Wingnut
Veteran Member
good one .... working smarter is much more efficient than working harder.
Generation of value is my yardstick.
Generation of value is my yardstick.
Our Dependencies
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Wingnut
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>the management who was working the striking employees job</font color=blue>
I'd certainly buy that if it were one tire from one plant ....
but it wasn't ....
nor does it explain the other comments I made .... which I would just put all together under <font color=blue>sabotage.</font color=blue>. Very few marbles are actually used in the manufacturer of an automobile.
Speaking of striking .... what I always like is the fact that the union always gets a clause in that prevents management from prosecuting strikers who damaged company or private property during the strike. I know the animals that attacked my wife and destroyed her car during a strike were never prosecuted or penalized in any way.
I'd certainly buy that if it were one tire from one plant ....
but it wasn't ....
nor does it explain the other comments I made .... which I would just put all together under <font color=blue>sabotage.</font color=blue>. Very few marbles are actually used in the manufacturer of an automobile.
Speaking of striking .... what I always like is the fact that the union always gets a clause in that prevents management from prosecuting strikers who damaged company or private property during the strike. I know the animals that attacked my wife and destroyed her car during a strike were never prosecuted or penalized in any way.
utahmule
Silver Member
Pete,
Agreed again, never asked for a raise, and other than elective job changes recently, never went a year without a raise and/or bonus.
Agreed again, never asked for a raise, and other than elective job changes recently, never went a year without a raise and/or bonus.
Egon
Epic Contributor
Pete;
I was there building roadbed and then the road to Grande Cache. The camps were about 250 man size when in full operation.
I think the jet boats were put to use in the very preliminary stages of deciding where the track would go. This may have been before your time out there.
And yes I remember the new operators working thier way up the line day by day til they got to stay on. I can also remember some very good operators who did not know how to start thier machines as they were left running at shifts end and running at the start of the shift.
Egon
I was there building roadbed and then the road to Grande Cache. The camps were about 250 man size when in full operation.
I think the jet boats were put to use in the very preliminary stages of deciding where the track would go. This may have been before your time out there.
And yes I remember the new operators working thier way up the line day by day til they got to stay on. I can also remember some very good operators who did not know how to start thier machines as they were left running at shifts end and running at the start of the shift.
Egon
<font color=blue>I'd certainly buy that if it were one tire from one plant ....
but it wasn't ....</font color=blue>
I am sure you are wrong on this point...I heard it somewhere,but if you can prove it to me I will accept.You tell me where you heard about these marbles and I want to see it in writing also about a janitor making $100,000.the <font color=blue>average UAW worker made $60,000 last year with overtime.</font color=blue>
You do not have to be in a union to be guilty of sabotage,you can be in management and be guilty of the same thing.I am not in a union and I never have been,but I can tell you I have a better job because of the threat of a union.Have you ever heard of the company store?Have you ever heard of Mark Rich the crook that Bill Clinton pardoned that bought an aluminum plant from Kaiser Aluminum???Locked out a bunch of union workers and hired replacement workers. Get the book and read it'Ravenswood" The steelworkers victory and the revival of American labor...Authors Tom Juravich& Kate Bronfenbrener...it all happened about 20 miles from where I live.
Now if you have 500 men and women working together representation can help and yes some of the strikes are ridiculous,I have never advocated violence on a picket line or anywhere else,it is like hunting, a few bad hunters can give hunting a bad name.Just like these idiots torching a town because a football team won a game.
A union can help promote safety on a job,do you think Marc Rich cared about safety/ there was a lot of fatalities with the replacement workers Rich just cared about production and money he turned Osha away at the gate more than once.,not all strikes are over money,some of them are about safety and working conditions.When you have 500 people working together not everyone can be recognized for there contributions and on the same token it makes it harder to get rid of the "rift raft".I guarantee you if there was no union there would be a lot of people working for minimum wage.
There are other things that add to the expense of operating a business in the US besides labor and that is the enviroment,a lot of these 3rd world countries do not have to adhere to the enviromental policys (EPA) and the safety guidelines(OSHA).
I have seen some people strike for some dumb things and then I have seen management do some things that would make you think that they wanted you to sign a union card.
hard work...you aint got a thing on me as far as hard work goes.
There is 2 sides to every coin,that is why they say negotiate and bargain in good faith.
Is a union the answer to everything?No..........has the union hurt itself...you betcha,has it helped a lot of people ...absolutely.
I could go on....but hey whats the point ?
but it wasn't ....</font color=blue>
I am sure you are wrong on this point...I heard it somewhere,but if you can prove it to me I will accept.You tell me where you heard about these marbles and I want to see it in writing also about a janitor making $100,000.the <font color=blue>average UAW worker made $60,000 last year with overtime.</font color=blue>
You do not have to be in a union to be guilty of sabotage,you can be in management and be guilty of the same thing.I am not in a union and I never have been,but I can tell you I have a better job because of the threat of a union.Have you ever heard of the company store?Have you ever heard of Mark Rich the crook that Bill Clinton pardoned that bought an aluminum plant from Kaiser Aluminum???Locked out a bunch of union workers and hired replacement workers. Get the book and read it'Ravenswood" The steelworkers victory and the revival of American labor...Authors Tom Juravich& Kate Bronfenbrener...it all happened about 20 miles from where I live.
Now if you have 500 men and women working together representation can help and yes some of the strikes are ridiculous,I have never advocated violence on a picket line or anywhere else,it is like hunting, a few bad hunters can give hunting a bad name.Just like these idiots torching a town because a football team won a game.
A union can help promote safety on a job,do you think Marc Rich cared about safety/ there was a lot of fatalities with the replacement workers Rich just cared about production and money he turned Osha away at the gate more than once.,not all strikes are over money,some of them are about safety and working conditions.When you have 500 people working together not everyone can be recognized for there contributions and on the same token it makes it harder to get rid of the "rift raft".I guarantee you if there was no union there would be a lot of people working for minimum wage.
There are other things that add to the expense of operating a business in the US besides labor and that is the enviroment,a lot of these 3rd world countries do not have to adhere to the enviromental policys (EPA) and the safety guidelines(OSHA).
I have seen some people strike for some dumb things and then I have seen management do some things that would make you think that they wanted you to sign a union card.
hard work...you aint got a thing on me as far as hard work goes.
There is 2 sides to every coin,that is why they say negotiate and bargain in good faith.
Is a union the answer to everything?No..........has the union hurt itself...you betcha,has it helped a lot of people ...absolutely.
I could go on....but hey whats the point ?
Wingnut,
I must be a real night-owl since 20+ posts have been made before I can login again to read your response, but I worked until 7:00pm - the last person to leave again. That's O.K., the office is nice and quite after 5:00pm.
First, I read your story of how you survived and then prospered as you educated yourself and constructed your own career with much admiration. People like you, are the ones I look up to.
Second, my problem with people in general is that many of them feel the are entitled to a certain standard of living. They deserve a nice house, a new car, nightly entertainment. They don't have any concept that they need to EARN these things. Unions, or at least the 2 in which that I was a member, encourage their people to believe that they deserve a 10 percent raise every year. Everybody deserving a 10 percent raise, no matter how hard or how little they work isn't good for the company, but that's why so many companies have moved overseas.
When I worked in the barrel factory, the company wanted to shutdown the second shift for the holidays since business was slow. They asked for a single volunteer to work second shift running the press that makes the lids for the barrels. None of my union brethren were interested so I volunteered. The reason they needed the press to run two shifts is that they couldn't make enough lids to keep up with the barrel production. Some industrial engineers did study of the plant and recommended amounts of products that each machine can produce. Naturally the company established quotas, and for that press the number was 1800 lids per shift. Since it was a union shop, the company couldn't enforce these quotas, so the current operators usually made about 900 each shift. So on my first night, it is only me and the foreman, he showed me how to make a couple of lids, and how to change the dies. He told me the quota, and I went to work. Six and a half hours later, I approached the foreman and told him I was done. He couldn't believe it, so he went and counted the lids. He told me to go home. I protested and told him I needed the money to pay for school. I offered to make more lids until the shift was over. He told me to go home, and he would punch me out at the scheduled time. The next night, I made my quota in six hours and went home early again. The following night against company policy but with foreman's permission, I brought a small TV to watch while I worked. I still finished in 6 hours. I did this for two weeks, until the rest of the workers returned. I went back to assembly line since the lid maker was more senior than me, and the company went back to getting 900 lids per shift. The regular lid maker didn't deserve to make the same money that I did, but I earned the privilege of going home early when I made the quota during those two weeks. If my union brothers would have found out about our arrangement, they would of had me fired or forced me to stay at the plant until the shift was over...so, I never told them. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
It is the same no matter who you are, or no matter how much you make. Janitors don't deserve $100,000 and even some CEO's don't deserve $100,000 for that matter. When I read that a CEO made 50 million bucks, I doubt he earn it, but it is possible, if through his decisions and directions the company made a billion bucks or avoided likely bankruptcy.
I must be a real night-owl since 20+ posts have been made before I can login again to read your response, but I worked until 7:00pm - the last person to leave again. That's O.K., the office is nice and quite after 5:00pm.
First, I read your story of how you survived and then prospered as you educated yourself and constructed your own career with much admiration. People like you, are the ones I look up to.
Second, my problem with people in general is that many of them feel the are entitled to a certain standard of living. They deserve a nice house, a new car, nightly entertainment. They don't have any concept that they need to EARN these things. Unions, or at least the 2 in which that I was a member, encourage their people to believe that they deserve a 10 percent raise every year. Everybody deserving a 10 percent raise, no matter how hard or how little they work isn't good for the company, but that's why so many companies have moved overseas.
When I worked in the barrel factory, the company wanted to shutdown the second shift for the holidays since business was slow. They asked for a single volunteer to work second shift running the press that makes the lids for the barrels. None of my union brethren were interested so I volunteered. The reason they needed the press to run two shifts is that they couldn't make enough lids to keep up with the barrel production. Some industrial engineers did study of the plant and recommended amounts of products that each machine can produce. Naturally the company established quotas, and for that press the number was 1800 lids per shift. Since it was a union shop, the company couldn't enforce these quotas, so the current operators usually made about 900 each shift. So on my first night, it is only me and the foreman, he showed me how to make a couple of lids, and how to change the dies. He told me the quota, and I went to work. Six and a half hours later, I approached the foreman and told him I was done. He couldn't believe it, so he went and counted the lids. He told me to go home. I protested and told him I needed the money to pay for school. I offered to make more lids until the shift was over. He told me to go home, and he would punch me out at the scheduled time. The next night, I made my quota in six hours and went home early again. The following night against company policy but with foreman's permission, I brought a small TV to watch while I worked. I still finished in 6 hours. I did this for two weeks, until the rest of the workers returned. I went back to assembly line since the lid maker was more senior than me, and the company went back to getting 900 lids per shift. The regular lid maker didn't deserve to make the same money that I did, but I earned the privilege of going home early when I made the quota during those two weeks. If my union brothers would have found out about our arrangement, they would of had me fired or forced me to stay at the plant until the shift was over...so, I never told them. /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif
It is the same no matter who you are, or no matter how much you make. Janitors don't deserve $100,000 and even some CEO's don't deserve $100,000 for that matter. When I read that a CEO made 50 million bucks, I doubt he earn it, but it is possible, if through his decisions and directions the company made a billion bucks or avoided likely bankruptcy.
WVBill
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>"like another landmark in West Virgina for the wunder-Byrd. "</font color=blue>
hey.. hey... watch it there....
What's wrong with putting the USDA Cool and Cold Water Fisheries Research Facility in Byrd's West Virginia instead of Michigan. I mean just because they had to build a stadium-sized refrigerated building because it isn't cold enough in WV for the fish they're researching...
I live in WV, but can you say PORK?
of course PORK = POLITICS and Byrd isn't the only one.
hey.. hey... watch it there....
What's wrong with putting the USDA Cool and Cold Water Fisheries Research Facility in Byrd's West Virginia instead of Michigan. I mean just because they had to build a stadium-sized refrigerated building because it isn't cold enough in WV for the fish they're researching...
I live in WV, but can you say PORK?
of course PORK = POLITICS and Byrd isn't the only one.
Bird
Rest in Peace
BigDave, you remind me of my first experience on a "salaried" job (after working on the farm, then mowing yards for spending money, and working in my Dad's service station, auto parts store, and bus station, of course). The local post office needed a part time substitute mail carrier just to work when one of the other mail carriers was off sick or on vacation during the summer; couldn't find anyone to take the job, so the postmaster had to get regional permission to give a teenager a temporary 3 month appointment (I was 17 at the time). The first day they called me to work was to deliver the parcel post for the town; took me 45 minutes (small town)/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif and as I walked back in the back door of the post office, I met one of the other carriers going out and he asked what I was doing back there. I thought he was kidding and just laughed and told him I was through. Then the assistant postmaster came and told me, very pointedly, "Bird, delivering the parcel post is a two hour job!" And the first time I walked a route, I was back at the post office in about 5.5 hours (I thought I was kinda slow because I was just learning), but was again emphatically informed that walking a route takes 8 hours. I had to learn to fool around, walk slower, visit along the way, take "coffee" breaks, etc./w3tcompact/icons/frown.gif I never forgot the experience, and postal workers were not even union in those days./w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif
Wingnut
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>I could go on....but hey whats the point ?</font color=blue>
well ... the point is to get all the information, feelings, misinformation, intuition and everything else out of the table so that we can understand each other. I feel like you do ... that it's extremely unlikely that I will convince you to chance your stance one iota .... but, since you have been polite enough to avoid personal attacks (thank you), I am willing to continue yto communicate.
I'm sorry, like you, I'm unable to provide absolute proof at this time. I have never really cared enough about the facts of the "bad tires" to have done more than read the papers and watch the news ... and my concern has been more along the lines of "more money grubbing lawyers" than anything else.
Marbles? Well, I'm sure if I do a search of Lexus/Nexus or any other valid database, I could dig out some of the stories, but I will just tell you that this specifc thing was related to me by my best friends brother ... who is a Chrysler union worker ... some years ago. He thought it was funny (we were sitting around drinking), and confided that they commonly did this to "teach the company a lesson" when they were upset. In his view it was harmless (just annoying to the customer) but would cost the company money to do a warranty repair.
Somehow I get the impression that you think I'm pro company and anti-union. Well, you're completely wrong on point one and completely right on point 2.
Why do I think that unions have outlived their usefulness and become a cancer?
Well ... I'm from Canada where unions are much more powerful than they are in the US. Canadian unions are akin to the British unions that have darned near destroyed all manufacturing in the UK. The auto unions in the US always wait for the CAW in Canada to do it's blackmailing before they attack the auto companies ... since it seems as though Buzz has the biggest bat in the world. Unoins in Canada don't bother trying to hassle the company ... they immediately start trying to adversely effect the public .... and the best union at those tactics are: the posties (for some reason they always pick the Christmas season to strike, wonder why) and the teachers (who strike "for the children").
<font color=blue>I can tell you I have a better job because of the threat of a union</font color=blue> sure ...we all do .... if you want to look back a century. I think it's more interesting nowadays. It's perfectly legal for a union wanting to get their foot in somewhere to send doorknockers around ... they usually look like they were too rough for the Russian Mafia ... to tell you about the benefits of joining and why you just might want to vote their way. And, at the same time, it's illegal fo rthe company to tell the workers why unionizing might be a bad thing.
Marc Rich ... sure I've heard of him ... he's a crook that was "pardoned" by another crook. You want to use him as an example of American business? Please!
I've read Ravenswood and I, personally, think it's a poorer work of fiction than Atlas Shrugged ... but at least Ayn Rand claimed her book was a novel. Sorry, having read as much as I do leads me to NOT believe everything I see in print. ****** wrote books, so did Lenin, and Mao ... and even Hillary Clinton.
<font color=blue>A union can help promote safety on a job</font color=blue> The operative word in that statement is CAN .... sure they can. Unfortunately, I have never seen a case of unions working hard for their workers safety. Currently, in the news here, we have a library workers union looking for more money; a teachers union that wants respect (spelled more money); a cops union that wants the town to pay more of the medical costs (i.e. more money), an construction unions that want the towns to only allow contractors with unionized workforces to bid on jobs. Unions don't get fined for unsafe work practices - companies do. Unless it's posturing for the newspapers, there is no value in safety. Now - benefits arising from working unsafely ... that's something they all want!
<font color=blue>average UAW worker made $60,000 last year with overtime</font color=blue> Can you point me to where you got that information? The union-friendly media here in mid-Michigan frequently make the claim that the average UAW wage (in Michigan) is $100,000 (and I'm sure overtime, if it's ever available, is included in that figure).
I keep referring to a $100k janitor and I probably should amend that to be fork truck driver, since he's the example I always think of. There was one of those "isn't this a wonderful world" articles in the paper several years ago about a gentleman in Detroit. He's nearing retirement, has a 9th grade education, and drives a fork truck at the Ford plant in (Dearborn?). For the past 3 years, he has made in excess of $100,000 each year (yes, with overtime) and lives in a simple one room aparatment ... using the money to provide scholarships to poor black youths. If you're really interested, I'm sure I could find that in Lexus/Nexas as it was reported in both the local papers we get - reprinted from the Detroit Free Press. Since I drove a fork truck - for $300 a month, when I was young, that story has managed to stick in my mind.
<font color=blue> I heard it somewhere,but if you can prove it to me </font color=blue> I'm sorry, but you see I have a real problem with that statement. We are both using "hearsay" and I'm not sure why the burdon of proof lies more on me than on you. I watched the proceedings on the whole "every tire made for the Exploder is unsafe" with interest, and the reports stated many times that the tires came from different plants, and that other tires were involved, and that it was a design flaw ... and I believe about 10% of it. If you want "proof", I would suggest that you review the files from the NHTSA archives ... all the findings are recorded online. My point was that workers made the tires ... not some CEO sitting in a posh office somewhere ... and therefore should be AT LEAST as much to blame.
Finally, let's youch on <font color=blue>There is 2 sides to every coin,that is why they say negotiate and bargain in good faith. </font color=blue>
That's one of my favorite union phrases. Have you ever noticed ... I mean really noticed ... that the union always accuses management of that ... but management is not allowed to accuse the union leaders? By the way, since you brought up a Clinton cronie as an example of businessmen ... can we also look at how many union leaders have been convicted of Mafia activities? Hey, how about that New York Transit union ... the one with the no strike clause ... that was going to strike a couple of weeks ago?
OK ... I'll get off my anti-union haywagon for now ... can you tell that I'm still annoyed about the incident back in 1977? And my wife's car (and mental scars)?
I have quite a few friends here (mostly in the Goldwing bike club) who are union (or retired union) and I think they're fine people. People usually are. Mobs are not ... and people become mobs at time.
If you want to trade proof - actual facts gleaned from respected (by both of us) sources, I'd be happy to continue.
regards
pete
well ... the point is to get all the information, feelings, misinformation, intuition and everything else out of the table so that we can understand each other. I feel like you do ... that it's extremely unlikely that I will convince you to chance your stance one iota .... but, since you have been polite enough to avoid personal attacks (thank you), I am willing to continue yto communicate.
I'm sorry, like you, I'm unable to provide absolute proof at this time. I have never really cared enough about the facts of the "bad tires" to have done more than read the papers and watch the news ... and my concern has been more along the lines of "more money grubbing lawyers" than anything else.
Marbles? Well, I'm sure if I do a search of Lexus/Nexus or any other valid database, I could dig out some of the stories, but I will just tell you that this specifc thing was related to me by my best friends brother ... who is a Chrysler union worker ... some years ago. He thought it was funny (we were sitting around drinking), and confided that they commonly did this to "teach the company a lesson" when they were upset. In his view it was harmless (just annoying to the customer) but would cost the company money to do a warranty repair.
Somehow I get the impression that you think I'm pro company and anti-union. Well, you're completely wrong on point one and completely right on point 2.
Why do I think that unions have outlived their usefulness and become a cancer?
Well ... I'm from Canada where unions are much more powerful than they are in the US. Canadian unions are akin to the British unions that have darned near destroyed all manufacturing in the UK. The auto unions in the US always wait for the CAW in Canada to do it's blackmailing before they attack the auto companies ... since it seems as though Buzz has the biggest bat in the world. Unoins in Canada don't bother trying to hassle the company ... they immediately start trying to adversely effect the public .... and the best union at those tactics are: the posties (for some reason they always pick the Christmas season to strike, wonder why) and the teachers (who strike "for the children").
<font color=blue>I can tell you I have a better job because of the threat of a union</font color=blue> sure ...we all do .... if you want to look back a century. I think it's more interesting nowadays. It's perfectly legal for a union wanting to get their foot in somewhere to send doorknockers around ... they usually look like they were too rough for the Russian Mafia ... to tell you about the benefits of joining and why you just might want to vote their way. And, at the same time, it's illegal fo rthe company to tell the workers why unionizing might be a bad thing.
Marc Rich ... sure I've heard of him ... he's a crook that was "pardoned" by another crook. You want to use him as an example of American business? Please!
I've read Ravenswood and I, personally, think it's a poorer work of fiction than Atlas Shrugged ... but at least Ayn Rand claimed her book was a novel. Sorry, having read as much as I do leads me to NOT believe everything I see in print. ****** wrote books, so did Lenin, and Mao ... and even Hillary Clinton.
<font color=blue>A union can help promote safety on a job</font color=blue> The operative word in that statement is CAN .... sure they can. Unfortunately, I have never seen a case of unions working hard for their workers safety. Currently, in the news here, we have a library workers union looking for more money; a teachers union that wants respect (spelled more money); a cops union that wants the town to pay more of the medical costs (i.e. more money), an construction unions that want the towns to only allow contractors with unionized workforces to bid on jobs. Unions don't get fined for unsafe work practices - companies do. Unless it's posturing for the newspapers, there is no value in safety. Now - benefits arising from working unsafely ... that's something they all want!
<font color=blue>average UAW worker made $60,000 last year with overtime</font color=blue> Can you point me to where you got that information? The union-friendly media here in mid-Michigan frequently make the claim that the average UAW wage (in Michigan) is $100,000 (and I'm sure overtime, if it's ever available, is included in that figure).
I keep referring to a $100k janitor and I probably should amend that to be fork truck driver, since he's the example I always think of. There was one of those "isn't this a wonderful world" articles in the paper several years ago about a gentleman in Detroit. He's nearing retirement, has a 9th grade education, and drives a fork truck at the Ford plant in (Dearborn?). For the past 3 years, he has made in excess of $100,000 each year (yes, with overtime) and lives in a simple one room aparatment ... using the money to provide scholarships to poor black youths. If you're really interested, I'm sure I could find that in Lexus/Nexas as it was reported in both the local papers we get - reprinted from the Detroit Free Press. Since I drove a fork truck - for $300 a month, when I was young, that story has managed to stick in my mind.
<font color=blue> I heard it somewhere,but if you can prove it to me </font color=blue> I'm sorry, but you see I have a real problem with that statement. We are both using "hearsay" and I'm not sure why the burdon of proof lies more on me than on you. I watched the proceedings on the whole "every tire made for the Exploder is unsafe" with interest, and the reports stated many times that the tires came from different plants, and that other tires were involved, and that it was a design flaw ... and I believe about 10% of it. If you want "proof", I would suggest that you review the files from the NHTSA archives ... all the findings are recorded online. My point was that workers made the tires ... not some CEO sitting in a posh office somewhere ... and therefore should be AT LEAST as much to blame.
Finally, let's youch on <font color=blue>There is 2 sides to every coin,that is why they say negotiate and bargain in good faith. </font color=blue>
That's one of my favorite union phrases. Have you ever noticed ... I mean really noticed ... that the union always accuses management of that ... but management is not allowed to accuse the union leaders? By the way, since you brought up a Clinton cronie as an example of businessmen ... can we also look at how many union leaders have been convicted of Mafia activities? Hey, how about that New York Transit union ... the one with the no strike clause ... that was going to strike a couple of weeks ago?
OK ... I'll get off my anti-union haywagon for now ... can you tell that I'm still annoyed about the incident back in 1977? And my wife's car (and mental scars)?
I have quite a few friends here (mostly in the Goldwing bike club) who are union (or retired union) and I think they're fine people. People usually are. Mobs are not ... and people become mobs at time.
If you want to trade proof - actual facts gleaned from respected (by both of us) sources, I'd be happy to continue.
regards
pete
Trev
Platinum Member
- Joined
- May 24, 2002
- Messages
- 918
- Location
- Williamson, NY (near Rochester)
- Tractor
- Currently tractor-less
Bird, your mail delivery story reminds me of my own first "non-kid" job. We were working 12-hour shifts in a factory, running parts for big gas turbines through an oven on a conveyer belt. One college kid on one end feeding them onto the belt, and another at the other end taking them off. Averaged about 130 degrees by that oven, and 12 hours is a long time to be on your feet. But we were young.
Anyway, one day we notice some guy standing there with a stopwatch.. and we though "Ut oh, we must be going too slow or something." I didn't see how that was possible, as I was putting the parts on the belt right next to each other.. the only way to have gone faster would have been to speed up the belt! Since it was such a mindless job, the only way we got any kicks out of it was by trying to do it to perfection.
Of course you see what's coming. We were told we were making all the other guys look bad and to slow the bleep down!!
Sigh. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
Anyway, one day we notice some guy standing there with a stopwatch.. and we though "Ut oh, we must be going too slow or something." I didn't see how that was possible, as I was putting the parts on the belt right next to each other.. the only way to have gone faster would have been to speed up the belt! Since it was such a mindless job, the only way we got any kicks out of it was by trying to do it to perfection.
Of course you see what's coming. We were told we were making all the other guys look bad and to slow the bleep down!!
Sigh. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
Hello all, it's me Putty- no I don't believe in socialism, I am not angry at the world and I do believe in an education , I am saving for my kids education now becuase I want them to have a better shot than I did. Cowboydoc , my post said I come from a religous background not that I was a deeply religious man, my post was coming from the standpoint of people wanting to class themselves rather than the class of people, I do believe a great number of the people who "have" deserve it- there is nothing wrong with getting compensated for real work or real qualities , I do however have a problem with overconfident people who take pleasure in classing themselves thereby demanding a hierarchy. Hazmat , I cannot just "willy nilly" go to school, I have three kids and my obligation is to them not my own dreams. My father had to drop out of school in the seventh grade do to my grandfather getting sick and being he was the oldest ,he had to run the dairy farm, he is a genious as far as I am concerned -I do believe he can make a car part or a kitchen appliance out of a couple of tree branches and some Bagbaum,/w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif that is where the- wondering what an educated man is?"comment comes from, and I have yet to see him class himself or anyone else that is for that matter, that is what the "educated" do, when I see a person throw the " NON- EDUCATED " phrase like a knife it tends to cut right through me also. On to the topic of unions, first off whoever said a janitor makes 108,000 a year I have to say I don't believe it, are you sure you are not talking about the head janitor responsible for a staff of fifty, or are those numbers just a flat lie ,like big corperations tend to do -you know how they do- they take a persons yearly income +insurance+all tools they use up+any and all benefits+lights they use while working+toilet paper they use while on the job and come up with a yearly income, after all ,these are things that they give and are considered income-manegement is not stupid, they know how to work it. My father is 65 and crippled do to working too hard at his "cushie" union job, BigDave , and others I have heard storys from , you say their job was easy but physical- anyone can do a physical job when they are young and fresh but do it for thirty years and you will see why these people think that they are owed something- What is the sky value of being worked so hard by a co.as to cripple a man, do you think they are paid enough? Cowboydoc, surely you have heard of factory workers syndrome? Whats it worth? Do you think they can't make a janitors position so demanding or so stressfull that they are worth 100,000 a year? Management are'nt stupid people, they don't lose , you can bet they get their moneys worth, they can make a job as stressful as a doctors, easily -these are'nt stupid people, they are'nt paying them that amount for nothing. Finally I can't imagine why anyone would try to justify a CEO's salary, I would rather owe a janitor for thier real work than a CEO for their overconfidence.
Wingnut
Veteran Member
I know what you mean about the hours .... some days it's annoying to work 12 hours when you get paid for 8 ... but it's so satisfying to complete another impossible task.
We're forming quite a mutual admiration society here, aren't we? I guess that we are the sum of our experiences ... and those of us that choose to have MANY experiences seem to come to the same basic conclusions.
I completely agree with your assessment of the problem with society today: entitlements. I can use my own family for an example. I gave my basic outline already ... I earned my way up the ladder ... and I enjoy the perks I've now got. My younger brother, on the other hand, has this entitlement problem. He sees me with a new car, new motorcycle, house with a pool and hot tub, etc, etc ... and he can't understand why he can't have those things too .... and he wants them now. His solution? Well, having left the Canadian Armed Forces, where he was a clerk and moving the wrong way on the promotion list (he was a corporal and had been moved down to 625 on the list for promotion to sergeant) and marrying a Dutch girl, he moves to Holland and lands a job at a help desk. He outlasts his counterparts (mostly because he's learning dutch and therefore can't compete with them for better jobs) and gets appointed team leader (good for him). Then he starts applying for management jobs ... and getting interviews. And jobs. Of course, he never lasts more than 6 months (they have weird labor laws in Europe ... you don't get "probation", you get a short term contract - 6 months - and if they don't want you they don't renew. After 4 of those jobs he starts to feel he is a manager (we're talking "made it out of high school by the skin of his teeth") and is applying for higher jobs. He really thinks he's "entitled" ... because I have a new bike and a new car ... and he wants one too. I'd love to see his "resume" ... but of course he's never shown it to me. Since one of the companies he was working for was Dell .... he must have had some interesting stuff on it.
Of course ... balloons lose air and now he's wifeless, back in Canada, and learning to be a ... truck driver ....
Sigh.
I've talked to him over the years, explained what courses I've took to learn things, encouraged him to read periodicals, newspaper, texts, go to seminars, get involved with professional associations. Instead, he's seen every new movie thats come out, is on intimate terms with every viseo game in the arcades, and is on first name basis with all the goirls behind the counters at the viseo renatl shops.
Sigh.
Entitlement.
Oh well ... although I am my brothers keeper, I keep in mind that - hey, I enjoy life! If I didn't want to, there's nothing (except my pride) forcing me to take my laptop home, plugging it in and doing a couple more hours analysis instead of watching reruns of CSI. (I can't get a decent cuppa here at work ... they use vacuum packed Maxwell House ... and at home I get freshly ground ... so I tend to go home after 10-11 hours and do the rest from my home office).
Man, this is a marvellous country where some unambitious kid that starts out by stocking shelves can end up with a home office with 5 computers (that he built himself) networked together and making life just so much FUN. Can you imagine another time or place wherein all of us on this board could (or would want to) interact to any degree whatsoever? It's like that old time general store where we're all sitting around a virtual pickle barrel and passing around the combined experience of the biggest, most fabulous neighborhood one could imagine.
As the kids used to say "kewl"
We're forming quite a mutual admiration society here, aren't we? I guess that we are the sum of our experiences ... and those of us that choose to have MANY experiences seem to come to the same basic conclusions.
I completely agree with your assessment of the problem with society today: entitlements. I can use my own family for an example. I gave my basic outline already ... I earned my way up the ladder ... and I enjoy the perks I've now got. My younger brother, on the other hand, has this entitlement problem. He sees me with a new car, new motorcycle, house with a pool and hot tub, etc, etc ... and he can't understand why he can't have those things too .... and he wants them now. His solution? Well, having left the Canadian Armed Forces, where he was a clerk and moving the wrong way on the promotion list (he was a corporal and had been moved down to 625 on the list for promotion to sergeant) and marrying a Dutch girl, he moves to Holland and lands a job at a help desk. He outlasts his counterparts (mostly because he's learning dutch and therefore can't compete with them for better jobs) and gets appointed team leader (good for him). Then he starts applying for management jobs ... and getting interviews. And jobs. Of course, he never lasts more than 6 months (they have weird labor laws in Europe ... you don't get "probation", you get a short term contract - 6 months - and if they don't want you they don't renew. After 4 of those jobs he starts to feel he is a manager (we're talking "made it out of high school by the skin of his teeth") and is applying for higher jobs. He really thinks he's "entitled" ... because I have a new bike and a new car ... and he wants one too. I'd love to see his "resume" ... but of course he's never shown it to me. Since one of the companies he was working for was Dell .... he must have had some interesting stuff on it.
Of course ... balloons lose air and now he's wifeless, back in Canada, and learning to be a ... truck driver ....
Sigh.
I've talked to him over the years, explained what courses I've took to learn things, encouraged him to read periodicals, newspaper, texts, go to seminars, get involved with professional associations. Instead, he's seen every new movie thats come out, is on intimate terms with every viseo game in the arcades, and is on first name basis with all the goirls behind the counters at the viseo renatl shops.
Sigh.
Entitlement.
Oh well ... although I am my brothers keeper, I keep in mind that - hey, I enjoy life! If I didn't want to, there's nothing (except my pride) forcing me to take my laptop home, plugging it in and doing a couple more hours analysis instead of watching reruns of CSI. (I can't get a decent cuppa here at work ... they use vacuum packed Maxwell House ... and at home I get freshly ground ... so I tend to go home after 10-11 hours and do the rest from my home office).
Man, this is a marvellous country where some unambitious kid that starts out by stocking shelves can end up with a home office with 5 computers (that he built himself) networked together and making life just so much FUN. Can you imagine another time or place wherein all of us on this board could (or would want to) interact to any degree whatsoever? It's like that old time general store where we're all sitting around a virtual pickle barrel and passing around the combined experience of the biggest, most fabulous neighborhood one could imagine.
As the kids used to say "kewl"
Wingnut
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>of course PORK = POLITICS and Byrd isn't the only one</font color=blue>
nope, he ain't the only one ... but, man, he is the best, ain't he?
/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif
and he always makes sure it's the Byrd [insert your favorite monument here]
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
nope, he ain't the only one ... but, man, he is the best, ain't he?
/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif
and he always makes sure it's the Byrd [insert your favorite monument here]
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Wingnut
Veteran Member
My story isn't much different ... when I was working on the dock after school and overnight on the weekends ... my job was unloading trailers and reloading trailers. A rig would come in from Calgary and all the stuff would be unloaded and then loaded onto trucks going to Grand Prairie, Cold Lake, Saskatoon, etc. Yep ... mindless as you can get .... so I made a game out of it ... how can I load these boxes to I get the optimum use out of the trailer space. A win, to me, was a "row" where the boxes has no spaces between them.
Of course ... it wan't very long before the foreman (my best friend's dad) took me aside and informed me that I was "trying too hard" and that the others were getting upset because I was working too hard ... and that I was breaking the law by not taking the coffee breaks that were assigned.
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Of course ... it wan't very long before the foreman (my best friend's dad) took me aside and informed me that I was "trying too hard" and that the others were getting upset because I was working too hard ... and that I was breaking the law by not taking the coffee breaks that were assigned.
/w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif
Chuck52
Veteran Member
Fellas, I sure have enjoyed the lfe stories. Some of you should write books, if not for publication, at least for your children. I wish my folks had....they had much more interesting lives than I have led. As this thread seems to have devolved into a discussion of the value or lack thereof of unions, I'll kick in my take on the subject. I've never belonged to a union and strongly support the notion of open shops. I wouldn't want to be in the position of having to join a union in order to work. However, it's pretty clear that unions have contributed to the quality of life of the working man in this country. Even the most adamant union haters amongst you seem to admit at least this "historic" value, and save your calumny for the more recent and obvious excesses of the descendants of those unions. The question then becomes, in the absence of unions would some companies not be likely to revert to the behaviour which originally spawned the union movement? Would government control be preferable? Should we trust in the better nature of the owners to see to the well being of their employees? For small businesses that can work fine, but I've noticed that larger companies that try to provide anything special for their employees often make the news.
Chuck
Chuck
Trev
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Well, since we're telling work stories here.. folks might get a kick out of this one.
I was working for NYS, managing a big VMS computer system with a few thousand users. I saw a need for the ability of all these folks to communicate, share information, and so on. It needed to be simple, easy to do, require no training, and they have to be able to do it with lots of flexibility.. e.g., some things posted should only be seen by management, others for general distribution, and so on.
So I borry a terminal and modem from work (this was the old days), take it home, and dial in each night to write a program to do all of this. I would usually spend half the night on it.. and it took months before it was perfect.
I gave it to them, and they loved it. It became used throughout the state, and took the place of a number of programs they were having to license.. saving them about $250,000 / year in just licensing fees. And it enabled lots of initiatives that they figure save the state at least a few million / year.
So my boss and a few other guys submitted my name for the Governor's Productivity Award. Well, it turns out that the gov's office has this policy of giving the winner of this award 10% of whatever it is they saved the state. I got the word from an insider bud that the committee had decided there was no way they were going to give me a prize roughly equivalent to winning the lottery... so I got a nice letter from them saying thanks, and please feel free to submit any further projects for evaluation. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I dunno why they didn't just put a cap on the award.. say a max of $500 or whatever. It would have looked good on a resume to have a productivity award from the Governor. But that's how it works.. and I still laugh when I think about it. My payoff though is that the program is still in use, still saving tons of money, and I get the fun of seeing something I created being used and enjoyed by so many people. If you find work you love, the rewards are built-in.
I was working for NYS, managing a big VMS computer system with a few thousand users. I saw a need for the ability of all these folks to communicate, share information, and so on. It needed to be simple, easy to do, require no training, and they have to be able to do it with lots of flexibility.. e.g., some things posted should only be seen by management, others for general distribution, and so on.
So I borry a terminal and modem from work (this was the old days), take it home, and dial in each night to write a program to do all of this. I would usually spend half the night on it.. and it took months before it was perfect.
I gave it to them, and they loved it. It became used throughout the state, and took the place of a number of programs they were having to license.. saving them about $250,000 / year in just licensing fees. And it enabled lots of initiatives that they figure save the state at least a few million / year.
So my boss and a few other guys submitted my name for the Governor's Productivity Award. Well, it turns out that the gov's office has this policy of giving the winner of this award 10% of whatever it is they saved the state. I got the word from an insider bud that the committee had decided there was no way they were going to give me a prize roughly equivalent to winning the lottery... so I got a nice letter from them saying thanks, and please feel free to submit any further projects for evaluation. /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif I dunno why they didn't just put a cap on the award.. say a max of $500 or whatever. It would have looked good on a resume to have a productivity award from the Governor. But that's how it works.. and I still laugh when I think about it. My payoff though is that the program is still in use, still saving tons of money, and I get the fun of seeing something I created being used and enjoyed by so many people. If you find work you love, the rewards are built-in.
cowboydoc
Super Member
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I think you better reread your post Putty. You said that professionals don't work hard. To quote you, "It would amaze you if you really knew how little the doctors, lawyers, polotitians, CEO's really do work. Yes, I know they go to work for eight or maybe ten hours a day but if you saw how much work they get done would make the GM janitors want a raise" That was what I had a problem with. Yes I still stand behind my original post about salaries, earning your way, education, and ambition. That's great that your grandfather can do all of those things, so can mine. But when it comes to salaries and such you get back what you put in from the end product! What value does this society place on what you do and what are they willing to pay you for that. We all know going in approximately what others in our job field are making. It's usually no surprise there.
Take someone like Wingnut or any of the other guys, myself included. We all started out doing back breaking work to rise up. But the difference is you know that kind of work is not going to get you anywhere and it can't go on forever. You start to look for new ways to do things. You are persistent. If it doesn't work one place you take a chance and do something different. Whether that is going to school, developing an idea, making yourself a self-made man, etc. It doesn't matter. But you don't just sit back and go and do your job everyday and never contribute anything more. You don't make excuses and say I'm too old, I don't have enough money, I have a family, etc. etc. I'm not saying those things aren't important. What I am saying is the majority of people that do make it figure out a way to make all of those things work. In our house there is no such word as can't. I have taught my girls that from the time they could understand words. The other lesson I teach them is to make sure they are responsible for the decisions that they make. If they do something wrong I make sure that they know why it's wrong and I explain to them the consequences in life because of those actions. You don't blame your life, your problems, or your decisions on your circumstances. You made the choices to get you where you are in life good or bad.
I'm sorry your father is crippled but that is certainly not the corporations fault. They gave him a job to do and he did it. They weren't there holding a gun to his head the whole time I'm sure. He had a choice when he was in his mid-30's or 40's and knew his body was breaking down to get out. Don't give me the spill about having kids, etc. etc. Maybe he would have had to work full-time and go to school part-time or became a journeyman, or something like what wingnut did working his way up. There was one guy in my class in school that had a family and was making his way through school. We had cadaver lab at night and he was in my group. Every night at 7:30 he left for 45 minutes to go home and put his kids to bed and read them a story. When we all left he stayed to study some more while his kids were sleeping. After that he went to work for four hours at UPS throwing boxes all night. He went on like that all through school. He slept four hours a night or less. He was there at night for his kids and he was there in the morning when they got up. That's courage. That guy deserves all the success in the world and he is a fine doctor now and doing very well. My point is that a person has nothing to blame but themselves for where they are. Everyone wants to blame something or someone else because they don't have what they want. You mention your kids as a reason why you can't go back to school. Well can't isn't the word. You choose not to. You could go back to school. You could work part-time, your wife part-time, etc. When I was in school there were many people there with families. It can be done you just have to do it. That is the one consistent thing I see among just about every person that has this class envy or whatever you want to call it. They all make up excuses of why they couldn't be where someone else was.
Regarding workers and their conditions I'm alot on the companies side here. I'm the company doctor for many big corporations here where we live. When I see workers comp. repetitive injuries, etc. it is usually a deconditioned person. They are grossly overweight, then don't exercise, they don't eat right, etc. Then when you explain the problem and they are going to have to exercise, eat right, lose weight, etc. they don't want to have any part of that. How can the company be responsible for the condition of it's workers? Most companies even pay for health club memberships or at least a percentage of them. I asked one HR person who is a patient how many people take advantage. She told me only 10% take advantage. At that same company we started an exercise routine before their shift and every two hours we designed exercises to counteract the repetitive stress. They got together and threatened a lawsuit if we didn't stop with the exercises. That's your biggest reason for people becoming crippled. It's not the job it's the fact that people eat poorly and don't take care of their bodies.
It all boils down to having personal responsibility and taking responsibility for what you choose.
As far as class of people there is no such thing. There is only one person to answer to there. When you stand before God and are judged it won't matter if you were a janitor or any other profession. What matters is what you did as a person.
As far as life here on Earth goes and esp. in the US sorry to say but there are working classes. It has nothing to do with how good or better or worse one person is over another. It has do with the way that a person is compensated. A person chooses this. That's what is so great about this country is that you can choose. You don't have to work a factory job or anything else for that matter. You choose. Nobody but yourself, at least in this country, makes any of those decisions for you. No matter what the circumstances, good or bad, it is personal choices that got you there. Each and everyone of us is completely responsible for his own actions and exactly where they are right now in life because of those choices.
Take someone like Wingnut or any of the other guys, myself included. We all started out doing back breaking work to rise up. But the difference is you know that kind of work is not going to get you anywhere and it can't go on forever. You start to look for new ways to do things. You are persistent. If it doesn't work one place you take a chance and do something different. Whether that is going to school, developing an idea, making yourself a self-made man, etc. It doesn't matter. But you don't just sit back and go and do your job everyday and never contribute anything more. You don't make excuses and say I'm too old, I don't have enough money, I have a family, etc. etc. I'm not saying those things aren't important. What I am saying is the majority of people that do make it figure out a way to make all of those things work. In our house there is no such word as can't. I have taught my girls that from the time they could understand words. The other lesson I teach them is to make sure they are responsible for the decisions that they make. If they do something wrong I make sure that they know why it's wrong and I explain to them the consequences in life because of those actions. You don't blame your life, your problems, or your decisions on your circumstances. You made the choices to get you where you are in life good or bad.
I'm sorry your father is crippled but that is certainly not the corporations fault. They gave him a job to do and he did it. They weren't there holding a gun to his head the whole time I'm sure. He had a choice when he was in his mid-30's or 40's and knew his body was breaking down to get out. Don't give me the spill about having kids, etc. etc. Maybe he would have had to work full-time and go to school part-time or became a journeyman, or something like what wingnut did working his way up. There was one guy in my class in school that had a family and was making his way through school. We had cadaver lab at night and he was in my group. Every night at 7:30 he left for 45 minutes to go home and put his kids to bed and read them a story. When we all left he stayed to study some more while his kids were sleeping. After that he went to work for four hours at UPS throwing boxes all night. He went on like that all through school. He slept four hours a night or less. He was there at night for his kids and he was there in the morning when they got up. That's courage. That guy deserves all the success in the world and he is a fine doctor now and doing very well. My point is that a person has nothing to blame but themselves for where they are. Everyone wants to blame something or someone else because they don't have what they want. You mention your kids as a reason why you can't go back to school. Well can't isn't the word. You choose not to. You could go back to school. You could work part-time, your wife part-time, etc. When I was in school there were many people there with families. It can be done you just have to do it. That is the one consistent thing I see among just about every person that has this class envy or whatever you want to call it. They all make up excuses of why they couldn't be where someone else was.
Regarding workers and their conditions I'm alot on the companies side here. I'm the company doctor for many big corporations here where we live. When I see workers comp. repetitive injuries, etc. it is usually a deconditioned person. They are grossly overweight, then don't exercise, they don't eat right, etc. Then when you explain the problem and they are going to have to exercise, eat right, lose weight, etc. they don't want to have any part of that. How can the company be responsible for the condition of it's workers? Most companies even pay for health club memberships or at least a percentage of them. I asked one HR person who is a patient how many people take advantage. She told me only 10% take advantage. At that same company we started an exercise routine before their shift and every two hours we designed exercises to counteract the repetitive stress. They got together and threatened a lawsuit if we didn't stop with the exercises. That's your biggest reason for people becoming crippled. It's not the job it's the fact that people eat poorly and don't take care of their bodies.
It all boils down to having personal responsibility and taking responsibility for what you choose.
As far as class of people there is no such thing. There is only one person to answer to there. When you stand before God and are judged it won't matter if you were a janitor or any other profession. What matters is what you did as a person.
As far as life here on Earth goes and esp. in the US sorry to say but there are working classes. It has nothing to do with how good or better or worse one person is over another. It has do with the way that a person is compensated. A person chooses this. That's what is so great about this country is that you can choose. You don't have to work a factory job or anything else for that matter. You choose. Nobody but yourself, at least in this country, makes any of those decisions for you. No matter what the circumstances, good or bad, it is personal choices that got you there. Each and everyone of us is completely responsible for his own actions and exactly where they are right now in life because of those choices.
WVBill
Veteran Member
<font color=blue>"If you find work you love, the rewards are built-in.'</font color=blue>
Trev: I see you understand <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.lifeworktransitions.com/exercises/part1/mazlow.html> Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs </A>
Trev: I see you understand <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.lifeworktransitions.com/exercises/part1/mazlow.html> Mazlow's Hierarchy of Needs </A>
PitbullMidwest
Platinum Member
<font color=blue>...policy of giving the winner of this award 10% of whatever it is they saved the state</font color=blue>
A friend's dad worked for a company back in the '70s that had a similar program. If you submitted a process change that was implimented you received the first month's savings as a bonus. He received several bonuses but the biggest was $52,000 /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif.
BTW, he wasn't an engineer or anything like that, he just had a gift of being able to see how he could improve the job he was assigned to.
A friend's dad worked for a company back in the '70s that had a similar program. If you submitted a process change that was implimented you received the first month's savings as a bonus. He received several bonuses but the biggest was $52,000 /w3tcompact/icons/shocked.gif.
BTW, he wasn't an engineer or anything like that, he just had a gift of being able to see how he could improve the job he was assigned to.
putty-
<font color=blue>Management are'nt stupid people, they don't lose , you can bet they get their moneys worth, they can make a job as stressful as a doctors, easily...</font color=blue>
Yea, I could see where figuring out what type of drain cleaner to use and potentially getting fired over making the wrong choice is EASILY as stressful as worrying constantly about having someone else’s life and well being in your hands (along with worrying about lawsuits unless things "work out.") /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
<font color=blue>...I can't imagine why anyone would try to justify a CEO's salary, I would rather owe a janitor for their real work than a CEO for their overconfidence. </font color=blue>
I can also see why making that drain cleaner decision and then breaking out the plunger is worth MORE money than doing research and making strategic decisions that, if the wrong choice is made, may result in the unemployment of thousands, bankruptcy of the company, loss of multi-millions of dollars to all your investors, and criminal charges against you. Sure, I can see that. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
This all depends on what you are classifying as “stressful” and “real work.” You come across as one who very much believes that management is out to “walk on the backs of the ‘little’ people” and who believes that physical labor is the only thing that justifies salary and creates job “stress.”
Contrary to some of your statements in your last post, it’s obvious (to me at least) that you have NO respect for those who worked hard to climb the proverbial ladder. In your mind college was a “no stress” time and those who "worked hard" to take a different path than you didn’t do any real work at all. (I point to your post directed toward Cowboydoc where you mention eating ramen isn’t any big deal.)
You probably won’t believe me, but I can tell you with quite a bit of experience in this area, that your opinion is not fact. Yes, there are some bad CEO/management types out there, but I’d be curious what decisions you’d make, how stressful you’d think it was, and how much you believed was “fair” in your compensation package if you were burdened with that responsibility.
You go on to complain about the arrogance of all the managment types out there - the whole "class warfare" thing. My question - how many CEOs, CFO's CIO's, CTO's, CAO's, etc. do you know personally? I mean actually have sat down and had dinner/in depth conversations with - not just shook their hand at some party or such. My bet - none. Why? Because I believe if you knew some of these folks on a personal level instead of simply seeing them driving a nice car, or "networking" with others, you actually might be friends with them.
Contrary to what you imply, not all executives are snobs. You wouldn’t “disown” your kids if they use that education you are helping to provide them and climb to an executive position somewhere down the line - I mean, you don’t believe they would turn in to “bad people” or you wouldn’t encourage them to advance, right? Well, why does that perspective only apply to your offspring and nobody else’s???
The way I see it, a lot of folks (Cowboy doc, Wingnut, etc.) are complaining about when people feel they are entitled to things - their message seems to be one of “if you want something, put forth the effort required to get it and quit whining.” Your message along with some other posts seems to complain that if someone is an executive/management position, they skated through life on their proverbial "good looks" and are "rotten people." e.g. “Life isn’t fair! The ‘big boys’ get paid to much and don’t deserve it! I am entitled to something, because unlike them, I'm a good person!!!”
Maybe if folks stopped being jealous and constantly looking at what their neighbor has vs. them and used all that anger and energy of how “life isn’t fair” in a positive manner instead of a negative one, then they could create a better standard of living for themselves and in the process, find themselves happier because they are focused on improving themselves instead of tearing down others.
<font color=blue>Management are'nt stupid people, they don't lose , you can bet they get their moneys worth, they can make a job as stressful as a doctors, easily...</font color=blue>
Yea, I could see where figuring out what type of drain cleaner to use and potentially getting fired over making the wrong choice is EASILY as stressful as worrying constantly about having someone else’s life and well being in your hands (along with worrying about lawsuits unless things "work out.") /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
<font color=blue>...I can't imagine why anyone would try to justify a CEO's salary, I would rather owe a janitor for their real work than a CEO for their overconfidence. </font color=blue>
I can also see why making that drain cleaner decision and then breaking out the plunger is worth MORE money than doing research and making strategic decisions that, if the wrong choice is made, may result in the unemployment of thousands, bankruptcy of the company, loss of multi-millions of dollars to all your investors, and criminal charges against you. Sure, I can see that. /w3tcompact/icons/eyes.gif
This all depends on what you are classifying as “stressful” and “real work.” You come across as one who very much believes that management is out to “walk on the backs of the ‘little’ people” and who believes that physical labor is the only thing that justifies salary and creates job “stress.”
Contrary to some of your statements in your last post, it’s obvious (to me at least) that you have NO respect for those who worked hard to climb the proverbial ladder. In your mind college was a “no stress” time and those who "worked hard" to take a different path than you didn’t do any real work at all. (I point to your post directed toward Cowboydoc where you mention eating ramen isn’t any big deal.)
You probably won’t believe me, but I can tell you with quite a bit of experience in this area, that your opinion is not fact. Yes, there are some bad CEO/management types out there, but I’d be curious what decisions you’d make, how stressful you’d think it was, and how much you believed was “fair” in your compensation package if you were burdened with that responsibility.
You go on to complain about the arrogance of all the managment types out there - the whole "class warfare" thing. My question - how many CEOs, CFO's CIO's, CTO's, CAO's, etc. do you know personally? I mean actually have sat down and had dinner/in depth conversations with - not just shook their hand at some party or such. My bet - none. Why? Because I believe if you knew some of these folks on a personal level instead of simply seeing them driving a nice car, or "networking" with others, you actually might be friends with them.
Contrary to what you imply, not all executives are snobs. You wouldn’t “disown” your kids if they use that education you are helping to provide them and climb to an executive position somewhere down the line - I mean, you don’t believe they would turn in to “bad people” or you wouldn’t encourage them to advance, right? Well, why does that perspective only apply to your offspring and nobody else’s???
The way I see it, a lot of folks (Cowboy doc, Wingnut, etc.) are complaining about when people feel they are entitled to things - their message seems to be one of “if you want something, put forth the effort required to get it and quit whining.” Your message along with some other posts seems to complain that if someone is an executive/management position, they skated through life on their proverbial "good looks" and are "rotten people." e.g. “Life isn’t fair! The ‘big boys’ get paid to much and don’t deserve it! I am entitled to something, because unlike them, I'm a good person!!!”
Maybe if folks stopped being jealous and constantly looking at what their neighbor has vs. them and used all that anger and energy of how “life isn’t fair” in a positive manner instead of a negative one, then they could create a better standard of living for themselves and in the process, find themselves happier because they are focused on improving themselves instead of tearing down others.
