Portable Generator

dicker · Dec 30, 2004

I guess you can call that safe and cheap. However, I think a couple hundred dollars is a lot safer and cheaper in the long run. Will your insurance company cover you if something were to happen to your house under these circumstances.
Richard

jjk0091 · Dec 30, 2004

My shingles and sofets were gone, my ceilings were falling in, the carpets were pulled out, the last thing I was worried about was will my insurance company care. Thousands of people in my area did exactly what I did and I never heard of any problems. Now running the generator in the garage had dire circumstances. If you have time to plan then do it right. Otherwise you do what has to be done to survive.

Inspector507 · Dec 30, 2004

Tom,
Was still wading through the posts, knowing I needed to answer/post to one I had read.
MOST transfer switches, yes even UL Listed ones, do not disconnect the neutral conductor. There is no danger to the utility workers if the neutral is not disconnected. Unless of course you've connected something wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The more expensive set-ups for hospitals and high rises maybe, but not your residential variety transfer switch. The neutral in mine stays connected.

nobull1 · Dec 30, 2004

( Tom,
Was still wading through the posts, knowing I needed to answer/post to one I had read.
MOST transfer switches, yes even UL Listed ones, do not disconnect the neutral conductor. There is no danger to the utility workers if the neutral is not disconnected. Unless of course you've connected something wrong /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif The more expensive set-ups for hospitals and high rises maybe, but not your residential variety transfer switch. The neutral in mine stays connected. )
Well I'm going to stick my nose into something that I have limited knowledge of, but here goes. I have just purchased a 6500 watt Honda generator for our house and barn. Upon visual and checking specs I find that it has a GFI that requires and has a bonded neutral. My understanding is when you have a bonded neutral and have it attached to a permanent/house setup you have to have a 3 pole transfer switch which will break the neutral. The reason for this is you can have a double loop and the ground could possibly be a carrier of voltage instead of the neutral?So off I go to Home Depot to see what they have. After confusing all but one person we found yes you can buy and they do carry in stock a 3 pole generator/transfer switch. It appears it is somewhat common in this area. The other way to get around this is to remove the bonded neutral and make it float at the generator. The problem is now you have a potential lack of ground problem when used as a stand alone generator as well as non-compliance with the safety people. The power corp in our area is very adament on how you will hook it up. They even go as far as to post pic's of how you will wire it if your generator is neutral bonded or not. The installation is a inspectable permit job in our area so it has to be right. I also believe you have to mark on your transfer box which type of generator can be used on the setup. The main reason for what I am saying is to let people know how dangerous this can be. Most people have little understanding of what could happen by just one mistake and a unknowing one at that. I have been told that if you backfeed to a transformer on a pole you can step up the voltage the same as it steps down. The amount of voltage depends on the area but 8000 volts is pretty common before the transformer. If you fry your local linesman you will not be popular for sure. Don't even want to think what your insurance company is going to say in a case like that. Times like this it would be nice to have polecat back as I'm sure he'd have something to say /forums/images/graemlins/blush.gif /forums/images/graemlins/mad.gif /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

Inspector507 · Dec 30, 2004

Maybe because it's supplied through the GFI outlet on the genset.

nobull1 · Dec 30, 2004

( Maybe because it's supplied through the GFI outlet on the genset. )
I'm sure that's just what it is. Honda even has a bulletin out on how to unground the neutral for such uses. The problem is if you use a 2 pole transfer switch and unbond the neutral at the generator than it is non-compliant as a stand alone at a job site. This is way beyond the average Joe[no disrespect to anyone] and is a reason to get a electrician to do a proper hookup and know your safe. I now know way more than I wanted to know and realize now, I know very little /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif. I wonder how many people know if their generator is neutral/bonded and if they need a 2 or 3 pole transfer switch to meet code?

_RaT_ · Dec 30, 2004

Speculation on my part but I think if Canada is requiring a neutral be disconnected on a generator disconnect, they are using considerably different transformer setups then we are in the US. In California, they use "butt wraps" on the pole. Essentially it is where the neutral and ground bond. First and foremost for a utility worker to receive a tingle off a neutral, something went very wrong with everything. Why everything? Because your neutral in urban areas is also tied to many, even hundreds of other households. Even getting a voltage past a couple of homes on the two hots would be a trick unless you have a very large generator and the grid is not drawing beyond what you produce. Having a disconnect is a very good idea not only to protect utility workers, not only because it is code, but because without it, your generator would take a dump faster then you can bat an eye. Out here, utility workers never assume the line is dead. All the wires are bonded and grounded with jumpers. If your generator is pumping out more then those jumpers can ground, you've got a power plant, not just a simple generator. /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif

_RaT_ · Dec 30, 2004

Steve, while quite pricey, the new EM5000is and EM7000is watt inverter generators from Honda are incredible. They only run as fast as required for the load. That means at idle and a small load, you can run the EM5000is generator well over 15 hours on less then 4.5 gallons and the best part, only 62 db. If noise and superb efficiency are important, these are hard to beat. As the load increases so does the engine RPM. The sine wave is actually better then the wave from your utility company. The inverter generators are specifically designed to run all sensitive electronic equipment. The drawback is the price. EM7000is

ducati996 · Dec 30, 2004

I have to question whats so great about the EM5000is that requires a $3800 MSRP price? as mentioned earlier in this thread a $700 TRoy built generates more power than this Honda without even hitting a surge rating. Clean power?
typical home electronics need nothing more than a battery UPS back up to help regulate clean power. Hopefully these are already in place with these electronics before any power outage! To me I feel perfectly ok saving $3000 on a generator that runs on gas, and generates less wattage.
I've run my sensitive electronics on generated power thru UPS backups, with zero issues.....**** even if my generator konks out, I can buy another and still save a bundle....
I'm missing something here, I just cant put my finger on it... /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif

Ducati

bugstruck · Dec 30, 2004

Okay you guys have me /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif. I understood before I did my setup that the neutral and ground are bonded in my electrical panel. The layman in me thought that any limited voltage present at the neutral would be sunk at the ground for the house panel. I now understand from what I read here that is not so. When I went to a liscensed Master Electrician prior to doing this he said it's not following the letter of the code but it also was not something that would cause a problem for the power company people. He advised both me and a friend with the same setup that our generators were at some risk with my setup. They are replacable. People aren't. Sounds like he was half right.

I think I understand the issue with a floating neutral at least to the potential shock hazard that creates. If I understand this right when you are saying unbonded neutral you mean without a ground path????

Interestingly my utility doesn't have nearly as much to say on this as one would think. They offer three instructions abbreviated below:
1. Disconnect the main breaker at the house panel if energizing the house. For lineman safety.
2. Read the generator manual.
3. Use a liscensed electrician.

Perhaps they think item # 3 will get them a 3 pole disconnect (transfer switch)???

I'm on BGE and here's the link to thier site: BGE generators
You would think their statement # 1 would be a little more concise given the risks to lineman being discussed both there and here.

I'm not for taking chances on this now that I have more information. However a bit more explanation wouldn't hurt for those of use who are electrically challanged. Downstream of the panel many of us can stay out of trouble.... or so I thought. Obviously not so here on the reverse side of the panel. Can a step down transformer actually take my 220 volts and present 8,000 volts (through a neutral) back to the grid?? I've never seen a house neutral carry that kind of (220)voltage and wouldn't the voltage, if presented to the transformer, be on the wrong lines to produce the step up???

Appreciate the education. Happy New Year!