Our Dependencies

[cowboydoc]

Just for the record Wingnut I think your education is just as valuable. My grandfather never had an education past sixth grade and yet he has been tremendously successful. He has been successful because he worked 16 hours a day his whole life. Like yourself whatever he needed to know he taught himself, either through books or the school of hard knocks. He never got a handout either but sure gave alot to people. Even if he was late for something and someone was stranded along the road he'd stop and help them. I completely respect men like him and yourself. They never walked off a job or threatened to strike for more money. They just did what they had to do to be better. My hero is and always has been my grandfather. If everyone was as self-motivated and ambitious as people like him and yourself this country wouldn't be where it is today. Something for nothing just doesn't happen, but more and more everyday that's what people want.

 

[Egon]

Was that northern railway along the Smoky?

Egon

 

[Wingnut]

yep ... the ARR (or Alberta Resources Railroad). Made it to Rodman pretty quickly but got a "little" drunk one night, had a disagreement with the strawboss and quit. Hey, I was young (17) ... I've learned not to be so quick.
But, like all experience, it was good experience.

 

[Wingnut]

/w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif
coming from you, Richard, that means a lot. Thanks.

I find it truly, truly sad that this country was built by folks like your grandfather ... and is being destroyed by people like ... oops, that'll lead to politics.

Life is what you make it .... and enjoyable if you want it to be. Even my bad days are good days!

For those of you that haven't quite caught on to what Richard, Dave and I (and others) have been saying .... if you want more than 100% ... you need to give more than 100%. I don't care if we're talking work, church, school, or sports. If you want to stand out ... you'd better stand up!

OK ... enough soapbox for January ....

 

[RanchMan]

Cowboydoc & Wingnut-

I just couldn't contain myself - both posts (CD - regarding how much professionals REALLY work and WN- how it isn't "right" for society to make everyone get paid/live the to the same standard) were truly EXCELLENT! Right on the mark, bull’s-eye!!! /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif

Both posts reflect my "Buck up and deal with it!" sentiment I had put over on CBN in the economy thread. I think that lots of folks simply don’t understand (or refuse to /w3tcompact/icons/sad.gif) that a great number of the “haves” in our society made extreme sacrifices and started life very much as “have nots.” Call it class envy, work ethic, whatever. A lot of those who put forth the effort required to get where they are resent (and IMO, rightfully so) those who expect the same to simply be handed over to them.

If someone wants to be a janitor (or whatever else that pays a low wage job) - and they’re happy doing it - GREAT! I have no problem with the person or the profession. But I don’t care how good a janitor someone is, they don’t deserve that $100,000/year salary.

I'd add some more, but quite frankly, why would I want to put chrome do-dads all over your solid gold posts? /w3tcompact/icons/wink.gif Thanks for being so eloquent - and right.

 

[Egon]

I spent some time there too but was working for one of the major contractors.
Later I got to work on part of the road going in to Grande Cache.
It was lovely country. At that time there were sheep, goats and wild horses on the river hills at all times of the day. Didn't take more than six mounths to change all that. Used to fish some of the creeks in the evenings.
Did you get to ride the river on the jet boats?

Egon

 

[utahmule]

I agree wholeheartedly with what Wingnut, CDoc and others have said. Education and hard work come in all shapes and sizes. I'm a Civil Engineer, with a Degree, and some of the best education I've received was from my field experience.

I also agree that most engineers would benefit a bunch from getting out into the field at the onset of their careers. When I started out as a field eng. for a large construction company, I had a great foreman that taught me things every bit as valuable as what I learned in school. Later on, some of my fellow engineers were designing site plans with grades calculated out to 5 or 6 places past the decimal. They would go out the a site to check on the work, complain that the grades didn't match to 1/100,000 of a foot. They were laughed off the site.

It works both ways, though. The crew foreman where I am now has a bitter comtempt for anyone with more than a high school education. This includes trade schools, etc. We all have bits of wisdom to offer to each other. One kind of education is not better than another, as long as its applicable.

I'm another college boy who has worked a paying job since I was 15. Stable boy, landscaping, fry cook, waiter, stage hand. I remember, at my first office job, working a SAT. morning(one of many). The boss was in a good mood and offered to buy breakfast for the ten of us. He gave the secretary a C note and the keys to his caddy and told her to take oreders and run to McDs. She was offended and said it was not her job and beneath her. I jumped up and offered to do it.

Work is work, whether it's blue collar, white collar or whatever. And yes, some people make more than others. If you're not happy do something about it. The last three job changes I've dropped 40% in pay, and am happier. I try to do what it takes to make me happy and try not to worry about what I can't control.

Sorry for the length, and incoherence.

 

[utahmule]

Have any of you guys read "Atlas Shrugged", by Ayn Rand? Very relevant to this discussion.

 

[Wingnut]

Yep, mustangs, Dall sheep, black bears .... and an unbelievable number of underground wasps nests. My most vivid memories of that country is 1) the day I stepped into a wasps nest and had 48 stings on my legs (Camp 8), and 2) 2 weeks later (Camp 7) when I got s single sting ... 1/2 inch over my right eye ... swollen shut for a week and the worst migraine I ever had!
Beautiful, beautiful country!
The river boats (jet boats) on the Little Smokey were after my time there ... I was there in '67, I believe.
My dad was working in ... and later running .... Camp 7 (CNR helped him get his degree "back").
Liking that country is probably what helped me find my farm .... Wasn't much north of me in Thorhild except boreal forest to the arctic. Love that wilderness!

For those of you that have never seen the Little Smokey country - west of the Rockies and north of Jasper ... much of it is still unspoiled wilderness with a fair bit of muskeg. We kept our drinks cold in the summer by lifting 1-2 feet of moss and putting the drinks in the permafrost underneath.

 

[Wingnut]

Eric ... just where do you think I learned my politics? I finished Atlas Shrugged the first time when I was 12, and The Fountainhead the first time when I was 13. I've read each one at least 3 times so far. Atlas Shrugged is as dry as a book can possibly get (I'm sure there's a couple of Galt's speeches that I STILL have not gotten through) but should be required reading at all universities to counter the decidedly left-wing slant of most professors.
I immediately thought of the book when that fire happened in the tunnel in Switzerland.
I'd say history has proved Ayn to be more of a clairvoyant than a writer (not to say that she was a bad writer).

pete

 

[utahmule]

Pete,

You're right on the mark. After four reads, I've still never made it through the radio speech towards the end. Even that can't take away from the power of her writings.

Every time the tax cuts for the rich comes up, I get the urge to chuck it and flip burgers at a roadside diner. Let somebody else subsidize things.

 

[Wingnut]

Read you loud and clear. Everytime I hear the rabid idiots scream about tax cuts for the rich .... it think of two things. One is how 1 out of every five bucks on my paycheque goes to the federal or state government (and we won't talk about hidden taxes, property taxes, sales taxes) ... and the other is how the liberal idiots that cry about the tax cuts insulate themselves from taxes with their foundations, trusts, and tax-free perks and salaries. Oh, and how my taxes go to fund all their pet projects ... like another landmark in West Virgina for the wunder-Byrd.

 

[ejb]

>>DO YOU THINK IT IS THE JANITORS WAGES THAT GOT THE UNITED STATES IN TROUBLE ???

Hey Wingnut, let me play devils advocate for a while (and just for the record I agree that $100K is absurd for a janitor to get paid)....

So here goes:

If it is OK for a CEO and other executives, managers etc to play the game (within the law) to maximize there compensation from the company, whi isn't OK for the janitor to do the same? If a buch of partners got toether, formed a firm and offered a service to the public they needed, than we would all defend there right to charge what they want and reap the rewards...then what is wrong with a group of janitors negotiating hard-ball to get $100K per year (if they really get that)?

I can't really fault the janitors for trying to get all they can get...maybe there aren't worth $100K, but how many of the CEOs are worth $500Million?

They are both just as greedy and you can't really fault one without the other...the only reason that the unions were able to get $100K paystubs is by getting the management to agree to it...and why does maangement agree to it? Usually because they are just lining there own pockets are really don't care where the money goes, as long as they get there share.

Think about it...is it wrong for a janitor to ask to be overpaid? or is it wrong for management to agree to it?

(Never been in a union, never would join a union, and have little use for unions...just for the record...like I said, just trying to point out the other side of the coin).

 

[Wingnut]

<font color=blue>why does maangement agree to it? </font color=blue>
usually because of a strike ... which means money going out but none coming in. Management never wins the PR war because the media is pro-union (witness how they dote on the teachers union) and anti-business. Well, sometimes they win ... I recall Caterpillar didn't give in to the blackmail.
Besides ... management isn't losing .... who's the ultimate loser? You and I. The media usually forgets to point out who pays tariffs, taxes, salaries, and - ultimately - everyting. You and I, the consumers. Every penny. Every salary, all the graft, every nickel of the business tax. All on top of the sales tax.
Why do I get upset over the overpaid janitor? Because that overpaid janitor ... not the "greedy exec" ... means that if I want to buy a Suburban to transport my boy scout troop around ... I need to spend over $40k. Yeah, I always here how the greedy CEO's cost so much .... but who makes the defective tires? Who throws the marbles in the door panel to annoy the car buyers. Who caused the term "Wednesday car" to be coined? The guy who gets paid to direct the company or the guy on the line?
I am not defending the CEO's compensation. I did state that I thought they were overpaid ... but tried to show that many thousand employees "weighed more" in compensatiuon costs than one CEO. Using the yardstick of value ... yes, there may well be some execs out there worth their inflated salary. Let's take one I despise quite a bit ... Bill Gates. I have a very low opinion of him based on what I think of the products his company puts out ... but does he deserve the compensation he gets from Microsoft? I'd say he deserves every nickel. The company could probably afford to lose almost every employee without as much effect as losing him.
Let's take another I don't think to much of ... Ms. "And That's A Good Thing". Is she worth whatever Martha Steward Co. is paying her? Heck ... she IS the company. Without her fronting for the company ... it ain't worth spit (not that I think it is worth spit .... I'm not a celeb-fawner).
The yardstick, to me, is whether the employee - up at the top of down at the bottom) returns more value to the company that the comensation they receive. If not, the company is going down the tube .... witness all the dot-bombs. Did the average software "engineer" provide in excess of $100k a year to the company? Obviously not ... they're all gone.
Is there a janitor extant (we'll keep attacking these poor folk) who provides $100k of value per year. Hmm ... maybe the ones who taste GWB's food .... or sweep up the anthrax in the post office ... just joking, of course. My perception is ... no .... sweeping a floor or dumping a wastepaper basket can never provide that kind of value .. at least not until you and I are willing to pay $99,999.99 for a cheeseburger ... and I know I'm not that hungry!

So, Mr. Devil's Advocate ... my view is that blackmail is unacceptable ... whether it's union "workers" threatening a strike or North Korea threatening a war. And I can fault the union workers more than the CEO's .... CEO's don't blackmail to keep their jobs at the expense of consumers ... they shuck and jive the Boards of Directors ... who get elected by the stockholders. And get turfed by the Board of necessary ... and the Board members can get turfed (or even sued) by the stockholders. Do we sue the union workers who make the defective parts - tires and the like? No, we penalize the stockholders by suing the corporation.
Me, cynical? nah ....

One last comment ... <font color=blue>is it wrong for a janitor to ask to be overpaid[/blue} .... I've never asked for a raise in my life .... I work my butt off ... provide all the value I possibly can, upgrade my skills on my time at my cost ... and, for some strange reason, my paycheque gets bigger almost every year.

 

[ejb]

>>my view is that blackmail is unacceptable

I agree, but I still fault management for giving in to the union demands, more than I fault the unions for demanding it...of course they are going to demand it, thats what unions are for. Management is supposed to be looking out for the stockholders, the *real* owners of the company...not themselves, and we have found out there examples like worldcom, enron, global crossing, tyco etc etc, the managers were basically just looting the company and providing no value what-so-ever....just making themselves filthy rich.

...and I guess its not a far stretch in my mind for the average joe factory worker/janitor to see the gross excesses and figure, "what the heck, I am gonna get me some of that too".

Management needs to set a good example to.
As cowboydoc has pointed out (either here or over on CBN) it all comes down to greed, greedy managers and greedy union workers. Equally guilty in my book. (and there is plenty of blame to go around)

 

[saw_dust]

<font color=blue>but who makes the defective tires</font color=blue>

Correct me if I am wrong but is the management who was working the striking employees job.Thus my understanding management made the bad tires.

 

[Egon]

Think It was camp 5 and 7 that I worked at for one of the contractors. It was my understanding that some of the survey camps were stocked by jet boats. I wasn't thinking of racing boats.

Egon

 

[Egon]

I keep seeing references to hard work getting a person ahead. Perhaps that should be ammended to efficient work as there is many a hard working soul who never seems to improve his position.

Egon

 

[Wingnut]

I guess it's possible, Egon ... but all the camps I saw had roads to them ... via the gravel road from Grande Priarie to Grand Cache.
I remeber a few cat skinners I knew who learned their trade at the camps ... with different contractors at many of them ... they'd go from one to another gaining experience before someone noticing they had no skills ... until finally they wee knowledgeable enough to keep a job for awhile. Of course, that's how a few cats disappeared into the deep muskeg too ...

Man ... taht's a looooong time ago, isn't it?

Were you building roadbed, working track ... or there in the extremely early stages like I was?

 

[Wingnut]

I wouldn't have thought we'd need to be supplied by jet boat ... our standard means of transportation was Nodwells ... and there's not too many places them tracked turkeys couldn't go!
I remember my first day when one of the instrument guys thought he should send me back for a can of compression ... of course he didn't know I grew up on monkeying with cars and also didn't know I saw him pull the choke (or that I loved to walk in the woods unlike most of the city kids that were on the crew). Gave me a nice 2 hour break walking back to camp, getting a snack at the kitchen and walking back out there.