Our Dependencies

dummy · Jan 7, 2003

People who earn a good living are very loathe to hand it over . Probably just my interpretation of what a good living is, but... In my travels, seems to be that quite a few people are eager to part with their earnings. Small and large ticket items. Couple of examples...near here, there are two gas stations on opposite sides of the road, one charges $1.62 for regular gas and the other charges $1.46, yet the higher priced station stays busier all of the time. Everyone I know in the car business says 9 out of 10 customers don't care what the price of a car is, just how much the payments are. Is that the real answer, most people are buying on credit so as long as they have x credit card payment and x amount monthly payments and they equal what they make, life is good? Almost as if higher prices and bad service are the acceptable norm now. Me, I'll stop at the lower priced station and want to know exactly how much I'm paying for anything that I purchase, but I feel like I'm in the minority on that issue.

cowboydoc · Jan 7, 2003

I agree with you dummy. I'll go out of my way to save money. Nothing makes me madder than someone saying what are you worried about you can afford it. Just because I can afford something doesn't mean I want to pay more than I have to for it.

Kiohio · Jan 7, 2003

Bob, this is a truth that we are seeing unfold right before our own eyes.
Very good post!
KO

Wingnut · Jan 7, 2003

sorry ... I should have been more specific ... I was referring to hand it over to the government for them to use in impoverishing the "rich" to give crumbs to the "poor".
I believe that once people have been exposed to making a good living ... and good is a relative term which would depend on where you are ... they're not likley going to want to go back to pulling rice stalks ....
In other words, the more of the world that gets into consumerism, the less time they'll devote to hating the "haves".
I have to totally agree with you and Richard on spending. Just because I can afford it doesn't mean I want to pay more than I think it's worth. I absolutely HATE those commercials that tell you what the monthly payments are .... I want to know the cost, the tax (which the governemnt will grab as a reward for my having saved for something I want) ... AND what the insurance rates are for that luxury! (and I plan my shopping trips around where I know the cheaper gas stations are!!!)

Wingnut · Jan 7, 2003

KO ... although I disagree with W-H on many points, I have to agree on the knowledge part. He who controls the knowledge controls the heart of the population.
Do you think that all those muslims would hate us if they had knowledge of us beyond what their "religious leaders" tell them?
Do you think the average AfroAmerican would think "reparations" were due him/her if they had knowledge of history beyond what Sharpton and other "religious leaders" tell them?

Religion has not, unfortunately, been a great healer ... but, instead, a methodology for a few (in my opinion, conmen) to imprint their beliefs on the many.
We have Catholics and Protestants killing each other in Ireland. We have Sihks and Muslims and Hindus killing and maiming each other in India (and around Asia Minor). We have muslims of different sects killing each other (Iraq and almost every other muslim nation). And we have muslims everywhere murdering christians to get their alotment of virgins or whatever.
Unfortunately, our history has shown that we're really only comfortable (and civilized) in a tribal context ... whenever one is away from their "tribe", they lose their inhibitions and "civilization". Which is why we keep congregating in tribes ... fraternal lodges, social groups, work groups, and now webgroups. One world ain't gonna happen for a long, long time.
Gosh, I guess I'm a lot more pessimistic that W-H!
But, to end on an upbeat note .... I have to say that I disagree with the "we're not better off" part of your response to W-H. The statistics I see show crime down, teen pregnancies down, drug use down ... in general (some places ARE worse than others, apparently). Some parewnts are rediscovering that their chaildren ARE their responsibility and no longer depend on the It Takes A Village Idiots.
We've weathered a lot of storms ... and "history repeats itself" is an axiom ... not a scientific law. We may yet get things right!

Wingnut · Jan 7, 2003

Ohio? Would that be Marysville?
/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Wingnut · Jan 7, 2003

Richard,
i'm not sure our manufacturing base is become obsolete ... I think it's a case of too many people wanting more for their time and talent than they give back.
When I have to pay $40k +++ for a Suburban because the janitors at GM get $100k a year .... then I start (or continue) to look for a vehicle that's more dependable and costs less.
Back in Canada, the tariff on a pair of jeans from Hong Kong was $17 ... to bring it up to the same price that the Canadian manufacturers charged in order to pay their staff. And the quality the Canadian garment industry put out was lower than the imports ... so even with the tariff people would buy the imported stuff.
The news reports here in Mid-Michigan ... where a lot of the automotive fcatories are ... repeatedly report tha tthe average salary of GM employees is $100k. I dunno .... seems to me when you price yourself out of the market ... and repeatly use blackmail (strikes) to get more ... the manufacturer is going to take the factory elsewhere.
I don;t know if the US will fall .... but it's certainly working hard to beome another Sweden (where your taxes can easily exceed your income!)

Kiohio · Jan 7, 2003

Alot of the problems with "religion". Is the fact that the followers (of bad leaders) do not have the knowledge of the religion. Very few religions actually condone murder. Yet as you have said they're all out killing each other. So knowledge IS power! I just hope the knowledgable ones are also the SMART ones.

But, to end on an upbeat note .... I have to say that I disagree with the "we're not better off" part of your response to W-H. The statistics I see show crime down, teen pregnancies down, drug use down ... in general (some places ARE worse than others, apparently). Some parewnts are rediscovering that their chaildren ARE their responsibility and no longer depend on the It Takes A Village Idiots.

I don't believe the stats. I think it's all part of our feel-good governments way of making everything seem perfect. All you have to do is talk to the kids of today and just see what is really going on. Talk to people that work with them everyday. When teachers get slapped, punched and poisoned, I don't think it's getting better. Then the kid gets suspended and in comes ma and pa saying you aren't going to suspend my little Johnny. I've been there and watched it happen. Go to schools and observe what's being talked about. It's scary.

For the sake of our youth I do hope that the stats are correct.

We've weathered a lot of storms ... and "history repeats itself" is an axiom ... not a scientific law. We may yet get things right!

I hope you are correct.

KO

cowboydoc · Jan 7, 2003

I agree with you wingnut. I think the unions are 99% of the problem. Sure people deserve to be paid a fair wage but when a non-educated union worker is pulling down six figure incomes for cleaning toilets something is wrong. It all comes back to greed again. Everyone these days, from the individual to the corporate level, looks at making the big kill. They don't look at it anymore as working x amount of years and saving, etc. And who blames them when you see your life savings go up in smoke on the worldcoms and enrons. Too much living for today and nobody thinking about the consequences of tomorrow. Gone are the days when you saved and made a modest percentage on your investments. Everybody wants to double their money every year now. Alot of problems with the way things are for sure.

I think our govt. is the biggest culprits. This land deal of mine is a perfect example. I'm probably going to sell this 250 acres for a huge profit. It's not something I wanted to do but something they are basically forcing me to do to get a higher tax base and put up a housing. No I don't have to but I'm sure as heck not going to pay the taxes every year just to make a point. Instead of cutting back and making do with what they have the govt., on all levels, just keeps expanding and looking for new places to get the money from, ie more taxes. And forget changing it when it costs millions anymore to run a campaign. The average Joe's like us are never going to be able to be in office and make the common sense decisions. Too many people on the gravy train for sure.

I'm not a pessimist for sure. I work hard and try to change things as much as I can. But it doesn't take much looking to see the writing on the wall. Just to show you what I'm talking about the following is an email that I got. I enquired about a ranch out in Idaho in anticipation of this other land selling. To avoid more taxes I'm going to have to re-invest it. Here's what the realtor wrote me back when I asked him about how the place cash flowed.

Dr. Richard Leavitt,
The owner of the ranch has never told me what he earns off of the property. As I have been in ranch sales over the years, most
ranch properties don't cash flow but offer a life style and other attractions for the buyers. The seller farms approximately 200 acres
in hay and pasture. There is water for 183 acres from a private ditch. It's located 2-3 miles from the mountains. The seller has raised 200 mother cows, calves with some outside pasture leased.
Sincerely,
Fred Glemser
----- Original Message -----
From: Dr. Richard Leavitt
To: glemser
Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 6:07 AM
Subject: Re: 1080 acre ranch

Hello,

What I would really like to know are the specifics on the land. What was farmed, what were the yields, how many acres can be farmed, crp possibilities, how many cattle it supports, income from the ranch, etc. How close to the mountains? What I really want to see is how the place cash flows.

Thanks,
Richard

Pretty sad to me that even the realtor trying to sell the place is basically saying it's not going to make any money you're just buying the place for fun. That says to me we're overcharging for this place as it's not going to make any money.

Wingnut · Jan 7, 2003

yep ... reminds you of the old joke about a farmer winning a million bucks in the lottery. When asked what he would do with it he replied "keep farming until it's all gone"

I too blame the government. We've gone from small government supplying essential (well, in their mind) services to government for government's sake. 'We the people" my eye!

RobertN · Jan 7, 2003

It don't matter your brand; it's the feeling of being in the wind/w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif If you're ever out thisaway, we'll have to ride! There's great riding here in the Calif Gold Country; Highway 49 runs through the core of it. In fact, we'd even be able to ride over and say hey to Harv, and to Rat!

I love my Harley, and wouldn't own anything else('cept maybe an early Indian, or one of the new Polaris'). I won't begrudge anyone for wanting to ride though, regardless of brand.

JATO_RaT · Jan 7, 2003

Robert as you well know, the ride from your house to mine is not that far distance wise, but Highway 49 is surely a treat on a bike and does take a little time. Perhaps the Highway 193 through Georgetown is another possibility. Its some great country, today would have been a prime day to go for a little joyride, 61 degrees and pure sun.

Trev · Jan 7, 2003

Secondly, being a little different by my nature, I see a better world, different, sure, but better. One of the things that's so good about us as human beings is we always come up with a solution that works and works well for any problem that confronts us.

I see the world a bit differently too.. and one thing that strikes me is that we have to get all of our eggs out of this one basket. We should be colonizing other planets by now. Someday I hope to have someone ask me "Where are you from?" And my reply will be "Earth. It's the third planet out from a small G4 star in such-and-such quandrant." And they'll say "Wow.. it's a small Universe isn't it? I knew someone from there!" /w3tcompact/icons/laugh.gif

Okay, call me nuts. But that's my "vision" of mankinds future if we're to survive as a species.

Bob

rancar · Jan 7, 2003

Here's some interesting notables about manufacturing activity in China.

<A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.village2000.com/context/main/crystal/messages/138022.html>Manufacturing All Going To China</A>

saw_dust · Jan 7, 2003

When I have to pay $40k +++ for a Suburban because the janitors at GM get $100k a year 

The greedy over paid CEO's and management are not part of the problem are they?

saw_dust · Jan 7, 2003

I think the unions are 99% of the problem.

everyone and everything else else is only 1 %,but not the (AMA)

when you see your life savings go up in smoke on the worldcoms and enrons

those darn uneducated union workers caused the poor educated innocent CEO's to steal.

non-educated union worker is pulling down six figure incomes 

I think our govt. is the biggest culprits they must be union too...

Wow....I am glad I am not union....

Anonymous Poster · Jan 7, 2003

Hi,

Had to go back to the top of this thread to see what it was all about after reading everything!

Maybe we could report back with the things that shock you the most.

For me...

After being on the same page as Wroughtn Harv...I concluded my contribution to the thread would be the thing that shocks me the most!

Since getting my tractor, I now only want to plan vacations when the weather is worst here! Priority now is to be home when the weather is tip top tractor good!

Only problem is the wife...but I'm sure she will come around if I throw her a bone or something /w3tcompact/icons/smile.gif.

"Dang this rain, and dang this waisted day" has more meaning than ever now.../w3tcompact/icons/grin.gif

Sorry for such a serious post, but somebody had to do it! /w3tcompact/icons/blush.gif

Bill in Pgh, PA

jhburke · Jan 7, 2003

I agree with you about these ads only noting how much a month, but not how many months of those payments. I just traded trucks last month and all the salesman kept coming at me with " it will be only xxx a month" . I told them it I drove off their lot with other than the truck I dove in with it would be paid for and mine. Also those who keep telling you to not worry about what it costs because you can afford it. I tell them the only reason I can afford to live as I do is because I watch what and how much I spend. I am trying to pay as I go. In Oct of 2001 I traded for my B7500. They delivered it on a wedsday and on the following tuesday I had open heart surgery. The first 5 months I owned it all I could do was look at it. It was much nicer not having to worry about payments on it.

bgott · Jan 8, 2003

That link asks for a user name and password.

Wingnut · Jan 8, 2003

I have no intent of excusing CEO's .... but my math indicates there's one CEO ... and tens of thousands of hourly workers.
Let's see, we'll take a company I'm familiar with. CEO makes 7 mill a year (6.5 more than I think he should make) ... 7 mill divied by 50,000 workers equals $140 each. Now ... the janitor makes $100k and is providing what value ... $10k? $20k? How many janitors?
My math says that the extreme overpayment of the CEO makes a pretty small drip in the bucket when you add up the rest. Heck, the year before last I got a 22% bonus ... if the average bonus was anywhere near that ... the company paid out 3/4 of a BILLION in bonuses. Of that, the CEO got 3 million or so .... 3/750 or 0.4%.
Sorry for all the math .... I just want to point out that a great many overpaid workers (who like to strike for even more) contribute more to the bottom line than one or two or three or four execs. Do you really think it's the salaries of the execs that got United into hat water?
And, no, I'm NOT an exec ... not even middle management, I just use an awful lot of math in my job ... and commonly work in the millions - so I have no problem understanding cost/value analysis.