across like it was a bad suggestion or idea. I just saw the price on that unit and expected a lot more overall for the cost....
I think you can get LP units for that price and units that push out 14Kw...I have a Coleman 6250 max surge unit and it powers everything I need in my house. That includes TV', computers, lights, heat, frig and a few other items. I use a transfer switch as well. The Troy Built unit at Lowes is even better than my Coleman with considerably more power.
Hondas are quite no doubt and are the preferred motor....but if your budget is more conservative that good ole Troy Built unit will do wonders /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
I do appreciates your suggestions regardless, sorry for being
rude /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif

Ducati

_RaT_ · Dec 31, 2004

No doubt about the price issue, I'm also in the same thought process as you. My power outages are so infrequent, all I want is enough to run the well, run the refrigerator and after that, it's all gravy. I really enjoy the quieter generators but it's secondary to just having a generator. My real preference is to eventually have some solar/battery equipment. California offers a pretty generous rebate on solar. My sister in law generates about 4000 watts during the summer between 1:00 PM to 6:00 PM everyday which averages out her bill to about $75 year.

v8dave · Jan 1, 2005

(
. . . snip . . .
I've run my sensitive electronics on generated power thru UPS backups, with zero issues.....
. . . snip . . .
Ducati)

Most modest duty UPS system intended for home and small office use do not run the AC output on the inverter supply all the time. They run in bypass and switch to battery/inverter when the power goes away.

They have some transient supression in them (just like a protected plug strip), an inexpensive battery charge in them to keep the battery charged, and a fast switching system to kick in the battery/inverter power when the line goes away. They do have a few millisecond drop out when the power goes away and they depend on the computer's power supply to cover the few milliseconds drop out.

Only the expensive critical power UPS units convert the line to DC and run the inverter off the battery all the time. They may or may not be heavier but they'll have fans in them to cool the DC supply.

Note I state most not all UPS. Unless your UPS brags about being a full time supplier of UPS AC you probably have a switched unit. Which, is perfectly fine and works like a charm. It just doesn't condition the line power beyond the surge protectors.

RalphVa · Jan 1, 2005

I've used my 4,000 watt Suzuki electric start gas generator several times as backup. It feeds into a panel that the original owner had installed prior to Y2K. Feed 220v into that, which has a switch that turns off the power to the Y2K box and lets the generator power in.

The Y2K box has the essentials like: water pump, kitchen plugs (incl. frig), family room & master bedroom. I wired another 120 box from the generator that feeds power to my frig in the basement (incl. computer) and plugs in my carriage house to incl. my freezer there. All I do is start the generator, flip the double switch to the Y2K box, turn off power to carriage house and flip the switches to route the 120v power to it and basement frig/computer. Then I have to move the frig plug to the generator outlet plug on the wall and run an extension cord to the computer across the room.

The 4,000 watt generator does fine on all the above (3 friges, 1 freezer and lights/TV) and has enough left for a 1,500 watt heater for hot water to kitchen sink OR microwave OR a 1,500 watt heater for outside showers. I have to flip everything off to start the well pump. It apparently needs all the 10 x 220 = 2200 watts to start it. I let it pressurize up until shutdown and then flip it off and turn everything else back on. It'll do for a couple showers and a lot of kitchen water usage until it needs it done again. Would like to have about a 6,000 watt PTO generator to avoid having to do this.

The 4,000 watt generator runs for about 6-8 hours on its approx. 4 gallon tank.

Ralph

ducati996 · Jan 1, 2005

( (
. . . snip . . .
I've run my sensitive electronics on generated power thru UPS backups, with zero issues.....
. . . snip . . .
Ducati)

Most modest duty UPS system intended for home and small office use do not run the AC output on the inverter supply all the time. They run in bypass and switch to battery/inverter when the power goes away.

They have some transient supression in them (just like a protected plug strip), an inexpensive battery charge in them to keep the battery charged, and a fast switching system to kick in the battery/inverter power when the line goes away. They do have a few millisecond drop out when the power goes away and they depend on the computer's power supply to cover the few milliseconds drop out.

Only the expensive critical power UPS units convert the line to DC and run the inverter off the battery all the time. They may or may not be heavier but they'll have fans in them to cool the DC supply.

Note I state most not all UPS. Unless your UPS brags about being a full time supplier of UPS AC you probably have a switched unit. Which, is perfectly fine and works like a charm. It just doesn't condition the line power beyond the surge protectors.

)

The technology on the Home/small office based units have increased dramatically....models like this one are available in local retailers at a good discount....even the smaller units do a great job during blackouts/spikes and protect well..

The model I selected has the power conditioner feature as well
There are other brands that offer the same. APC is not the only type...

web page

If you value your home electronics these steps should already be in place regardless if you use a generator or not.
You high def. TV's, P.C, phones, faxes, etc....should all already be protected. I find the performance of these units to exceed any requirement a small business/home user will encounter. I have already experienced it, and everything worked as expected, no damage....

Ducati

Bob_Skurka · Jan 1, 2005

With the talk of clean power, surge protection, etc I have a related question: Does anyone else have a "whole house surge supressor" installed in their fuse box?

Our house sits on a ridge and we've been struck by lighting too many times to count. After replacing a few VCRs, TVs, a computer, a phone system and countless other things our electrician suggested a whole house surge supressor. It is wired right into the fuse box. We also put supressors on the electronics, and a UPS on the internet satellite sytem, router, etc.

My generator panel (which sounds a lot like the Y2K panel previously described in this thread) feeds the generators power through the whole house supressor as well. If I understand it correctly, it should protect the circuits from a generator surge. It does not clean the generator power, but it is supposed to potect everything from spikes.

I'm reasonably clueless about this stuff and rely on my electrical contractor. I've recently made a large investment in home theater and this thread really got me wondering about not only clean power but surges. Do the whole house surge supressors do what they are cracked up to do?