Pole barn heating Q's

[CTyler]

Pole barn heating Q\'s

I have a 50x64x12 insulated pole barn. I'm finishing off a 16x50 side of it and have it framed up 75% wired and pumbed.

Within the finished area we will be using a ventless 30k btu blue flame propane heater.
Q1) Do I need to keep the propane line x amount of feet from electrical? My electician I contracted to wire my house wasn't sure. Haven't asked my plumbing/HVAC contractor.

The rest of the shop will be heated with wood via a double barrel wood stove kit. The flu will be 6".

Q2) What is the best way to cut a hole in the steel roof?

When I installed my vent pipe for plumbing I had a hard time with the sawzall. The metal wanted to flap all over making it real hard to get a nice cut.

Q3)Would a jigsaw do the same thing as the sawzall? I.E. flap flap flap. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif

I need to check local codes in wether we need double or triple wall through the roof.

Q4) Regarding the damper in the flu. What is the proper setting? Do you try to match the intake?

I've never used a damper in a wood stove. We always adjusted the air intake for desired heat. Then at night turn it most of the way down so you still had embers in the morning.

Q5)I have read that the ventless heaters are picky about fumes from WD-40 paint etc.. Am I going to get funny smells or anything running the heater and the wood stove? We were thinking about adding one to the shop side as well.

I know this is a bunch of questions....Thanks!!

 

[Junkman]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

My propane company says 6 feet from any electrical device for the tank. Had to move it after the A/C people put the condenser next to the tank...... guess that they didn't know the rules either....

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Thanks.

I should clarify my post. The propane tank(1000 gal?) will be outside. I need to run the line inside through the framed wall about 20 feet or so.

My romex runs through the wall about 3 1/2' high(waist high).
I was planning on running the propane line above that at 4' or so. Or higher if it need be all the way to 8' though the joists.

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Update.....

This is almost laughable but now I'm really confused. The code states it must be 5' from a source of combustion.

So what is considered a source of combustion? The laughable part is the heater IS the source of combustion...LOL!! The heater can have a blower with a switch as well. I didn't get it though. Maybe the switch and fan motor is sealed?? Dunno.

So seriously would an electrical outlet or light switch, since they are no sealed, be considered a source of combustion?

 

[beenthere]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

"".....ventless 30k btu blue flame propane heater""

You didn't ask for this information, so I gently suggest you reconsider your ventless heater decision, and make it a vented heater. I made that mistake once, and the heat they provide will make your space "dripping wet" with condensation. Amazing just how much moisture comes from combustion of LP gas.

If you already know that there will be a lot of moisture from the use of the ventless, then you are making an informed decision. I have no problem with that. Just want to be sure you know what you are getting into. /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Hi and thanks.

Yes I am aware that the heater will create some moisture and plan to watch it. I would like to keep it around a 40% humidity level.

I've done a lot of reading about this and don't think it will be a problem since we will heat with wood as well. The problem seems to be when the building is very tight. The finished area will be fairly tight but the rest of the shop is not. Also past experiance has shown its hard to keep a reasonable amount of humidity around here in the winter time anyway.

Some people love them others do not. I'm not sure if its' the location, moisture in the propane, building tolerances or all of the above that contribute to this. Now I'm not sure if there is moisture in the propane itself or if its the humidity level in the air to begin with that makes the moisture subject more/less of an issue. For example: Some peeps have talked about how much more moisture there is in N.Y.'s propane than were they moved from. Is it the propane or the air?

We'll see how it goes. If it doesn't work out the heater was only a couple hundred bucks. I can always install a vented furnace later and run duct etc.. The finished area is 8' and the shop is 12' to the bottom of the truss. So all that area above the finished area will be open to run duct work along the wall if need be. The rest of the space will be for storage someday when I throw some OSB up there.

 

[PaulT]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

I don't know anything about water in the propane (shouldn't be ANY), but the humidity coming from the ventless heater is a byproduct of combustion. In any hydrocarbon-based combustion, you combine the hydrogen in the hydrocarbon with the oxygen in the air, and you get H20 (di-hydrogen (mon) oxide?). And gobs of it, too! If its not vented to the outside, even with a "loose" building and a wood stove, you will probably be closer to 70% humidity than 40%. I suggest the vented route, as well. All of that condensation is really hard on metal tools, wooden window panes and frames, etc. Just my opinion.

 

[slowzuki]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Depending on local conditions, it is really dry in our area during the winter, we are always boiling water on the stove to combat this.

The spring is one exception, it gets really damp.

Ditto for the water, it comes from combustion.

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Ditto for the water, it comes from combustion. )</font>

Thanks, I knew moisture was generated from the combustion. Didn't really think LPG had any water in it either but was't 100% sure.

</font><font color="blue" class="small">( Depending on local conditions, it is really dry in our area during the winter, we are always boiling water on the stove to combat this. )</font>

When I lived in Montana we did that all the time as well. Put a tea pot or pan of water on the stove, otherwise you'd dry up and blow away /forums/images/graemlins/tongue.gif


FYI...For the roof I bought a air nibler at Harbor Freight to cut my next hole.

 

[Hoeman00]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Did u try 24 or 32 tpi blades in sawz-all or jig saw.
U need atleast 2 teeth on the material when cutting.
This is for any saw.
BTW a set of tin snips w/ left,right and straight work good too.

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

I don't recall TPI for sure. It was a metal blade, 22 or 24 TPI sounds about right though.

 

[gsganzer]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

If you have an air compressor, get a "sheet metal shear" for it. You can find a cheap one that will probably work alright for occasional use. It's another one of those tools that make you wonder how you ever managed without.

 

[tejuban]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

I was a L.P. tech for 12 years befor retireing. Heres the code in our state, WI.
A 1000 gal. tank must be 25 ft from a building, must be away from electrical service pole/box. The gas line in the building must be black iron pipe or copper tubbing, no sweat joints as they would reqiure flame to repair a leak. No compression fittings, not water grade flare nuts. Use the heavy duty flare nuts and fittings. Iprefere black iron. Do not use teflon tape as a sealer, pieces can get into the line and the gas valves. Use teflon paste. LP gas will leak where other fuels would not. Check installation with leak detector or soapy water, watch for bubbles. Do not use chlorine base soap as it corrodes copper. Proximity of line to electric wires, boxes etc. is imaterial. L.P is heavier than air, it will seek the lowest level if a leak occurs, it produces one gallon of water for each one gallon of gas burned. There must be absolutely no leaks in the system, from the tank to the unit. No PVC piping alowed above ground. Some states may be different. Codes change all the time and I've been out of it for six years, so check your local codes. Double wall vent is class B and approved only for gas, not wood. A wood burner requires a class A vent. LP is a good safe fuel, but if installed sloppy or carelessly it is very dangerous, more so than natural, as it is heavier than air and at higher pressure.

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

I have a pair of shears. Trouble was trying to get enough angle to cut over the ridge in the metal. That was installing the 3" vent pipe. If I had planned a bit better they would have worked ok on the flat.

When I install the 6" flue for the stove it will be on the flat. At any rate I already bought a cheap nibler. Now in hind sight I probably could have used the air hammer with the panel cutter.

 

[CTyler]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

Thanks for the info.

I talked with the HVAC guys that are installing the heatpump, propane backup an log lighter. They stated I could run the line about anywhere in my shop. They are getting me the proper flexible line to run in the wall along with the proper fittings.

The Propane Co. installed a 1000 galllon tank. Here it only has to be 10' from the building. Its' sitting about 15' away. Yea...like 5' is gonna make a diff if it blows...LOL!!

They also use black pipe for the stub outs but still have plastic out of the ground. I found that a little confusing but haven't asked about it....yet.

Ok....so the only question I really have left is the damper and how it should be used. Should the damper be set about the same as the draft(air intake)?

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

[NIXON]

Re: Pole barn heating Q\'s

CT , Look for a Nibbler at the local rental place . Bosch and Milwaulkee (sp ) make good nibblers . Lay out the circle for your vent , drill a hole in the lay out big enough to accept the head of the nibbler,and go to it .
If you're not familiar with the tool try it on a piece of scrap first . John